Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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SmurfMustard said:
Since you seem in the know considering game development, I guess from experience, do you think those 18-24 months are needed because of the pandemic or because you think 343 are incompetent.
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A bit of both. I'll do a quick breakdown of what still needs work from what was shown

Animation Systems
Characters
Facial
  • Eg Craig but also mouth motion from pilot character and other characters
  • character models don't seem to blink and eyes are static given they have eyelids
  • no nostril flaring by villain many slight vertical stretch on the lower section and 1-2 upper nose vertical movements when the eyebrows move
Reaction animations
  • Brute's like Craig had no reaction to the following instances:
  • Being shot at once leaving the drop capsule they went straight in to a predetermined animation despite being shot at straight away
  • No reaction to when sticky bomb or grenade was attached to brute with jetpack he just looked like the guy from Weekend at bernie's being lifted up by a pully system from a 3rd rate stage play and then there was no body/physical reaction to the explosion he just basically dropped to the ground
  • Blue brutes not reacting to impact of weapon shots like it was a light not a lazer hitting them (same for Godfall with the animations of the weapons should have impact and even alter one's attack from player to npc)

Environment
  • The lack of Atmosphere in the games environment lead to a lack of wind animations from trees blowing and bending and branches moving dynamically as well as the grass not having any dynamic movement
  • I'll add this here the drop pods actually don't seem to physically crumble as they impact the ground when landing its just 1 model then in a frame transition to crashed model it should have some transitions of at least 2-3 more stages of destruction
  • Clouds in the background are static for the foremost they don't shift in shape or move in the direction or the rotation or wind and there is wind as there are small gusts you see when the pilot falls to his knees at the end of the cutscene
  • no physical destruction done to the world or structures in explosions to gun blasts no impact or "bullet hole effects"
  • lazers should of also had impact on the warthog car from destruction and particle effects to potentially altering the cars jump
  • the small ships in the air have less weight and subtle movement in them than a helium balloon (with the subtle movement think like the little darts of movement an eye does slight shifts and drops should occur otherwise it just looks on rails)
Some of the animations could be hand done but likely some would have some motion capture done for that more authentic look but given the Covid situation this would be 1 of the factors that could hinder the timeframe since motion capture for games has come to a halt because of the health risks so there so one of the things that isn't 343i's fault.

Lighting and texturing

Lighting
  • Sub surface lighting/scattering is lacking in in the skin and material textures giving the game the look of flat static saturated look.
  • They strangely give the villain character a plastic glossy mouth with his teeth looking unnatural
  • The lack of lighting texture also gives the trees and grass a "1 dimensional look"
  • muzzle flashes on the guns chief uses is sometimes there depending on the weapon or shot fired
  • the ships engines burning should have some flickering of the flames in bursts as again looks static and lifeless as well as some glow around the ships engine like a muzzle flash
Maybe some of the lighting is what will resolve with the ray tracing patching but still some basic practices are missing

the lighting during the warthog scene in the mud was ok but still well behind Uncharted 4 levels of details and quality from animation lighting and deformation effects

Shadows are missing here and there as well like the muzzle flashes its just about the inconsistencies

Textures
  • Some of this kind of relates to the lighting and saturation levels such as trees, grass and character and environment model textures
  • Low res textures in midground and background really stand out same with the quality of the trees
  • Some of the metal textures seem exaggerated especially when chief pushes the button triggering the holographic villain which was like an older technique 2 gens ago now
  • the geometry or the hexagon pillars are well very flat and lazy environment level design
  • the grass has group pop in and out based on player movement where large square section of will pop in or pop out when Chief moves right after exiting the spaceship
  • cloud and background pop in and the fog fade shouldn't be that drastic and so up close to the foreground
  • main villain agains skin and hair textures are very rough and lack a genuine look
  • hair doesn't seem to move so again very static like the environments outside given that again using Uncharted 4 as a comparison Nathan Drake's chest hair move in the wind
  • pilots backback thing lacks real texture quality comparing it to Ellie's backpack in The Last of us Part II with the level of detail
  • no cloth texture on the pilots outfit static clothing model
  • villains forehead seems too symmetrical/mirror imaged which is an unnatural thing in reality
  • all the textures look very dry skin textures in particular

This is just a quick list of things that could use some work

My game design skills are a bit old school I've developed 3 games 2 using RPG Maker XP and 1 game for Autistic children, I have also done hand animation, 3D/4D modeling for construction projects. I've been fortunate enough to attend an EA Sports event for NBA Live 18 and help give feedback on their games as well as be secret/unlockable characters in other games. I started off modding the Blackhawk Down game then moved in to modding NBA Live on PC creating a lot of varied patches and worked hard on developing realistic textures in materials for the mods I did from 2002-2009.
 
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ToadMan said:
This is increasingly a pitch to put Gamepass on PlayStation isn't it?

I don't think Sony are gonna be interested in doing that but MS are certainly going hard on that message right now.
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Gamepass on Playstation loses any 3rd party deals it has because Sony will want that money. It would ONLY be MS games and people here don't like MS games. MS would gain little from putting Gamepass on Playstation. They do that a platform of their own they can use thankfully.
 
Phil Spencer talking about how sellings lots of XSX units is not a priority also makes me think its pretty expensive. Lots of rumors pointing to 599 now, I think it may be true. I'm hoping for a XSS at 299 though, could be sweet.
 
DarkMage619 said:
Gamepass on Playstation loses any 3rd party deals it has because Sony will want that money. It would ONLY be MS games and people here don't like MS games. MS would gain little from putting Gamepass on Playstation. They do that a platform of their own they can use thankfully.
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What MS gain from putting GP on PlayStation is the savings from no longer developing custom hardware. Xsex is looking increasingly like the last custom hardware box they put out.

I'm fairly confident that MS would sell enough subscriptions to GP/xcloud to make it worth it to them. Sony on the other hand, are probably resistant to the idea for now.
 
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ArcaneNLSC said:
Do you think for next generation that Microsoft will try and do what Valve did with the steambox and just get 3rd parties to create the next xboxes by licensing the name Xbox and just make their money off that and services like gamepass?
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I think that's what was planning since Xbox one launch. Remember the all digital pre launch communication before a 180.
I would not surprise that after XSX there will be no next hardware from Xbox.
 
ArcaneNLSC said:
A bit of both. I'll do a quick breakdown of what still needs work from what was shown

SNIP
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Thank you for your answer, a very detailed read. But you have to admit that some points are very nitpicky (villains forehead too symmetrical) and some are just opinions.
I too think, what was shown of Halo was nowhere where it should have been for a once-to-be launch title. This really should have been something to get people excited. I just can't imagine that something that was meant for console launch a few weeks ago, would now take another 2 years to finish.
 
kyliethicc said:
Well Xbox claims they don't need all 13.5 for their GPU, and the other 3.5 @ 336 is plenty for CPU. I assume that's true.

PS5 is simpler I guess, all the ram is the same. Use it however. But their overall bandwidth might be a bit slower than ideal. Sweet spot for cost and speed seems like it would have been 512 GB/s, using 16 Gbps GDDR6.
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Woud the last patent by ND and Cerny, if implemented, save on bandwidth requirement. Goes on about compressing vertices and shaders and combining 2 into 32 bits to GPU.....

Also with a fast and slow pool, it depends on the amount of cycles in each frame accessing each part, people thingah CPU only needs 56 GBs, but if you are spending 40 % of the frame on CPU then its a big cost on average frame bandwidth assiming slow pool is CPU and audio.
 
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SmurfMustard said:
Thank you for your answer, a very detailed read. But you have to admit that some points are very nitpicky (villains forehead too symmetrical) and some are just opinions.
I too think, what was shown of Halo was nowhere where it should have been for a once-to-be launch title. This really should have been something to get people excited. I just can't imagine that something that was meant for console launch a few weeks ago, would now take another 2 years to finish.
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I did put 1-2 points that yeah were kind of nitpicky yes but you got to remember there are imperfections everywhere with the humanoid body 1 hand is slightly bigger than the other both ears are shaped differently 1 foot is longer than the other 1 breast is usually bigger than the other. people's eyes aren't exactly equal height (one of my eyes is quite a lot lower than the other as example). Then there's blemishes such as birth marks, freckles, moles and scars
 
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Darklor01 said:
Well, you did say usually.. We all know PS3 eventually got to about even with X360 by the end of the gen.

Here are some possibilities about his vision:

A) He's way off base and Xbox Will fail the gen, at least for a long time.

B) If it's their last console, it will be a streaming and service platform only.

C) We just don't understand his vision.

D) He's completely whacked in the head and should not be in charge.

No matter what the situation is, I always recommend not professing optionsS facts. it rarely ends well.

For the record, in case anyone is wondering about my allegiance... I'm a gaming fan. I buy both consoles and want both to do well. I mainly play on PS because most of the people I've played with for years are on PlayStation. This gen, mainly on PS4, last gen, mainly on X360.
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PS3 didn't have bad first year sales though, it's first year was just a year late. It still sold 14 million or thereabouts.
 
ArcaneNLSC said:
I did put 1-2 points that yeah were kind of nitpicky yes but you got to remember there are imperfections everywhere with the humanoid body 1 hand is slightly bigger than the other both ears are shaped differently 1 foot is longer than the other 1 breast is usually bigger than the other. people's eyes aren't exactly equal height (one of my eyes is quite a lot lower than the other as example). Then there's blemishes such as birth marks, freckles, moles and scars
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Great inputs. Coudl you enlighten us on your thoughts on the Naughty dog patent, goes into comoression of vertices and shaders (no none talks about it on here as its a bit complex)

U.S. Patent for Scheme for compressing vertex shader output parameters Patent (Patent # 10,740,867 issued August 11, 2020) - Justia Patents Search

A graphics processing may include implementing a vertex shader and a pixel shader with a GPU. Vertex parameter values may be compressed with the vertex shader and compressed vertex parameter values may be written to a cache. The pixel shader may access the compressed vertex parameter values that...
patents.justia.com patents.justia.com
 
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I hope Sony will never allow gamepass on ps, if MS want to put their exclusives on ps then fine just like other 3rd parties, but keep your gamepass to your Xbox thanks, without mentioning Sony already has something similar called ps now.
 
Nickolaidas said:
I get what he's saying though. He's saying that MS is getting your dollar, whether you buy an XSX or not, as long as you buy MS games or subscribe to Game Pass.
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Yeah but people tend to forget that MS earns way more money when you play your games on one of their consoles instead of Win10...

They get a cut from every digital sale on the console, on PC there's no Xbox Live Gold needed and they might earn more from a console sale than a Win10 license...
 
DarkMage619 said:
How about PS3 to X360? That could happen too right?
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You mean this right?

2005-06
Xbox 360 $300/400
PS3 $500/600

The less recent a behavior is, the less indicative it is of future behavior. When predicting prices, looking at the prices of hardware from 14 or 15 years ago is not very useful, but sure, technically, anything is possible. Maybe the new consoles will ship with wired controllers and no storage drives either.

Pricing from 3 or 7 years ago is much more likely to be repeated in 2020 than the prices of outdated and rather old systems. There will be PS5/XSX buyers who weren't even alive in 2005.

But to each their own, I guess.
 
ArcaneNLSC said:
I could take a wild guess. My game design experience was basically 2D sprites and haven't really made anything regarding video games since 2009ish.
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Sorry I linked the wrong one, its a Sunday morning :messenger_beaming:

U.S. Patent for Scheme for compressing vertex shader output parameters Patent (Patent # 10,740,867 issued August 11, 2020) - Justia Patents Search

A graphics processing may include implementing a vertex shader and a pixel shader with a GPU. Vertex parameter values may be compressed with the vertex shader and compressed vertex parameter values may be written to a cache. The pixel shader may access the compressed vertex parameter values that...
patents.justia.com patents.justia.com

One challenge associated with processing graphics in the pipeline is that certain bottlenecks may occur and slow down performance as data is input and output to the various shaders in the pipeline.

In some implementations, the method may include interpolating the decompressed vertex parameter values with the pixel shader

In some implementations, accessing the compressed vertex parameter values includes copying the compressed vertex parameter values from the cache to a local memory unit of a GPU, and accessing the compressed vertex parameter values from the local memory unit with the pixel shader.

In some implementations, the vertex parameter values include parameter values of all three vertices of a triangle primitive

In some implementations, compressing the vertex parameter values includes storing two floating point numbers together as one value having twice as many bits as each of the two floating point numbers.

In some implementations, compressing the vertex parameter values includes storing two 16-bit floating point numbers together as one 32-bit value.
Click to expand...
 
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SSfox said:
I hope Sony will never allow gamepass on ps, if MS want to put their exclusives on ps then fine just like other 3rd parties, but keep your gamepass to your Xbox thanks, without mentioning Sony already has something similar called ps now.
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I'm pretty sure a lot of PS owners would be happy to subscribe to Game Pass if they were given the choice.
 
No way ps5 will be more than 499.

Regarding Xbox sex who knows what crazy phill and his team are cooking up? Maybe they will price sex at 599 if they think series s can hold up to ps5 and undercut it by 100 at 399 (no way with the rumored specs it will be 299).

Of course as I see it it would be crazy to go this way but the two skus strategy may imply that.. maybe this will be the final act in the suicidal Xbox crusade coming next gen..
 
ToadMan said:
What MS gain from putting GP on PlayStation is the savings from no longer developing custom hardware. Xsex is looking increasingly like the last custom hardware box they put out.

I'm fairly confident that MS would sell enough subscriptions to GP/xcloud to make it worth it to them. Sony on the other hand, are probably resistant to the idea for now.
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w
Wait and see. The business model of selling hardware vs services is not a problem. The problem is whatever the hell you try to sell, you need content.
 
jose4gg said:
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PlayStation 5 [OT] Taking Over The World One SSD At A Time

Holy crap, yes. So taken back by the FS theory that I missed that Crunchyroll and Funimation could become 1 thing and thus making Sony the Anime powerhouse and the PS5 the weeb machine... That's another megabomba in owning an entire market! It's a great thing to be in because comics have...
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😂
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these threads...
C-658VsXoAo3ovC.jpg
 
Killer Sakoman said:
w
Wait and see. The business model of selling hardware vs services is not a problem. The problem is whatever the hell you try to sell, you need content.
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Yeah totally agree. The hardware is a means to an end.

As it happens MS don't have any 1st party content and while Sony has more it's not exactly mind blowing. Then there's the third party exclusives propping up these launches - they're not setting a high standard either.

I really had hoped Sony would confirm something extra for launch or launch window. GT7 would've been huge and they showed more gameplay from that than anything else back in June.

But as each week passes without those confirmations I get less and less convinced that Sony is going to show any more than it has so far.

What would be very bad news is if SM:MM is also delayed...
 
geordiemp said:
It never made sense that Xbox fans keep saying XSX was going to be cheaper, they should be saying its worth 700 bucks so when price does come in it looks better value.
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Economics 101 innit.

I remember reading something by Bill Bryson about KFC. When they released the "extra crispy" chicken they priced it the same as regular chicken and sales were poor. So they rebranded it as a luxury product, made it more expensive and it was a best-seller.
People are fucking weird.
 
Handy Fake said:
Economics 101 innit.

I remember reading something by Bill Bryson about KFC. When they released the "extra crispy" chicken they priced it the same as regular chicken and sales were poor. So they rebranded it as a luxury product, made it more expensive and it was a best-seller.
People are fucking DUMB!!!
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FtfY
 
ArcaneNLSC said:
Do you think for next generation that Microsoft will try and do what Valve did with the steambox and just get 3rd parties to create the next xboxes by licensing the name Xbox and just make their money off that and services like gamepass?
Click to expand...

They could call it XBX! X Box X. Why? Remember MSX?

en.wikipedia.org

MSX - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

MSX is a standardized home computer architecture, announced by Microsoft and ASCII on June 16, 1983.[1][2] It was initially conceived by Microsoft as a product for the Eastern sector, and jointly marketed by Kazuhiko Nishi, then vice-president at Microsoft and director at ASCII Corporation.[3] Microsoft and Nishi conceived the project as an attempt to create unified standards among various home computing system manufacturers of the period, in the same fashion as the VHS standard for home video tape machines.[4][5]

MSX systems were popular in Japan and several other countries. Sony was the primary manufacturer of MSX systems at the time of release, and throughout most of the products lifespan, producing more units than any other manufacturer. Eventually 5 million MSX-based units were sold in Japan alone. Despite Microsoft's involvement, few MSX-based machines were released in the United States.
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kyliethicc said:
Well Xbox claims they don't need all 13.5 for their GPU, and the other 3.5 @ 336 is plenty for CPU. I assume that's true.

PS5 is simpler I guess, all the ram is the same. Use it however. But their overall bandwidth might be a bit slower than ideal. Sweet spot for cost and speed seems like it would have been 512 GB/s, using 16 Gbps GDDR6.
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I don't think devs would like XSX setup, when you think about it, if they want 10GB+ of VRAM it must be a pain in the ass to manage those different bandwidths. I'm no dev though. I still remember Cerny's Road to PS4 when he says something like "simpler is better".
 
beni12 said:
after PS3 launch, there won't be any consoles that cost more than 499$ and it's not like Xbox One or One X were a hit at that price. the reason of their silence is considering a lower price point.
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599$ PS5
499$ Series X
499$ PS5D
399$ Series S

Sony cooling solution is very expensive and they are done selling consoles at a loss.
 
Metroiddarks said:
The next game of Rockstar will looks ridiculous good with the raytracing solutions, just see this graphic programer of Rockstar
making/using its debugging tool, I cannot wait.


Click to expand...


I just replied to him. It would be great if they can extend their shaders to more movie quality functionality. Hopefully we'll finally start to see some anisotropic highlighting instead of just basic isotropic.
 
geordiemp said:
Sorry I linked the wrong one, its a Sunday morning :messenger_beaming:

U.S. Patent for Scheme for compressing vertex shader output parameters Patent (Patent # 10,740,867 issued August 11, 2020) - Justia Patents Search

A graphics processing may include implementing a vertex shader and a pixel shader with a GPU. Vertex parameter values may be compressed with the vertex shader and compressed vertex parameter values may be written to a cache. The pixel shader may access the compressed vertex parameter values that...
patents.justia.com patents.justia.com
Click to expand...

You didn't share this with the rest of us. What is it that you don't understand in the patent?
 
VFXVeteran said:
You didn't share this with the rest of us. What is it that you don't understand in the patent?
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I understand the patent meaning, what i wanted to discuss was the benefits but got no takers. My take was this could help memory access for ray tracing and Fp16 if on ps5...

I am more hardware background....Whats your take ?
 
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hemo memo said:
599$ PS5
499$ Series X
499$ PS5D
399$ Series S

Sony cooling solution is very expensive and they are done selling consoles at a loss.
Click to expand...

I think 599 is just too high, this awful COVID shit has brought the world to its knees, people are poor atm, recovering, Sony knows this, a 600-pound console is a bridge too far, surely.

499
450 for the diskless is my bet.
 
ToadMan said:
This is increasingly a pitch to put Gamepass on PlayStation isn't it?

I don't think Sony are gonna be interested in doing that but MS are certainly going hard on that message right now.
Click to expand...

That will make sense when MS is the one producing most of the content in it instead of being 99% third party.

hemo memo said:
599$ PS5
499$ Series X
499$ PS5D
399$ Series S

Sony cooling solution is very expensive and they are done selling consoles at a loss.
Click to expand...

You should look at their earnings and calculate how much are they getting from the hardware.
 
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Moridianae said:
AAAARRRRGH. BACK AGAIN.

I always feel like whenever this happens,, here comes more about how "next-gen isn't next-gen because Pee. Cee"
yBZR4bZ.jpg


PC is better. Great. Its always going to be better. We know that. The real question is-

Where is Silent Hill? Is it real for PS5 or has it lost all credibility since Dusk fell apart?
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Oh balls, I didn't even put those two together.
 
sircaw said:
I feel a shift in the force with you, young one.
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Jokes aside, I just like to armchair the business strategies and I'm a bit mystified by this line of marketing. The only thing I can figure is that they are going to switch gears from the power marketing to value marketing, in which case maybe they really don't care about XSX sales if they think XSS is going to be their bread and butter.

If Spencer breaks out Melania's jacket, I'm not sure what to think then. LOL
 
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