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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
That dude insulted me a month ago and nothing was done, so figured it was OK. Dude in general can barely type a post without condescending.
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Insane Metal
Member
This what?
TrippleA345
Member
Anyone else notice that in the June PS5 event they snuck the boy Mark in at the end?
Shuhei Yoshida is much better, In the end, like an excited child, he raises his hand
sircaw
Banned
Wrong fucking STICKS DAMN U
kyliethicc
Member
I didn't say that, you misquoted me.
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MasterCornholio
Member
I haven't had those in such a long time. Your making me crave them now.
MasterCornholio
Member
It's never ok to result to personal attacks. If you have an issue with a user report or ignore.
Why do you think I have users like E eastwood333 on ignore?
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Fixed, sorry.
Tonidayo
Member
please refresh previous page
sircaw
Banned
YOU WANT FUCKING INSULTS I WILL..........................................
chill dude, dudette.
Let me sooth your inner beast
sing with me.
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jimbojim
Banned
Some people should read this crap over and over why variable are better than fixed clocks. It was mentioned before, why not repeat it over and over :
"
Sony did tell us how their design works. The thing you're missing is that the PS5 approach is not just letting clocks be variable, like uncapping a framerate. That would indeed have no effect on the lowest dips in frequency. But they've also changed the trigger for throttling from temperature to silicon activity. And that actually changes how much power can be supplied to the chip without issues. This is because the patterns of GPU power needs aren't straightforward.
Here's a depiction of the change. (This is not real data, just for illustrative purposes of the general principle.) The blue line represents power draw over time, for profiled game code. The solid orange line represents the minimum power supply that would need to be used for this profile. Indeed, actual power draw must stay well below the rated capacity. Power supplies function best when actually drawing ~80% of their rating. And when designing a console the architects, working solely from current code, will build in a buffer zone to accommodate ever more demanding scenarios projected for years down the line.
You'd think the tallest peaks, highlighted in yellow, would be when the craziest visuals are happening onscreen in the game: many characters, destruction, smoke, lights, etc. But in fact, that's often not the case. Such impressive scenes are so complicated, the calculations necessary to render them bump into each other and stall briefly. Every transistor on the GPU may need to be in action, but some have to wait on work, so they don't all flip with every tick of the clock. So those scenes, highlighted in pink, don't contain the greatest spikes. (Though note that their sustained need is indeed higher.)
Instead, the yellow peaks are when there's work that's complex enough to spread over the whole chip, but just simple enough that it can flow smoothly without tripping over itself. Unbounded framerates can skyrocket, or background processes cycle over and over without meaningful effect. The useful work could be done with a lot less energy, but because clockspeed is fixed, the scenes blitz as fast as possible, spiking power draw.
Sony's approach is to sense for these abnormal spikes in activity, when utilization explodes, and preemptively reduce clockspeed. As mentioned, even at the lower speed, these blitz events are still capable of doing the necessary work. The user sees no quality loss. But now behind the scenes, the events are no longer overworking the GPU for no visible advantage.
But now we have lots of new headroom between our highest spikes and the power supply buffer zone. How can we easily use that? Simply by raising the clockspeed until the highest peaks are back at the limit. Since total power draw is a function of number of transistors flipped, times how fast they're flipping, the power drawn rises across the board. But now, the non-peak parts of your code have more oomph. There's literally more computing power to throw at the useful work. You can increase visible quality for the user in all the non-blitz scenes, which is the vast majority of the game.
Look what that's done. The heaviest, most impressive scenarios are now closer to the ceiling, meaning these most crucial events are leaving fewer resources untapped. The variability of power draw has gone down, meaning it's easier to predictively design a cooling solution that remains quiet more often. You're probably even able to reduce the future proofing buffer zone, and raise speed even more (though I haven't shown that here). Whatever unexpected spikes do occur, they won't endanger power stability (and fear of them won't push the efficiency of all work down in the design phase, only reduce the spikes themselves). All this without any need to change the power supply, GPU silicon, or spend time optimizing the game code.
Keep in mind that these pictures are for clarity, and specifics about exactly how much extra power is made available, how often and far clockspeed may dip, etc. aren't derivable from them. But I think the general idea comes through strongly. It shows why, though PS5's GPU couldn't be set to 2GHz with fixed clocks, that doesn't necessarily mean it must still fall below 2 GHz sometimes. Sony's approach changes the power profile's shape, making different goals achievable.
I'll end with this (slowly) animated version of the above.
PlayStation 5 System Architecture Deep Dive |OT| Secret Agent Cerny OT
Sony did tell us how their design works. The thing you're missing is that the PS5 approach is not just letting clocks be variable, like uncapping a framerate. That would indeed have no effect on the lowest dips in frequency. But they've also changed the trigger for throttling from temperature to...
www.resetera.com
Zoro7
Banned
You've been very condescending these last few pages. And you've been insulting. So how are you any better exactly?
kyliethicc
Member
I did reply to your question about PS5 clocks. I think it's pretty easy to understand. No need to fight over this stuff.
MasterCornholio
Member
Sorry if already posted, just saw this pop up
I wouldn't trust Roberto with this. But those prices do seem likely. However I'm worried that the actual price for the XSX might be higher.
Insane Metal
Member
Oh, don't mind that dude, he posts nonsense as rumors/speculation all the time. What he posted is pretty much what the majority of people expect.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Why in the world do you think this contradicts, any of my posts, in any way?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sorry if already posted, just saw this pop up
Could someone imagine buying XSS for the same price as PS5DE? You need to be brain-dead.
Of course, nothing official.
geordiemp
Member
Becasue your talkiing systained clocks. Posters get frustrated because we are repeating the same stuff all the time to the same question.
Yes, you cannot sustain clocks correctly with AVX and with map screen as its repeating small triangles and that creates heat. In that context its correct, but you know every poster does not use that context....and you know exactly why as well.
Yes 2 Ghz would not work running AVX and furmark lol, probably would shut down XSX too at 1.8 Ghz eventually....its not healthy code.
So variable clocks, 2.23 Ghz and 3.5 Ghz will be met when it matters, playing a game with CPU and gPU doing stuff in a frame. CPU does calcs, GPU draws stuff and complex geometry that changes around as your playing....
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kyliethicc
Member
I agree with what you're saying, and I think I understand the PS5 variable approach to clock speeds. Seems smart.
Why did you quote me exactly? Did I say something that was incorrect? Because I might have lol.
You seem to know much more on this than I do, so I'm genuinely asking here, not trying to argue.
MasterCornholio
Member
Could someone imagine buying XSS for the same price as PS5DE? You need to be brain-dead.
Of course, nothing official.
The only way I can see that happening is if Microsoft thinks the PS5 DE is 499$.
I guess this is why they both are reluctant to give us the price. It would be a disaster if the PS5 DE is priced the same as the Xbox Series S.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Why did you quote me? I never said fixed clocks were better.. in fact I think variable clocks are.
Oh I missed that huh?
IntentiaonlPun said:
kyliethicc
Member
deleted. nevermind.
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chilichote
Member
If you click on the link to the tweet, you can see that he has corrected in the comments the price for the XSeS to 299$.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
So... what you are saying is..
Variable clocks allow you to push beyond what you could do on a fixed clock setup. Because you could never "fix clocks" as high as a variable clock can go.
That's...literally....all...I've...been...saying.
Why are you so offended by the word "sustained"? That's literally the point of fixing clocks.. you fix them at the performance you believe you can actually sustain without frying the entire thing.
With variable clocks you can go higher than you could with a sustained clock setup, as a sustained clock setup is leaving performance on the table in scenarios where increasing clocks would benefit the code, but not cause thermal issues.
It's like you hear the word sustained and think I'm some Xbot promoting "sustained performance" over "variable performance" when I never said that at all..
jimbojim
Banned
Do you have link for that quote?
Yeah, Tidux just repeats what Matt said or someone from that thread on ERA.
Bunch of other posts what Tidux said is from that thread
MasterCornholio
Member
I was just speculating on what would happen if it's 399$. But I still stand that it would be very bad for the Series S if it's priced the same as the PS5 DE. I don't think that will happen though because Microsoft will eat the cost if they have to. Unless they truly don't care about the competition.
Edit: Misquoted
IntentionalPun
no idea how it messed up.
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geordiemp
Member
OK I apologise, I have answered that question maybe 50 times on GAF so I do get a bit short on the subject.
Yes sustained boost or ps5 will fall down with furmark or map screens simple geometry looping fast, and it is good that it does that and healthy IMO .
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jimbojim
Banned
No, no. Not at all. Both of you didn't do nothing wrongly. My post was in addition to your post as a reaction like yours posts referred to crap about fixed clocks.
kyliethicc
Really, i'm not more educational than you. Maybe you're better than me. Just i'm trying to understand some things. Also, like bunch of others are doing, saying what others said across the net.
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chilichote
Member
Sorry, only saw the conversation about that tweet^^
I don't believe it's only 299€ - it has more power than OneX. So maybe 399€ is right but if the PS5DE is 399€ too, than XSeS is DOA^^
geordiemp
Member
Scroll down to Q&A
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
There are a number of best case scenarios where Sony's system will just be an insane improvement.
The frame timing convo earlier for instance; it doesn't make what I said WRONG though.
Fact: Lowering CPU speed will make whatever code is running on that CPU execute slower, and take longer to complete (what I said earlier, and that you and others said 'no' too)
Another Fact: IF that code can still finish within the drawing of a frame, then it taking longer will not actually effect game performance, and that extra bit of power/clock can be given to the GPU for it to do it's part of the job of rendering said frame.
It's completely fair for some of you to ADD to what I've said and claim there's more to it.. but honestly I do not believe I said anything actually WRONG in this thread hence my frustration lol
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MasterCornholio
Member
Yeah that's why I think Microsoft will absorb the cost if the two are priced the same.
I know they keep saying that their objective isn't to sell as many systems as possible and I know they said at times that Sony isn't their competitor.
But does anyone really think they will let the XSS compete with the PS5 at the same price point?
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Nickolaidas
Banned
The XSS equal in price with the PS5 DE? A 4TF console is going to be sold in the same price with a 10.2 TF console?Sorry if already posted, just saw this pop up
Riiiight ...
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
FSorry if already posted, just saw this pop up
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
geordiemp
Member
The CPU is 0.1 GHz difference, and DX12 is more abstract so I would not bet any horses on DX12 being faster at all.
The real question is why are ps5 and XSX have same CPU GHz but XSX is at frequencies below RDNA1 PC parts. RDNA2 is 50 % perf / watt and AMD have supposedly addressed the limitations of RDNA1, so I would expect all RDNA2 parts to be at 2.1 GHz or there abouts or close to Ps5 if it had ps5 cooling and accounting for die size...
The mystery goes both ways....and PC RDNA2 parts will make understanding better when they surface.
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CrysisFreak
Banned
Yeah considering this is not the first time he posted it and considering just how unlikely it is we should not entertain that thought.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
With so many more CUs doesn't it's power requirements and heat output go up pretty quickly as they raise the GPU clock?
Nickolaidas
Banned
He's basically, "Don't mind me, I'm just throwing shit on the wall, hoping that something will stick!"
Nickolaidas
Banned
... I'm sorry, what is that supposed to prove?
jose4gg
Member
The point here is that Sony is not predicting for thermal issues, Sony is predicting which part of the power is not been used, this isn't related to power issues, this is related to put the power where it's needed, they still need to make the cooling system work in a way it can cool the amount of power they are distributing between the components.
Been able to do this to "cool" the machine, will basically be "smart throttling", that is not the paradigm...
If that was the paradigm when they put power in the CPU than that will require to do something like the GPU starts to run at something less than 2GHz which isn't what they said it would happen even in the worst case they mention.
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Dave_at_Home
Member
Look at this muh'fucka over here just makin' graphs n'shit.Some people should read this crap over and over why variable are better than fixed clocks. It was mentioned before, why not repeat it over and over :
"
Sony did tell us how their design works. The thing you're missing is that the PS5 approach is not just letting clocks be variable, like uncapping a framerate. That would indeed have no effect on the lowest dips in frequency. But they've also changed the trigger for throttling from temperature to silicon activity. And that actually changes how much power can be supplied to the chip without issues. This is because the patterns of GPU power needs aren't straightforward.
Here's a depiction of the change. (This is not real data, just for illustrative purposes of the general principle.) The blue line represents power draw over time, for profiled game code. The solid orange line represents the minimum power supply that would need to be used for this profile. Indeed, actual power draw must stay well below the rated capacity. Power supplies function best when actually drawing ~80% of their rating. And when designing a console the architects, working solely from current code, will build in a buffer zone to accommodate ever more demanding scenarios projected for years down the line.
You'd think the tallest peaks, highlighted in yellow, would be when the craziest visuals are happening onscreen in the game: many characters, destruction, smoke, lights, etc. But in fact, that's often not the case. Such impressive scenes are so complicated, the calculations necessary to render them bump into each other and stall briefly. Every transistor on the GPU may need to be in action, but some have to wait on work, so they don't all flip with every tick of the clock. So those scenes, highlighted in pink, don't contain the greatest spikes. (Though note that their sustained need is indeed higher.)
Instead, the yellow peaks are when there's work that's complex enough to spread over the whole chip, but just simple enough that it can flow smoothly without tripping over itself. Unbounded framerates can skyrocket, or background processes cycle over and over without meaningful effect. The useful work could be done with a lot less energy, but because clockspeed is fixed, the scenes blitz as fast as possible, spiking power draw.
Sony's approach is to sense for these abnormal spikes in activity, when utilization explodes, and preemptively reduce clockspeed. As mentioned, even at the lower speed, these blitz events are still capable of doing the necessary work. The user sees no quality loss. But now behind the scenes, the events are no longer overworking the GPU for no visible advantage.
But now we have lots of new headroom between our highest spikes and the power supply buffer zone. How can we easily use that? Simply by raising the clockspeed until the highest peaks are back at the limit. Since total power draw is a function of number of transistors flipped, times how fast they're flipping, the power drawn rises across the board. But now, the non-peak parts of your code have more oomph. There's literally more computing power to throw at the useful work. You can increase visible quality for the user in all the non-blitz scenes, which is the vast majority of the game.
Look what that's done. The heaviest, most impressive scenarios are now closer to the ceiling, meaning these most crucial events are leaving fewer resources untapped. The variability of power draw has gone down, meaning it's easier to predictively design a cooling solution that remains quiet more often. You're probably even able to reduce the future proofing buffer zone, and raise speed even more (though I haven't shown that here). Whatever unexpected spikes do occur, they won't endanger power stability (and fear of them won't push the efficiency of all work down in the design phase, only reduce the spikes themselves). All this without any need to change the power supply, GPU silicon, or spend time optimizing the game code.
Keep in mind that these pictures are for clarity, and specifics about exactly how much extra power is made available, how often and far clockspeed may dip, etc. aren't derivable from them. But I think the general idea comes through strongly. It shows why, though PS5's GPU couldn't be set to 2GHz with fixed clocks, that doesn't necessarily mean it must still fall below 2 GHz sometimes. Sony's approach changes the power profile's shape, making different goals achievable.
I'll end with this (slowly) animated version of the above.
PlayStation 5 System Architecture Deep Dive |OT| Secret Agent Cerny OT
Sony did tell us how their design works. The thing you're missing is that the PS5 approach is not just letting clocks be variable, like uncapping a framerate. That would indeed have no effect on the lowest dips in frequency. But they've also changed the trigger for throttling from temperature to...
geordiemp
Member
Bigger die yes. And lets be real, Ps5 with 2 % clock giving 10 % power reduction is beyond the power knee. Sony clearly have some novel cooling above what MS are doing.
And Sony released 2 cooling patents....so...
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Metroiddarks
Member
Bo_Hazem
Banned
He was too generous to give it 8-channel instead of cheap 4-channel, DRAM-less:
Now recalculate that, and see how even more staggering it is!
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