Support NeoGAF

[duhmetree]

I know both Microsoft and Sony said that they are using custom RDNA2 in both. And I do remember Cerny saying that the CUs were RDNA2 ones. And I'm also sure that was revealed for Microsoft during their hot chips event.

It really seems like Microsoft is going with a lower clock speed because they wanted more CUs. Also it produces less heat so it makes the system easier to cool and run silently.



I remember they made a comment after the hot chips event. I don't remember exactly what it was but it was something about it looking like an RDNA2 GPU.

Didn't Su say that Navi was made for Sony PlayStation? I would assume Sony will have all the bells and whistles

I think the consoles are both using Navi but possibly different generations. Both have some form of RDNA2. Sony may have more 'secret sauce' waiting to be revealed by AMD on October 28th.

 

[Metsuk]

Why are some people obsessed with resolution. Surely it's the quality of the visuals that are most important. HDR is a bigger upgrade with movies than 4k. Especially when I'm guessing a large percentage of people on consoles probably game at a further range than the eye can tell the difference between 1080p and 4k (around 2m with a 50") Let alone the difference between 1440p and 4k.

 

[onesvenus]

If the clocks are true then it is what I said because the only way to MS use these extreme conservative clocks are due the GPU core being RDNA 1.0.

Or they might have reached their performance goals without high frequencies thus having a more cooler and reliable box.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

That's PS5. This is Xbox Series S: (downloaded the 1440p@60fps video from youtube)

Maybe you got confused.

From the showing of both consoles, I can tel that PS5 will have much sharper image ( regardless of render resolution) due to full LOD extending far into the distance. Xbox Series is clearly not capable of keeping high resolution assets at far objects.
The games shown so far proves that.

Notice that the fully detailed assets on PS5 games are what making the image crisp even when the game renders at sub 4K resolution. UE5 demo and Demon's Souls ( 1440p60 as per DF) proves are good examples.

One thing to notice about the Demon's Souls FPS. I haven't seen locked 60 fps since PS360 generation on consoles. All games since then are jumping in high 30s to mid 50s fps. Demon's Souls suggests that performance mode on consoles will be finally worth it.

 

[onesvenus]

Like Polaris and GCN? I don't see why that has anything to do with RDNA2 which is a different architecture. It looks like AMD are doing things differently with it than their previous ones. Seems like high clocks and pretty good power consumption seen to be a focus with it. With that said I don't see why having a fast and narrow system is a bad thing especially given what Sony wanted to do with the system.

I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying that if it were so good for rendering they would have focused on that earlier instead of going wide and slow.

 

[Gediminas]

If this is what 1440p looks like next gen, maybe the Series S isn't such a bad bet after all

yes, exactly, 1440p, with xbox SS( )you could hit 540p on this game.

 

[ethomaz]

I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying that if it were so good for rendering they would have focused on that earlier instead of going wide and slow.

It was an know issue with GCN and AMD tried to go highest possible with GCN Polaris to the point they have a comercial card trotting with the specs clocks.

The reason the AMD GCN arch was always behind nVidia was due the low clocks due arch limitations.

The sole reason Vega and RX 5700 could not compete with 2080 and was faded to be a good option compared with 2070 is clock limitation.

 

[onesvenus]

Didn't Su say that Navi was made for Sony PlayStation? I would assume Sony will have all the bells and whistles

Can I have a quote on that?
Waiting for October 28th, two weeks before the release to disclose some technical details that will give PS5 some secret sauce, doesn't seem reasonable at all.

 

[Geruda065]

I'll just say HDR and Oled dont like each other

 

[user1337]

So what happens when the auctions end?

The bots don't pay, the scalper looses out and has to put the item up for sale again. Rise and repeat the process.

 

[ethomaz]

Can I have a quote on that?
Waiting for October 28th, two weeks before the release to disclose some technical details that will give PS5 some secret sauce, doesn't seem reasonable at all.

It was a rumor from Forbes... I should not take Forbes as truth unless AMD direct hints at.

 

[VargasPaPuM]

 

[VargasPaPuM]

 

[onesvenus]

The reason the AMD GCN arch was always behind nVidia was due the low clocks due arch limitations.

Ok, now that's some bullshit.
Why the fuck you guys have to pretend to know everything to justify your platform of choice?

NVIDIA arch's had a lot of things going for them, not just faster clock speeds. Comparing two completely different arch's with completely different feature sets is difficult. Saying that one was better than the other only because one was faster than the other is such a bad simplification.

Wild guesses:
- There won't be any secret sauce in PS5
- AMD won't use PS5-exclusive tech in RDNA3
- Xbox CUs won't be feature-starved RDNA2 cores

 

[Garani]

What about "you can play on every XBox" and that stuff?

 

[FunkMiller]

Not aimed at you, but there has been a lot of unfounded doubt on this forum in general about MS and Xbox with regard to the console market.

I mean the full backing of the MS CEO, elevation of Phil Spencer within MS, the hardware group designing multiple consoles at once, acquisitions the last 2 years, growing internal studios to 2 or more teams, purchasing studio buildings, and even before the Bethesda purchase people still doubted the commitment to console? I mean pretty sure the last time i saw someone post something stupid about "reasons why MS are getting out of the console biz" was only a few months ago. This has now switched to "MS is going third party". It's the reason i pushed back on it as something i always thought didn't make sense. Been almost 20 years for MS in the console biz, and it makes billions in revenue. Its one of the lone sectors of the software industry still growing. Why would they want to do anything (intentionally) to impact this? I do remember don mattrick and he was fired for messing up.

Just because they are using game pass as a reason for many of these moves/changes, doesn't mean they were not committed to console. MS is committed to PC, but they still make PC high-end notebooks and other hardware that they sell software on.

I guess for me, a commitment to video gaming is to produce video games... and Microsoft just haven't seemed to be that committed to doing that in the same way as Sony and Nintendo. Simple as that really. Bethesda acquisition is the first thing I've seen from them in a long time that really tells me theyre in it for the long haul.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

That's false in very parallelizable tasks. Just look at video and CG rendering for example, many slower cores are better than few faster ones. Rendering is an inherently parallel task because vertices are independently processed and pixels are independently shaded.

Andrew Goossen is on record stating that a 6.6% clock speed increase was better than a 17% CU increase in real games with Xbox One.

Or they might have reached their performance goals without high frequencies thus having a more cooler and reliable box.

Sure both Sony and Microsoft had performance and cost targets. For Sony it meant a lower number of CUs at higher clocks for a smaller, cheaper APU to match the low latency and fast SSD with the compromise being a more expensive/substantial cooling system and variable clocks. For Microsoft they wanted 12TF at all costs that meant far more CUs at lower fixed clocks, a slightly compromised RAM setup and customisations for its use in Azure servers.

Personally I'm fine with both hardware solutions. I'm far more bothered with Sony's 40% increase in game prices to £70 and Microsoft's lack of big FP games for the foreseeable.

 

[onesvenus]

I'll just say HDR and Oled dont like each other

Why is that? Dolby Vision movies look great in my LG CX

 

[Orky]

What about "you can play on every XBox" and that stuff?

that's for first party (Xbox studios).
But even they can create nextgen only games if they want. 3rd party can do whatever they want.
People were shutting A LOT on MS for releasing cross gen games.

 

[VargasPaPuM]

Ok, now that's some bullshit.
Why the fuck you guys have to pretend to know everything to justify your platform of choice?

NVIDIA arch's had a lot of things going for them, not just faster clock speeds. Comparing two completely different arch's with completely different feature sets is difficult. Saying that one was better than the other only because one was faster than the other is such a bad simplification.

Wild guesses:
- There won't be any secret sauce in PS5
- AMD won't use PS5-exclusive tech in RDNA3
- Xbox CUs won't be feature-starved RDNA2 cores

what I dont like in the AMD world are the drivers. The hardware is decent

 

[Garani]

that's for first party (Xbox studios).

Ahhhh, ok, I admit that I didn't follow it a whole lot.

 

[Orky]

I'll just say HDR and Oled dont like each other

Wtf? They love each other.

 

[onesvenus]

Andrew Goossen is on record stating that a 6.6% clock speed increase was better than a 17% CU increase in real games with Xbox One.

The real quote is "we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did. Now everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that can cause you not to get the performance you want if your design is out of balance"

That "if your design is out of balance" is key. It should be possible to have an architecture where having more CUs results in having more performance than increasing the clocks. The thing is that we won't know how RDNA2 fares until those cards are in the market and can be extensively benchmarked

 

[Nikana]

If these clocks are indeed true.

PS5 is just fully based in RDNA 2.0.
While Series X looks like RDNA 1.0 based with 2.0 features added.

 

[sircaw]

Take it, Take it, Take it.

Hook line and sinker do it Nikana.

 

[Dibils2k]

That's PS5. This is Xbox Series S: (downloaded the 1440p@60fps video from youtube)

Maybe you got confused.

oh so this is why you dont like DF... since their comparisons are actually relatable and make sense

maybe you will like them if they compared Uncharted 4 on PS4 pro with Dirt Rally running on Xbox One S

 

[Nikana]

Take it, Take it, Take it.

Hook line and sinker do it Nikana.

 

[duhmetree]

Can I have a quote on that?
Waiting for October 28th, two weeks before the release to disclose some technical details that will give PS5 some secret sauce, doesn't seem reasonable at all.

I mis-remembered. It was a 2 year old article.. 'inside source' from Forbes Jason Evangehlo.

According to my sources, Navi isn't just inside the Sony PS5; it was created for Sony. The vast majority of AMD and Sony's Navi collaboration took place while Raja Koduri -- Radeon Technologies Group boss and chief architect -- was at AMD.

But the collaboration came at the expense of Radeon RX Vega and other in-development projects. Allegedly, Koduri saw up to a massive 2/3 of his engineering team devoted exclusively to Navi against his wishes, which resulted in a final RX Vega product Koduri was displeased with as resources and engineering hours were much lower than anticipated. As I mention in my companion report, the implication is that AMD CEO Dr. Lisa Su wanted to devote more energy into its semi-custom business than its desktop graphics division.

but it does line up, I don't know why someone would make this up.

"What we have done with Sony is really architect something for their application, for their special sauce," Dr. Su told Jim Cramer of CNBC's Mad Money after its Q1 earnings were announced.

I did mis-remember and conflate it. but IMO it lines up. Cerny is giggling somewhere... and Lisa Su only brought up 'next-gen' Playstation when introducing Navi at her 2019 computex keynote. So, my brain is connecting dots.

Waiting until the 28th would because of a NDA and AMD wanting to announce it. There's nothing abnormal about that... It's not like PS5 is hurting for sales.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

oh so this is why you dont like DF... since their comparisons are actually relatable and make sense

maybe you will like them if they compared Uncharted 4 on PS4 pro with Dirt Rally running on Xbox One S

 

[kyliethicc]

I guess for me, a commitment to video gaming is to produce video games... and Microsoft just haven't seemed to be that committed to doing that in the same way as Sony and Nintendo. Simple as that really. Bethesda acquisition is the first thing I've seen from them in a long time that really tells me theyre in it for the long haul.

And who knows if that will really help. Other than Id Software, no studio at Bethesda is doing particularly well of late.

It will be fascinating to see if Starfield comes out anytime soon and is well received.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I've seen some video on YT and dude said that he can't tell if its Native and CB soo good he can't tell the difference.

If it's not native 4K then it's the new AI image reconstruction magic from Sony that has been patented lately.

 

[IbelieveInGenerations]

A Lot birdies telling me we Will see by mid ouctuber the long awaited teardown with official GPU info on PSBLOG that will reveal the secrets of the customized RDNA3 PlayStation 5 GPU.

 

[splattered]

A Lot birdies telling me we Will see by mid ouctuber the long awaited teardown with official GPU info on PSBLOG that will reveal the secrets of the customized RDNA3 PlayStation 5 GPU.

HipHopGamer is that you?

 

[Neo Blaster]

Disk space is smaller, but not price.
Thanks Jim.

Yes, because storage tech is exactly the same...

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The real quote is "we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did. Now everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock. There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that can cause you not to get the performance you want if your design is out of balance"

That "if your design is out of balance" is key. It should be possible to have an architecture where having more CUs results in having more performance than increasing the clocks. The thing is that we won't know how RDNA2 fares until those cards are in the market and can be extensively benchmarked

That part of the quote about balance wasn't said by Andrew but added by DF/Richard as it is in '[ ]' so the actual quote attributable to Andrew Goossen would be:

There are various bottlenecks you have in the pipeline that cause you not to get the performance you want.

Which Andrew then immediately elaborates upon:

Right. By fixing the clock, not only do we increase our ALU performance, we also increase our vertex rate, we increase our pixel rate and ironically increase our ESRAM bandwidth. But we also increase the performance in areas surrounding bottlenecks like the drawcalls flowing through the pipeline, the performance of reading GPRs out of the GPR pool, etc. GPUs are giantly complex. There's gazillions of areas in the pipeline that can be your bottleneck in addition to just ALU and fetch performance.

 

[geordiemp]

I remember Cerny said they could go higher but then the logic would fall apart. Is it falling apart in the PC GPUs at those clockspeeds?

Cerny said it gave less performance due to logic, could be the performance tails off a bit, it does seem excessive.

Where are all the frequency concern posters gone

 

[Bo_Hazem]

1 in a 100,000,000 shot maybe? Shop near my house.

It's funded by Phil himself, so you put your greasy fingers afterwards on that white, holy controller known as DualSense.

 

[sircaw]

1 in a 100,000,000 shot maybe? Shop near my house.

I will give you the exact odds in 2 months' times, crunch.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Cerny said it gave less performance due to logic, could be the performance tails off a bit, it does seem excessive.

Where are all the frequency concern posters gone

I'm still not convinced, but I'm not going to spread FUD. I'll just wait until release and an analysis from DF on the system.

 

[onesvenus]

but it does line up, I don't know why someone would make this up.

It does not, really. Do you think it's better for AMD to create their own arch alone so they can sell to anyone or create their next arch with Sony and limit their options? Even if the Xbox market is smaller than the PS one, it's not really something you want to do.

"What we have done with Sony is really architect something for their application, for their special sauce," Dr. Su told Jim Cramer of CNBC's Mad Money after its Q1 earnings were announced.

That doesn't imply creating an architecture for them.

I'm really eager to see all those Cerny/AMD patents protecting all those things that they supposedly did together. It seems to me like you guys are dreaming but we'll see in some time

 

[Bo_Hazem]

HOLY FUCK

PLEASE BE TRUE

Seems like the PS5 Pro will be an easy job, having 72CU's. More proofs that Sony was thinking ahead!

 

[onesvenus]

That part of the quote about balance wasn't said by Andrew but added by DF/Richard as it is in '[ ]' so the actual quote attributable to Andrew Goossen would be:



Which Andrew then immediately elaborates upon:

Let's wait for benchmarks

 

[sircaw]

I'm still not convinced, but I'm not going to spread FUD. I'll just wait until release and an analysis from DF on the system.

This is a speculation thread, you are allowed to spread it in here but if i see you wearing another placard around your neck in other forums section again stating Microsoft is Rnda5 we will have words.

 

[Andodalf]

It does not, really. Do you think it's better for AMD to create their own arch alone so they can sell to anyone or create their next arch with Sony and limit their options? Even if the Xbox market is smaller than the PS one, it's not really something you want to do.


That doesn't imply creating an architecture for them.

I'm really eager to see all those Cerny/AMD patents protecting all those things that they supposedly did together. It seems to me like you guys are dreaming but we'll see in some time

Sony fanboys have a fetish that Sony are just Gods of arch design, that seems to be predicated on Cerny memes. On the first age of this thread you'll see people saying how Next gen would be a bloodbath, because Navi was invented by Sony and MS would have to use Vega, lol.

 

[sircaw]

Seems like the PS5 Pro will be an easy job, having 73CU's. More proofs that Sony was thinking ahead!

You know Bo if you were a wrestler in the WWF, a good name for you would be the executioner.

 

[Kerlurk]

From what I've gathered... Higher clocks is substantial for Ray Tracing.

Yeah. Sony going for their design might make a big difference when comparing with XSX. It might very well level the playing field on games using RT.

 

[Geruda065]

Why are some people obsessed with resolution. Surely it's the quality of the visuals that are most important. HDR is a bigger upgrade with movies than 4k. Especially when I'm guessing a large percentage of people on consoles probably game at a further range than the eye can tell the difference between 1080p and 4k (around 2m with a 50") Let alone the difference between 1440p and 4k.

So true. Thing is most people dont have proper hdr display. Displays are marketed by resolution and hdr support. But that support is no where near proper hdr color nore brighness. Resolution is much easier to sell than hdr.

 

[duhmetree]

It does not, really. Do you think it's better for AMD to create their own arch alone so they can sell to anyone or create their next arch with Sony and limit their options? Even if the Xbox market is smaller than the PS one, it's not really something you want to do.


That doesn't imply creating an architecture for them.

I'm really eager to see all those Cerny/AMD patents protecting all those things that they supposedly did together. It seems to me like you guys are dreaming but we'll see in some time

It all dependent on wording and how its taken.

Sony is their best customer. IF they collaborate to make specific advancements and architect a custom APU with 'secret sauce', I'm sure Sony would have proprietary rights to that tech in the console world. It also allows AMD to use these advancements in the PC Gaming world. It's a win-win for both sides.

The PS5 is starting to sound like its a 'dream project' engineered by Game Devs. The more I find out about it the more it captivates me. To me, it sounds as if Cerny, Sony and Epic to some extent, asked the question, 'What are the limitations when creating games?'... Instead of brute forcing it, they have looked for creative solutions and applications to these issues.

 

[Geruda065]

Why is that? Dolby Vision movies look great in my LG CX

Sure it does. But do you run your oled at max brightness? Hdr requires high peak brightness to show its full potential. New hdr standards go up over 1000 nits brighnes and than oled user play that at 100-200nits to save displays.

 

[onesvenus]

It all dependent on wording and how its taken.

Sony is their best customer. IF they collaborate to make specific advancements and architect a custom APU with 'secret sauce', I'm sure Sony would have proprietary rights to that tech in the console world. It also allows AMD to use these advancements in the PC Gaming world. It's a win-win for both sides.

The PS5 is starting to sound like its a 'dream project' engineered by Game Devs. The more I find out about it the more it captivates me. To me, it sounds as if Cerny, Sony and Epic to some extent, asked the question, 'What are the limitations when creating games?'... Instead of brute forcing it, they have looked for creative solutions and applications to these issues.

That's marketing for you, nothing else