Chris_Rivera
Member
MaybeSo, is every part of the PS5 Die now understood/mapped or are there still some unknown or unusual customisations/differences to consider and speculate on?
MaybeSo, is every part of the PS5 Die now understood/mapped or are there still some unknown or unusual customisations/differences to consider and speculate on?
that matter and seem focused on the downgraded FPU, missing VRS and anything RDNA1 on PS5.
They have mostly looked at the CPU in details until now. The most interesting parts (Geometry engine and custom I/O) have being mostly ignored.So, is every part of the PS5 Die now understood/mapped or are there still some unknown or unusual customisations/differences to consider and speculate on?
It's part of the discussion I was having with eThomaz about whether or not XSX CUs were RDNA 2.0. I felt that considering the fact that we have new ray tracing accelerators in the TMUs which are part of CUs, the XSX CUs should be bigger than the RDNA 1.0 CUs.it's inside the texture units which are part of the CUs. but what does that matter?
You guys should try playing games
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The truth of the matter is that both PS5 and the X|S are well made and outside of a passing interest in how they were made none of this really matters. It is going to be a great generation all around.
It will be interesting to see if there is a different approach taken with the customisations on this die that may offer either a different method of achieving the same goals used on the other platforms (with regards to certain features) or maybe a different approach entirely, that is yet to be demonstrated so to speak.They have mostly looked at the CPU in details until now. The most interesting parts (Geometry engine and custom I/O) have being mostly ignored.
It's part of the discussion I was having with eThomaz about whether or not XSX CUs were RDNA 2.0. I felt that considering the fact that we have new ray tracing accelerators in the TMUs which are part of CUs, the XSX CUs should be bigger than the RDNA 1.0 CUs.
Silicon wise the CUs and TMUs are separated.It's part of the discussion I was having with eThomaz about whether or not XSX CUs were RDNA 2.0. I felt that considering the fact that we have new ray tracing accelerators in the TMUs which are part of CUs, the XSX CUs should be bigger than the RDNA 1.0 CUs.
To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.So it seems pretty obvious that Sony could have selected the features that they wanted for their GPU. But why make the decision not include dedicated hardware for SFS, VRS and Mesh Shaders?
Just seems a bit odd that Sony wouldn't have those features unless they could substitute them for something else.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.Like always very very interesting ...thanks
and (i promise is the last question!!) about the ML you think that there will be diffence between the two console (on hw level)?
I'm asking because i think that this could be bigger than the lack of something like VRS
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
I'm not trolling at all i follow you on twitter and i have an absolute respect for what you say (and if you followed the thread you will find me saying this somewhere on here some pages ago)To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.
Development start time and milestones for several details can differ.
There is some visibility as to what features AMD wants to offer in the future, however there is not necessarly a guarantee that AMD will make it in time or that it's easily compatible with or portable into the existing design.
At a certain point in time Sony and Microsoft will settle down hw aspects and only integrate/change the design if the risk is low and time allows it.
The graphics core IP under the PS5 got the version number 10.0, that's even older than RDNA1 GPUs which got 10.1, Xbox Series has 10.2 and RDNA2 GPUs 10.3.
You can take this as an indication that Sony and AMD started very early on the design.
Microsoft stated the following on their blog which made claims about "full RDNA2" integration: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture."
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A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture - Xbox Wire
We here at Team Xbox would like to congratulate and celebrate our amazing partners at AMD on today’s announcement of the Radeon RX 6000 Series of RDNA 2 GPUs. It was incredible to see AMD demonstrate the power and potential that the new AMD RDNA 2 architecture can deliver to gamers around the...news.xbox.com
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
PS: In relation to Mesh Shaders, it's not clear to me if there is a major difference as to what Sony offers developers.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.
It appears likely that the PS5 is only offering packed math for FP16 and INT16, whereas the Xbox Series offers mixed precision dot-product instructions for FP16, INT8&4 with a high precision accumulation step in one go.
Since I'm not a game developer I can't really tell how widespread ML will spread into realtime rendering and if there will be cases, where the Xbox Series can benefit a lot while the PS5 has to make big compromises.
From a potential standpoint, I would also say that this is a far larger benefit than VRS, which can be done quite efficiently in software and is "just" for the shading rate.
ML offers a wide variety of potential use cases and also more complex and advanced techniques for image quality.
To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.
Development start time and milestones for several details can differ.
There is some visibility as to what features AMD wants to offer in the future, however there is not necessarly a guarantee that AMD will make it in time or that it's easily compatible with or portable into the existing design.
At a certain point in time Sony and Microsoft will settle down hw aspects and only integrate/change the design if the risk is low and time allows it.
The graphics core IP under the PS5 got the version number 10.0, that's even older than RDNA1 GPUs which got 10.1, Xbox Series has 10.2 and RDNA2 GPUs 10.3.
You can take this as an indication that Sony and AMD started very early on the design.
Microsoft stated the following on their blog which made claims about "full RDNA2" integration: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture."
![]()
A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture - Xbox Wire
We here at Team Xbox would like to congratulate and celebrate our amazing partners at AMD on today’s announcement of the Radeon RX 6000 Series of RDNA 2 GPUs. It was incredible to see AMD demonstrate the power and potential that the new AMD RDNA 2 architecture can deliver to gamers around the...news.xbox.com
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
PS: In relation to Mesh Shaders, it's not clear to me if there is a major difference as to what Sony offers developers.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.
It appears likely that the PS5 is only offering packed math for FP16 and INT16, whereas the Xbox Series offers mixed precision dot-product instructions for FP16, INT8&4 with a high precision accumulation step in one go.
Since I'm not a game developer I can't really tell how widespread ML will spread into realtime rendering and if there will be cases, where the Xbox Series can benefit a lot while the PS5 has to make big compromises.
From a potential standpoint, I would also say that this is a far larger benefit than VRS, which can be done quite efficiently in software and is "just" for the shading rate.
ML offers a wide variety of potential use cases and also more complex and advanced techniques for image quality.
I know that you are not trolling.I'm not trolling at all i follow you on twitter and i have an absolute respect for what you say (and if you followed the thread you will find me saying this somewhere on here some pages ago)
oh nice to see finally a proof on the timing ,the graphic core!! I was speculating for days that Sony had to find their own solution to the mesh shader and RT obviously getting help from amd precisely because they had started development at least 1 year earlier than the Xbox. That would also explain AMD's reddit leak, wouldn't it?
What's the evidence about about the lack of INT8/4 support for PS5 is it the die shot? Some other twitter users like LeviathanGamer seem to think otherwise.To a certain extend both Sony and Microsoft are getting independent teams, working on their next console chips and their specific requests.
Development start time and milestones for several details can differ.
There is some visibility as to what features AMD wants to offer in the future, however there is not necessarly a guarantee that AMD will make it in time or that it's easily compatible with or portable into the existing design.
At a certain point in time Sony and Microsoft will settle down hw aspects and only integrate/change the design if the risk is low and time allows it.
The graphics core IP under the PS5 got the version number 10.0, that's even older than RDNA1 GPUs which got 10.1, Xbox Series has 10.2 and RDNA2 GPUs 10.3.
You can take this as an indication that Sony and AMD started very early on the design.
Microsoft stated the following on their blog which made claims about "full RDNA2" integration: "In our quest to put gamers and developers first we chose to wait for the most advanced technology from our partners at AMD before finalizing our architecture."
![]()
A Closer Look at How Xbox Series X|S Integrates Full AMD RDNA 2 Architecture - Xbox Wire
We here at Team Xbox would like to congratulate and celebrate our amazing partners at AMD on today’s announcement of the Radeon RX 6000 Series of RDNA 2 GPUs. It was incredible to see AMD demonstrate the power and potential that the new AMD RDNA 2 architecture can deliver to gamers around the...news.xbox.com
Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
You have to keep in mind that the physical floor plan can't be easily changed later on and that exclusive customization may block easy integration of new design blueprints from AMD.
PS: In relation to Mesh Shaders, it's not clear to me if there is a major difference as to what Sony offers developers.
You can ask me as many question as you like, as long as you don't troll me, since I'm not the president with a tight Q&A time budget.
It appears likely that the PS5 is only offering packed math for FP16 and INT16, whereas the Xbox Series offers mixed precision dot-product instructions for FP16, INT8&4 with a high precision accumulation step in one go.
Since I'm not a game developer I can't really tell how widespread ML will spread into realtime rendering and if there will be cases, where the Xbox Series can benefit a lot while the PS5 has to make big compromises.
From a potential standpoint, I would also say that this is a far larger benefit than VRS, which can be done quite efficiently in software and is "just" for the shading rate.
ML offers a wide variety of potential use cases and also more complex and advanced techniques for image quality.
Unfortunately it is true, and we know that trying to take base everything just on a nomenclature such as what can be rdna x.x is very reductive and potentially misleading especially if we are talking about custom gpus. For this we should move the discussion more on features than on an arbitrary name.I know that you are not trolling.
It was a general information I wanted to share because multiple people started to word their question with "may I ask" as if I'm the president or technical lead of something.
I'm just a guy on the internet as many others here and I'm fully open to discussions and questions.
And don't worry I'm not a feeble flower or trigger happy rage baby, if I see unreasonable statements or questions I simply don't engage anymore.
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The software specification of "Mesh Shaders" under DX12 is public however the features and limitations of Sony's "Primitive Shaders" are not.
Mesh Shaders or Primitive Shaders are just arbaritary words for some defined features.
There might not be even a real difference in practise.
In relation to the reddit leak, you would need to point me to it since I don't follow the website that much.
I don't think we have practical examples od what they bring to the table (except the elimination of what seems to be loading stuttering in control I believe).They have mostly looked at the CPU in details until now. The most interesting parts (Geometry engine and custom I/O) have being mostly ignored.
Such details are unfortunately not visible on die shots, at least not without a massive zoom factor.What's the evidence about about the lack of INT8/4 support for PS5 is it the die shot? Some other twitter users like Leviathan seem to think otherwise.
I missed the interesting GitHub leak in full glory before it was taken down but all the information from that time is legit as far as I saw.the leak it comes directly from an AMD employee who was working on testing an amd prototype for Sony which many thought was the ps5.
There are several screenshots of the tests carried out I'm sure it won't be difficult for you to find them. Here is an article by eurogamer that explains a bit how the situation went.
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In Theory: is PS5 powered by an AMD Gonzalo processor?
The first reveal - of sorts - for PlayStation 5 has been and gone, with Sony confirming specs including an octo-core Ze…www.eurogamer.net
The same lack of information was present on the VRS side of things which is now fairly certainly not supported on the PS5 hardware because of the visibly older Render Backend design on the die shot.
I missed the interesting GitHub leak in full glory before it was taken down but all the information from that time is legit as far as I saw.
Okay, i understand. Mainly based on your interpretation of these then. Thanks for the reply.Such details are unfortunately not visible on die shots, at least not without a massive zoom factor.
I base it of a belly feeling because of some factors.
1.) Rosario Leonardi from Sony made the (now deleted) claim on twitter that there is "no ML stuff" on it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200715221634/https://twitter.com/ilMal3/status/1283524232933187593
2.) In an Interview David Cage from Quantic Dream claimed that the Xbox Series shader cores are more suitable for machine learning:
https://wccftech.com/david-cage-on-quantic-dream-future-next-gen-gaming-and-not-ruling-out-sequels/
3.) As far as I know Sony did never state anything in relation to machine learning, though from my perspective the feature is too important to simply not mention it.
The same lack of information was present on the VRS side of things which is now fairly certainly not supported on the PS5 hardware because of the visibly older Render Backend design on the die shot.
4.) The graphics core IP version is 10.0 according to older test leaks on GitHub from an AMD employee.
The first Navi GPU (RDNA1) was Navi10 which has the GC version 10.1.0 and it's not supporting dot-product instructions for INT8/4.
While ray tracing acceleration was included on the PS5, I'm bearish on the perspective that Sony also touched the ALUs to include ML instructions.
It's my personal perspective in that regard and not pure evidence.
I missed the interesting GitHub leak in full glory before it was taken down but all the information from that time is legit as far as I saw.
You mean just on hardware level?
Looks like you were called on ERA
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Yes, for the hardware support multiple changes on the rasterization pipeline are necessary.
A software implementation can already work great on PS4/Xbox One hardware.
On ERA I did a posting but I was not pinged for questions and I don't have time to read each comment.
So if someone thinks I could help with something, the person needs to mention me directly so that I get a notice.
Does this card not have Infinity Cache?So there is no RX 6700 (aka Navi 22) coming from AMD?
40CUs just like PS5.
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I mean how do you guys create these claims that are easily debunked before you post it?
I'm happy to know that you arrived to my own conclusions! yes i did forget about Cage, at the marketing level it would be stupid not to publish such an important and above all so "famous" feature especially after brands like "Apple" have made the terminology "machine learning" into common useSuch details are unfortunately not visible on die shots, at least not without a massive zoom factor.
I base it of a belly feeling because of some factors.
1.) Rosario Leonardi from Sony made the (now deleted) claim on twitter that there is "no ML stuff" on it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200715221634/https://twitter.com/ilMal3/status/1283524232933187593
2.) In an Interview David Cage from Quantic Dream claimed that the Xbox Series shader cores are more suitable for machine learning:
https://wccftech.com/david-cage-on-quantic-dream-future-next-gen-gaming-and-not-ruling-out-sequels/
3.) As far as I know Sony did never state anything in relation to machine learning, though from my perspective the feature is too important to simply not mention it.
The same lack of information was present on the VRS side of things which is now fairly certainly not supported on the PS5 hardware because of the visibly older Render Backend design on the die shot.
4.) The graphics core IP version is 10.0 according to older test leaks on GitHub from an AMD employee.
The first Navi GPU (RDNA1) was Navi10 which has the GC version 10.1.0 and it's not supporting dot-product instructions for INT8/4.
While ray tracing acceleration was included on the PS5, I'm bearish on the perspective that Sony also touched the ALUs to include ML instructions.
It's my personal perspective in that regard and not pure evidence.
I missed the interesting GitHub leak in full glory before it was taken down but all the information from that time is legit as far as I saw.
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lol no you didn't!
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Great XSX and PS5 are both RDNA2, both Sony and MS officially stated that the two GPU’s are “specialised configurations of RDNA2” / customised RDNA2 (actual quote from one of these tweets from James “SFS = 2-3x better than <unspecified baseline>” Stanard, and also what Sony and Mark “Pretty Cool, Right? Lend me your ears” Cerny also stated)Soethomaz , will you stop saying XS GPUs are RDNA1 based now or will you dismiss his opinion because he is a Microsoft employee?
You know it doesn't work like that. That only applies to Microsoft and Sony are all liars.Great XSX and PS5 are both RDNA2, both Sony and MS officially stated that the two GPU’s are “specialised configurations of RDNA2” / customised RDNA2 (actual quote from one of these tweets from James “SFS = 2-3x better than <unspecified baseline>” Stanard, and also what Sony and Mark “Pretty Cool, Right? Lend me your ears” Cerny also stated).
Case closed?
I know that you are a good guy and you doing this to keep the situation calm in a convulsive thread. But you know better than me that things most likely aren't quite like that.Great XSX and PS5 are both RDNA2, both Sony and MS officially stated that the two GPU’s are “specialised configurations of RDNA2” / customised RDNA2 (actual quote from one of these tweets from James “SFS = 2-3x better than <unspecified baseline>” Stanard, and also what Sony and Mark “Pretty Cool, Right? Lend me your ears” Cerny also stated).
Case closed?
Of course that’s more interesting for some , for others that are positives while others focus on the negative.. I just like it to be all cleared .I think we'll need some others experts opinion of why GE and TMUs seem bigger on PS5. Those people on that twitter thread don't seem to be interested into that matter and seem focused on the downgraded FPU, missing VRS and anything RDNA1 on PS5.
The most interesting aspect of PS5 is the Geometry engine (why is it bigger?), tempest engine and cache scrubbers.
lol no you didn't!
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He added one more piece.
Are they bad?
Can't open it with my device.
I know that you are a good guy and you doing this to keep the situation calm in a convulsive thread. But you know better than me that things most likely aren't quite like that.
But if I no longer see people like John wick, assurdum, fat etc etc write nonsense I'll close it here too even though I'm and i was right all the time...and we will let the performances speak ... when the hw is exploited
case closed
I don't know I've seen people claim that the PS5 is RDNA1 when it isn't. I know both are a combination of the two but that doesn't make it correct to say that one system is RDNA1 while the other is RDNA2. It gets really irritating to see the same misinformation spread over and over again.
I agree.You guys should try playing games
Many have reading issues here, sadly.
If you read the quote from MS correctly, they outline the position/advantage least in their minds!!!
Quote
"Xbox Series X|S are the only next-generation consoles with full hardware support for all the RDNA 2 capabilities.
MS does not challenge the PS5 GPU not based on RDNA2 subset.
There position is the Series/ S are the only next gen consoles that fully hardware support all the features for RDNA2.
This quote seems to be right based on things we know. Since Sony themselves announced VRS not already there. They have a line in a blog post it be included later in a software update. It’s not VRS hardware RDNA2.
Sony designed most of features in PS5 thats why they doesn't wait. Those features are made by first party programmers. Most of design came from programmers not silicon designers.Sony likely finalized multiple aspects before Microsoft and did not see the upcoming features as important enough to change the design which costs extra money, validation and incurs potential launch risks.
The shader cores of the Xbox are also more suitable to machine learning, which could be an advantage if Microsoft succeeds in implementing an equivalent to Nvidia’s DLSS (an advanced neural network solution for AI).Such details are unfortunately not visible on die shots, at least not without a massive zoom factor.
I base it of a belly feeling because of some factors.
1.) Rosario Leonardi from Sony made the (now deleted) claim on twitter that there is "no ML stuff" on it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200715221634/https://twitter.com/ilMal3/status/1283524232933187593
2.) In an Interview David Cage from Quantic Dream claimed that the Xbox Series shader cores are more suitable for machine learning:
https://wccftech.com/david-cage-on-quantic-dream-future-next-gen-gaming-and-not-ruling-out-sequels/
3.) As far as I know Sony did never state anything in relation to machine learning, though from my perspective the feature is too important to simply not mention it.
The same lack of information was present on the VRS side of things which is now fairly certainly not supported on the PS5 hardware because of the visibly older Render Backend design on the die shot.
4.) The graphics core IP version is 10.0 according to older test leaks on GitHub from an AMD employee.
The first Navi GPU (RDNA1) was Navi10 which has the GC version 10.1.0 and it's not supporting dot-product instructions for INT8/4.
While ray tracing acceleration was included on the PS5, I'm bearish on the perspective that Sony also touched the ALUs to include ML instructions.
It's my personal perspective in that regard and not pure evidence.
I missed the interesting GitHub leak in full glory before it was taken down but all the information from that time is legit as far as I saw.
Both are customised RDNA2. Period... elseMany have reading issues here, sadly.
If you read the quote from MS correctly, they outline the position/advantage least in their minds!!!
Quote
"Xbox Series X|S are the only next-generation consoles with full hardware support for all the RDNA 2 capabilities.
MS does not challenge the PS5 GPU not based on RDNA2 subset.
There position is the Series/ S are the only next gen consoles that fully hardware support all the features for RDNA2.
This quote seems to be right based on things we know. Since Sony themselves announced VRS not already there. They have a line in a blog post it be included later in a software update. It’s not VRS hardware RDNA2.
that you probably have not followed (i know you have, but i let it go) the succession of events nor understood what experts said about the ps5 dieshot nor what Stanard said to ethomaz , those users had spit fanboy nonsense without having a minimum of knowledge on the topic and of the facts , and I'm being kindFile was canceled.
What did they say, that was wrong? Other than repeatedly telling you that you are wrong and that the PS5 is RDNA2 based?
1) don't go insult people, be nice.
2) XBX/S does not have infinity cache.
Neither PS5 or Series/ S has infinity cache that’s thoroughly known.1) don't go insult people, be nice.
2) XBX/S does not have infinity cache.