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[Bernd Lauert]

You can have a photorealistic game with 8K textures and incredible geometry detail, but if it's 30 fps, once you push that right stick to left or right, the entire image turns into puke. No thanks.

 

[Bramble]

I'm actually starting to want 120fps as standard…

Yep. Uncharted 4 at 1080p/120 looks sharper in motion than at 4K/30.

 

[StateofMajora]

Yep. Uncharted 4 at 1080p/120 looks sharper in motion than at 4K/30.

Definitely going to play it at 4k120 on pc one day.

 

[DenchDeckard]

30fps looks good in single screenshots, as soon as you move the camera that image quality is destroyed.

the real problem we have had is consoles pushed. 30 fps for a number of generations so they could deliver the highest image quality possible versus pc, when really they should have probably scaled things back a bit and delivered 60 fps…

…now a bunch of people are wanting that graphical fidelity but we have seen a major shift is those that want 60fps So we are kind of in a reset generation.

I think the main problem is the upscaling techniques aren't up to scratch. Insomniacs is amazing so you hardly notice, while a company's like geurillas is lower quality. Checkerboarding just doesn't cut it unless it's done extremely we'll I don't think.

 

[RuneMan]

Is 30 FPS killing overall gaming experiences?

Fixed.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

I dont think it is at all. Was just playing Hitman 3 on X, super sharp, super smooth, I mean at this point I don't see how we could expect much more than that really.

Like a cue ball.

 

[Dr Bass]

You can have a photorealistic game with 8K textures and incredible geometry detail, but if it's 30 fps, once you push that right stick to left or right, the entire image turns into puke. No thanks.

I get what you're saying but this isn't necessarily true. Do you think movies look like puke?

 

[rofif]

I can read just fine and this isn't the first time you've expressed yourself with piss poor arguments to defend 30 FPS.

The "point" of motion blur in these cases is not an artistic choice. It is necessary to keep the game playable due to the low framerate. The higher the framerate, the less motion blur is required.

It's not necessary. They raised the shutter speed in remaster of uncharted 4.
And I am not seeing that huge overblown camera motion blur in every game like you say. If anything - good object per pixel motion blur is getting more popular. Swinging sword, jumping and performing actions look better than ever in some games.
And You are saying like if me "defending" 30 fps is a bad thing?! It is my opinion and I am the only one showing facts and comparisons.

I am always posting this video. I know which side looks more realistic to me.

 

[Shmunter]

Lets just make 60 fps the standard and we will all suck it up for a bit and then the graphical improvements will come. Im not trying to go back to 30fps.

Before it was teh same with HD and 4K etc etc. Framerates suffering due to resolution. now maybe a bit it swung the other way but thats fine by me.

Listen to this red guy

 

[yurinka]

Obviously if you want top tier graphical fidelity you won'tt have top tier framerate. So you have to choose between them.

 

[dDoc]

I will play games at 30 fps.

Having said that, 60 fps is a better all round experience. I can live with a little less graphical fidelity and play at a higher frame rate instead.

 

[Rykan]

It's not necessary. They raised the shutter speed in remaster of uncharted 4.
And I am not seeing that huge overblown camera motion blur in every game like you say. If anything - good object per pixel motion blur is getting more popular. Swinging sword, jumping and performing actions look better than ever in some games.
And You are saying like if me "defending" 30 fps is a bad thing?! It is my opinion and I am the only one showing facts and comparisons.

You're not showing either facts or comparissons, I am. You've shown a video of how a camera works in real life which is not at all compareable to how video games are rendered and how camera movement in video games work. I'm the one who has actually shown examples. You have not.

 

[BigBooper]

You're not showing either facts or comparissons, I am. You've shown a video of how a camera works in real life which is not at all compareable to how video games are rendered and how camera movement in video games work. I'm the one who has actually shown examples. You have not.

He loves blurry graphics. You will never change his opinion.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

I get what you're saying but this isn't necessarily true. Do you think movies look like puke?

I was exaggerating a bit, since it always depends on camera movement speed. In movies, there is generally very little camera panning going on (most directors use still shots from several angles), and when it happens, it's rather slow. Now compare that to your average action adventure game during combat. It just doesn't look great.

 

[Dr Bass]

I was exaggerating a bit, since it always depends on camera movement speed. In movies, there is generally very little camera panning going on (most directors use still shots from several angles), and when it happens, it's rather slow. Now compare that to your average action adventure game during combat. It just doesn't look great.

Ok. I get that perspective.

 

[rofif]

You're not showing either facts or comparissons, I am. You've shown a video of how a camera works in real life which is not at all compareable to how video games are rendered and how camera movement in video games work. I'm the one who has actually shown examples. You have not.

oh my god.
kill me

 

[FukuDaruma]

It's not necessary. They raised the shutter speed in remaster of uncharted 4.
And I am not seeing that huge overblown camera motion blur in every game like you say. If anything - good object per pixel motion blur is getting more popular. Swinging sword, jumping and performing actions look better than ever in some games.
And You are saying like if me "defending" 30 fps is a bad thing?! It is my opinion and I am the only one showing facts and comparisons.

I am always posting this video. I know which side looks more realistic to me.

Dude, that's a 25fps video...

 

[rofif]

Dude, that's a 25fps video...

so what? The same principle goes for 30 and 60fps. Just different shutter speeds

 

[FukuDaruma]

so what? The same principle goes for 30 and 60fps. Just different shutter speeds

No, it doesn't. Shutter speed and fps are different things.

Motion blur is used in 30fps games to avoid them looking like a slideshow.

 

[tvdaXD]

No. We're simply held back by consoles so developers have to decide which route to walk.

 

[Swift_Star]

No, it doesn't. Shutter speed and fps are different things.

Motion blur is used in 30fps games to avoid them looking like a slideshow.

And it's also used in 60fps games, your point is moot.

 

[Swift_Star]

Man I never saw any 30fps game turning blur when moving the camera.
What make the game blurry are the resolution and/or some post processing AA.

What game are you playing? It is something that happens on PC?

This 30fps hatred and takes is pure hyperbole. 30fps is fine. I'm glad I'm not as sensitive as these people.

 

[Belthazar]

No, the pursue for 4k is tho.

 

[ethomaz]

Yea guys, no idea what this blur thing is you guys are talking about.

But you paused or took the specific frame.
I played these games and never saw that rotating the camera.

Have you got a game like The Last of Us 2 on PlayStation 5. Try the two different mode 30 and 60. Forget about motion blur with 30fps. If you move the screen left or right the whole screen shimmers because the frame can't keep up with fast movement.

The difference is so huge I can't believe no one would be able to not see the difference.

I can't see that blur rotating the camera in TLOU2… it is a single frame in 1/30 second.

 

[Rykan]

And it's also used in 60fps games, your point is moot.

It's not moot. Motion Blur is significantly less noticeable at 60 FPS and even less so at higher framerates.

But you paused or took the specific frame.
I played these games and never saw that rotating the camera.


I can't see that blur rotating the camera in TLOU2… it is a single frame in 1/30 second.

None of those screens were during a pause. This is what it looks like when you turn the camera in a 30 FPS games. You absolutely did see that when turning the camera because it's literally in the game. When you turn the camera in a 30 FPS game, aggressive motion blur is applied because the game is unplayable without it. I have no idea why you're denying this fact, it's literally right there in the pictures.

 

[Hunnybun]

Motion blur isn't even the main visual problem with 30fps. The bigger deal is the lack of motion clarity. It's just much harder to perceive motion at 30fps.

It's a bit hard to explain but with 30 it's like I have a vague impression of the graphics on screen; I can see it but I can't really 'grasp' it. Then with 60 everything looks much clearer and almost tangible, even somehow more three dimensional.

It's similar to an image snapping into perfect focus. At least for me it is.

I don't know how many other people have this experience, but I'm sure I read somewhere that most people's brains update their image processing at about 60hz and that's why 60fps looks so much better to most people. It's not just some arbitrary number.

 

[ethomaz]

It's not moot. Motion Blur is significantly less noticeable at 60 FPS and even less so at higher framerates.


None of those screens were during a pause. This is what it looks like when you turn the camera in a 30 FPS games. You absolutely did see that when turning the camera because it's literally in the game. When you turn the camera in a 30 FPS game, aggressive motion blur is applied because the game is unplayable without it. I have no idea why you're denying this fact, it's literally right there in the pictures.

Because I just fired up the game to rotate the camera lol

You only see it like you posted if I record in a video and took the frame screenshot.

I can see Nathan's car on my side when the camera rotate… and the buildings and others objects.

And that looking for it because you guys said it…. before that playing the game I never once realized that is a issue because it is very fluid to rotate the camera in these games.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Is 30 FPS killing overall gaming experiences?

Fixed.

Shhhhhh. Input lag lovers gonna cry.

 

[Haggard]

The disgusting stuttery motion and motion clarity @30fps is an absolute no go if there are ANY other options. Add post-proc motion blur to the mess that`s camera repositioning @ 30fps and you`re left with a modern art on your screen every time you move your camera.
It´s not a real issue as in "doesn´t work", it just absolutely sucks compared to 60+ fps.
And that`s just for "slow" games since we`ve not talked about input lag, yet.....

 

[rodrigolfp]

Well new Horizon is another case.
60fps mode kills IQ.

PC: "Is this a console problem that I am too over flooded with options to understand?"

 

[Rykan]

Because I just fired up the game to rotate the camera lol

You only see it like you posted if I record in a video and took the frame screenshot.

I can see Nathan's car on my side when the camera rotate… and the buildings and others objects.

And that looking for it because you guys said it…. before that playing the game I never once realized that is a issue because it is very fluid to rotate the camera in these games.

You are aware that what you're describing is literally impossible, right? It's impossible to take a blurry screenshot when there is no actual blur being applied. The motion itself has the exact same blur as in the screenshot. You can clearly see it in the screenshots. Several people have explained to you that this is happening. There's literally hundreds of videos about this on Digital Foundry. It's baffling that you're still so much in denial about this obvious fact.

 

[ethomaz]

You are aware that what you're describing is literally impossible, right? It's impossible to take a blurry screenshot when there is no actual blur being applied. The motion itself has the exact same blur as in the screenshot. You can clearly see it in the screenshots. Several people have explained to you that this is happening. There's literally hundreds of videos about this on Digital Foundry. It's baffling that you're still so much in denial about this obvious fact.

Man I fired these games and nothing is like the screens posted.

Impossible is to say I see things that I'm not seeing lol

Imagine playing Destiny and moving the camera with that blur lol I couldn't even see a enemy to shot in Crucible but not I can move the camera and clearly see the enemy and kill him even at distance (of course if he don't kill me first lol).

 

[FukuDaruma]

And it's also used in 60fps games, your point is moot.

Yeah, it can be used in 240fps games also... the point is *it is not needed*, and that's why motion blur is the first feature most PC users turn off.

A 30fps game without any motion blur looks like a jumpy slideshow. A 60+ fps game does not.

 

[rofif]

Because I just fired up the game to rotate the camera lol

You only see it like you posted if I record in a video and took the frame screenshot.

I can see Nathan's car on my side when the camera rotate… and the buildings and others objects.

And that looking for it because you guys said it…. before that playing the game I never once realized that is a issue because it is very fluid to rotate the camera in these games.

Fucking exactly thank you !
These motion blur haters have no idea what they are talking about.
Each frame should be a "piece of time". Not a "still time freeze frame". Only that creates coherent motion. If You take 30 super sharp stills, of course it will look like shit. Even 60 grames. You dont need any motion blur only around 240 fps I noticed... at least on TN panel. On Oled it could we different.

The general idea is to cheat the brain and show it motion since you can only have 30 or 60 frames. Or like in movies 24 or 30.

 

[ethomaz]

Fucking exactly thank you !
These motion blur haters have no idea what they are talking about.
Each frame should be a "piece of time". Not a "still time freeze frame". Only that creates coherent motion. If You take 30 super sharp stills, of course it will look like shit. Even 60 grames. You dont need any motion blur only around 240 fps I noticed... at least on TN panel. On Oled it could we different.

The general idea is to cheat the brain and show it motion since you can only have 30 or 60 frames. Or like in movies 24 or 30.

Yes. It is a frame between movement so it has half the precious frame and half the next frame mixed.

But you don't see it like that in real time… you see the movement happening.

Maybe these guys have bionic eyes because most gamers won't even notice what they are talking… you need to specifically be aimed to find it.

 

[Rykan]

Fucking exactly thank you !
These motion blur haters have no idea what they are talking about.
Each frame should be a "piece of time". Not a "still time freeze frame". Only that creates coherent motion. If You take 30 super sharp stills, of course it will look like shit. Even 60 grames. You dont need any motion blur only around 240 fps I noticed... at least on TN panel. On Oled it could we different.

The general idea is to cheat the brain and show it motion since you can only have 30 or 60 frames. Or like in movies 24 or 30.

Sorry mate, but its you who doesn't know what he's talking about as you keep proving again and again. The very thought that you "Can't see it blurry in motion, only on still screenshots" is completely incorrect. The screenshot is a perfect capture of what is on that screen right now, which is a blurry mess. That doesn't dissapear if you suddenly add 29 additional identical frames to it. That's not how any of this works.

 

[Guilty_AI]

 

[rofif]

Sorry mate, but its you who doesn't know what he's talking about as you keep proving again and again. The very thought that you "Can't see it blurry in motion, only on still screenshots" is completely incorrect. The screenshot is a perfect capture of what is on that screen right now, which is a blurry mess. That doesn't dissapear if you suddenly add 29 additional identical frames to it. That's not how any of this works.

Absoluty not.
Wave a hand in front of your face, look outside the moving car to the side.... MOTION BLUR.
Viewing is analog. And not a collection of still frames. With 30 or 60 you have big gaps of time inbetween frames... so you need to cheat and blur together frames to make motion look correct.
If You multiply and have 240 or 480 or whatever (blurbusters says 1000hz is the vanishing point), then there are enought data frames to fill the missing information. You dont need motion blur.

The only thing I can agree on is that uncharted 4 is maybe incorrectly tuned but they retuned it for remaster.
Sekiro? That is lcd blur on your screenshot. That game don't have camera motion blur if I remember correctly or it is very limited.

Look at john from DF. He plays on oled with BFI and still uses motion blur. Motion blur is important and needed aspect. If you move your eyes or head fast, you also see that in reality.

I am not going to argue with you no more. I don't know what are you trying to acheive here. Motion blur is correct and should be used unless we have 400+fps/hz panels wth perfect motion handling.

 

[Swift_Star]

It's not moot. Motion Blur is significantly less noticeable at 60 FPS and even less so at higher framerates.


None of those screens were during a pause. This is what it looks like when you turn the camera in a 30 FPS games. You absolutely did see that when turning the camera because it's literally in the game. When you turn the camera in a 30 FPS game, aggressive motion blur is applied because the game is unplayable without it. I have no idea why you're denying this fact, it's literally right there in the pictures.

It's moot. Motion blur makes stuff more realistic. Motion without blur sucks, you can see every frame even in high fps, it's a terrible experience. Devs will keep using because it looks better.

 

[Whitecrow]

Entitled consumers are killing devs.

 

[Swift_Star]

Yeah, it can be used in 240fps games also... the point is *it is not needed*, and that's why motion blur is the first feature most PC users turn off.

A 30fps game without any motion blur looks like a jumpy slideshow. A 60+ fps game does not.

Of course it's needed. Motion has blur in real life. The lack of blur makes stuff unrealistic. It's impossible to see a fast moving sword without blur.

 

[rofif]

Of course it's needed. Motion has blur in real life. The lack of blur makes stuff unrealistic. It's impossible to see a fast moving sword without blur.

Exactly. That's why filming ... a waterfall or water fountain looks like shit with super fast shutter speed (no motion blur).
You see droplets flying around which you dont normally see in reality.


the same principle carries to 60 or 120fps. Just faster shutter speeds essentially.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Of course it's needed. Motion has blur in real life. The lack of blur makes stuff unrealistic. It's impossible to see a fast moving sword without blur.

Real life has blur of the movement itself, not added fake camera blur effect like in games.

 

[ethomaz]

Exactly. That's why filming ... a waterfall or water fountain looks like shit with super fast shutter speed (no motion blur).
You see droplets flying around which you dont normally see in reality.


the same principle carries to 60 or 120fps. Just faster shutter speeds essentially.

From that video higher the framerate, more motion blur you need to looks more life-like.

BTW funny enough I saw a GIF in the Horizon thread where I saw the motion blur moving the camera right now... it is something I shoud not noticed if we were not talking about it here right now... but it is still a GIF in like 10fps.

This pic... ohhhh before people says there is no framerate drop it just the GIF cutting most of the frames lol

 

[rodrigolfp]

That is lcd blur on your screenshot.

What? Screenshots capture the blur from the screen you are using???

 

[Guilty_AI]

I think people are missing the point here. It isn't about if motion blur makes it look more like real life or not. The main problem with motion blur is that it reduces the precision of the visual feedback.

If you're playing a fast paced game like some shooter or a racing game, that split second of blurry image when you literally can't see what is happening (not to mention the input delay these lower fps games often have) can be rather critical. Motion blur also doesn't respect the eye's focus point.

In the video of the fountain above, in real life if i choose to focus on specific droplets of water, i'd be able to see them in all their glory. I can't do that with a low-fps video even if the general look is better, i can do that with the higher fps video however.

 

[OLED_Gamer]

This 30fps hatred and takes is pure hyperbole. 30fps is fine. I'm glad I'm not as sensitive as these people.

No. Its terrible and needs to die. Its cool if you are into slideshows and image quality of toddler finger painting when panning a camera.

The disgusting stuttery motion and motion clarity @30fps is an absolute no go if there are ANY other options. Add post-proc motion blur to the mess that`s camera repositioning @ 30fps and you`re left with a modern art on your screen every time you move your camera.
It´s not a real issue as in "doesn´t work", it just absolutely sucks compared to 60+ fps.
And that`s just for "slow" games since we`ve not talked about input lag, yet.....

Agreed. I'm not buying 30fps games anymore. 60fps or no purchase.

 

[rodrigolfp]

I think people are missing the point here. It isn't about if motion blur makes it look more like real life or not. The main problem with motion blur is that it reduces the precision of the visual feedback.

If you're playing a fast paced game like some shooter or a racing game, that split second of blurry image when you literally can't see what is happening (not to mention the input delay these lower fps games often have) can be rather critical. Motion blur also doesn't respect the eye's focus point.

In the video of the fountain above, in real life if i choose to focus on specific droplets of water, i'd be able to see them in all their glory. I can't do that with a low-fps video even if the general look is better, i can do that with the higher fps video however.

Same people must also love needing glasses and not using it. Wow, blurry/out of focus images!!! Amazing!!!

 

[Swift_Star]

Real life has blur of the movement itself, not added fake camera blur effect like in games.

If you turn, or move your head fast, all the environment will blur, so your point is moot.
Also, devs are focusing more in per object motion blur. There's no way around this. Motion blur is a natural effect.

 

[Swift_Star]

No. Its terrible and needs to die. Its cool if you are into slideshows and image quality of toddler finger painting when panning a camera.

Agreed. I'm not buying 30fps games anymore. 60fps or no purchase.

It'll never die, so you better buy a beefy PC or make your peace with it. I know you're trying to look superior with the bolded but honestly, it makes you look sad and petty.