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Digital Foundry: Heard that Xbox Series S Is A "Pain" For Developers Due To Memory Issues
- Thread starter IbizaPocholo
- Start date
- Opinion Hardware
- Status
SegaSnatcher
Member
I still don't understand why they gimped the Series S so badly. They should have went with a $349.99 SKU with better ram setup.
GHG
Gold Member
Discussion? I don't see any discussion when all you're doing is regurgitating PR/marketing despite having no hands on experience in developing videogames for the platform in question.
I'll take the developers words over yours. Thanks.
Companion Cube
Member
This was already established last year by developers, Remedy being one to express XSS limitations but with less doom and gloom.
www.ign.com
Control Developer Says Sony Was 'a Bit More Ready' for Next-Gen Than Microsoft - IGN
Control developer Remedy's Thomas Puha says that the PS5 version of Control was a bit easier to get working than the Xbox Series version, due to hardware complications.
Devs choose the minimum specs. The XSS is not a choice, can't have XSX only.
Roberts
Member
Yeah, no matter who the source is, let's just do it through a tweet of one of the Twitter's notoriously toxic fanboys.
It's premature to say that XSS will be some sort of substantial problem in the future. As noted here, Matrix demo works on it and that is the first good sign that it will be OK for what it is.
It's premature to say that XSS will be some sort of substantial problem in the future. As noted here, Matrix demo works on it and that is the first good sign that it will be OK for what it is.
Gambit2483
Member
How long before Series S becomes a major albatross for MS' studios?
2 years? 3?
2 years? 3?
BigbyTheSheriff
Member
"A bit of a pain at times". So like every other past and current consoles with their own limitations.
Xbox One and PS4 had ancient CPUs when they released, and that was almost 10 years ago. Devs, however, managed to make some of the most impressive games ever like RDR2 or Last of Us 2.
I would say let's wait few more months for Redfall, Starfield, Plague Tale Requiem, Dead Space remake, to pass some judgement. If all these run good enough (1080p60), there's no need for further concern.
Xbox One and PS4 had ancient CPUs when they released, and that was almost 10 years ago. Devs, however, managed to make some of the most impressive games ever like RDR2 or Last of Us 2.
I would say let's wait few more months for Redfall, Starfield, Plague Tale Requiem, Dead Space remake, to pass some judgement. If all these run good enough (1080p60), there's no need for further concern.
Utherellus
Member
People discuss stuff like this sooo out of context.
Where are games that use Sampler Feedback Streaming to save on RAM by culling non-visible texture regions? There are NONE.
Where are games that use Mesh Shaders to save on RAM by culling non-visible parts of the mesh? There are NONE.
Where are games that rely on SSD to load RAM as less as possible? Actually there is one : Flight Simulator 2020. On PC it literally has background streaming slider which either fills up your RAM with assets or streams assets more aggressively, freeing up the RAM.
Devs literally just port cross-gen code over new consoles and call it a "struggle" to run games well, without using next-gen features.
Ferrari can't drive efficiently on countryside road. *Pretends to be shocked*
Where are games that use Sampler Feedback Streaming to save on RAM by culling non-visible texture regions? There are NONE.
Where are games that use Mesh Shaders to save on RAM by culling non-visible parts of the mesh? There are NONE.
Where are games that rely on SSD to load RAM as less as possible? Actually there is one : Flight Simulator 2020. On PC it literally has background streaming slider which either fills up your RAM with assets or streams assets more aggressively, freeing up the RAM.
Devs literally just port cross-gen code over new consoles and call it a "struggle" to run games well, without using next-gen features.
Ferrari can't drive efficiently on countryside road. *Pretends to be shocked*
BigbyTheSheriff
Member
What performance issues? You mean some games not supporting 60 FPS?
Ray tracing is there. Just look at Watch Dogs Legion, Observer, Resident Evil Village or Metro Exodus (fully Ray traced).
ParaSeoul
Member
Depends on the game. DMC 5 doesn't have ray tracing. Performance has been worse on Series S framerate wise when at the same framerate as the X and also the games not being not being 60 on some modes like you said. It was promised to be a Series X at 1080p but it clearly isn't.
kyliethicc
Member
ParaSeoul
Member
No console generation had to support two different versions of consoles within the same line with this much of difference in performance.
Riky
$MSFT
TheRiky is presented with 2 options.
Option A - ignore the developer who dared to criticize Rik’s precious Xbox.
Option B - agree with the developer who belongs to Rik’s beloved Xbox Game Studios.
Either way he loses. Let’s see which one he goes for.
I think they've already said that was before they got hands on, you can see because the "split" memory bandwith is in fact irrelevant because the 2gb slower speed is reserved for the OS only.
Maybe look at the 120fps mode on Doom Eternal and the interview with id after it shipped for clarification.
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phil_t98
#SonyToo
The
Option A - ignore the developer who dared to criticize Rik’s precious Xbox.
Option B - agree with the developer who belongs to Rik’s beloved Xbox Game Studios.
Either way he loses. Let’s see which one he goes for.
or option 3
you quote a tweet from over 2 years ago that hasn't really come to reality
Doctor Hades
Member
I think the Xbox Series S is a great console for parents with children who have non-4K TVs and who just want to play Fortnite or the latest Call of Duty (should kids even be playing that game???). It is clearly compromised in comparison to the X and we are already seeing games being released on S without ray-tracing, with sub-1080p resolutions and sometimes less graphical modes (some games have shipped with just a 30 fps mode). However, the target audience likely do not care for ray-tracing or graphical options, they just want a cheap console to play games on with their friends. It's hard to argue with the value for money that the Xbox Series S offers; it's the same price as a Switch but offers significantly more performance and better visuals than Nintendo's console.
The problem with the Series S is that is in some ways a downgrade from the Xbox One X, which had more memory (12 GB vs. 10 GB) and a more capable 4K GPU (6 TFLOPS vs. 4 TFLOPS) but a much weaker Jaguar CPU and much slower storage (5,400rpm HDD vs. SSD) yet Microsoft discontinued the Xbox One X and kept the inferior Xbox One S instead as the base Xbox model going forward. Microsoft should have kept the One X as the base machine in my opinion, reduced its price to £249, and released a digital-only version of the Xbox Series X (akin to what Sony did with the PS5) at £349.00. This then leaves the Series X at £449, offering the best all-round machine with a disc drive.
PC games have to be made to scale from lower to higher end hardware so, in theory, the Xbox Series S lesser specs should not hold back development of games for the Xbox Series X as this can run the same game with higher settings (4K textures, higher resolutions, ray-tracing etc). It still has an SSD and it's more limited RAM pool can be worked around by designing games around data streaming, which most open-world games use anyway. The lack of memory on the S so far seems to be the reason some games don't support ray-tracing but that isn't a huge loss really and is a feature that can still run on X.
Personally, I think the Series S could have been a more appealing buy for someone like me who upgraded from a One X but I can see why Microsoft did what they did. They wanted the cheapest possible system they could make for GamePass and that is what the Series S is.
The problem with the Series S is that is in some ways a downgrade from the Xbox One X, which had more memory (12 GB vs. 10 GB) and a more capable 4K GPU (6 TFLOPS vs. 4 TFLOPS) but a much weaker Jaguar CPU and much slower storage (5,400rpm HDD vs. SSD) yet Microsoft discontinued the Xbox One X and kept the inferior Xbox One S instead as the base Xbox model going forward. Microsoft should have kept the One X as the base machine in my opinion, reduced its price to £249, and released a digital-only version of the Xbox Series X (akin to what Sony did with the PS5) at £349.00. This then leaves the Series X at £449, offering the best all-round machine with a disc drive.
PC games have to be made to scale from lower to higher end hardware so, in theory, the Xbox Series S lesser specs should not hold back development of games for the Xbox Series X as this can run the same game with higher settings (4K textures, higher resolutions, ray-tracing etc). It still has an SSD and it's more limited RAM pool can be worked around by designing games around data streaming, which most open-world games use anyway. The lack of memory on the S so far seems to be the reason some games don't support ray-tracing but that isn't a huge loss really and is a feature that can still run on X.
Personally, I think the Series S could have been a more appealing buy for someone like me who upgraded from a One X but I can see why Microsoft did what they did. They wanted the cheapest possible system they could make for GamePass and that is what the Series S is.
kyliethicc
Member
Here we see the
Riky
going with option A. He blindly continues to pretend to think that the senior, experienced, award winning 1st party Xbox developer at iD Software, renown for their technical proficiency, knows less than Rik does.However, saying that Microsoft refused to allow this major development studio access to dev kits just a mere 6 weeks from launch was an interesting twist. Always able to keep us on our toes this guy.
It was predictable, but fun to see none the less.
Azurro
Banned
Ah, the "lazy devs" meme, a classic. Maybe the Series S is just a terrible "next gen" console?
Riky
$MSFT
Here we see the
However, saying that Microsoft refused to allow this major development studio access to dev kits just a mere 6 weeks from launch was an interesting twist. Always able to keep us on our toes this guy.
It was predictable, but fun to see none the less.
So you're saying that what I said is factually incorrect? That's how the memory is setup, fact. You know what a development kit is and it has a different hardware configuration to the retail console? Like I said he did an interview after the game was shipped which is more relevant now, try watching that.
BigbyTheSheriff
Member
I don't think it's that big of a problem when devs have years of experience working with PCs, ranging from 4 cores to 16 cores, 8 to 16 GB of RAM, HDD and SSD, GTX 1050 to RTX 3090.
Some of them will offer Series S games with Ray tracing or 60 FPS - maybe even both, or maybe neither.
I'll be first to admit I'm wrong if "next-gen" games start to really struggle on S, but for now I remain hopeful and optimistic.
kyliethicc
Member
Confused, the
Riky
goes wild here.He needs to discredit an authority on the topic, Billy Khan, so he appeals to authority - the very same Billy Khan lol
One of the early cross-gen title is now what is used to make an argument against hardware .... it is like saying "Demon Souls Remake would already use the full potential of the PS5". Repeating those claims over and over again doesn't make them true. And how often such a thread will be opened?
Yes, the memory limitation makes it harder (not easier).
Yes having more than 1 spec to code for makes it a bit harder (not easier).
Is scaling back graphics easy? Partially, yes. There will always be some exceptions but as we know it from the PC it is quite easy to scale something back in the graphics department without influencing the gameplay. There is really nothing in that small little consoles that can hold back anything. The memory size issue will probably just lead to the small issue, that the series S hardware won't be efficiently be used instead games will get scaled down (graphics-wise) until they run. But for those who buy such a console, graphics isn't that important. You can play the games and that is the important part.
My only real issue with the series S is, that it doesn't have a disc-drive.
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Does MS mandate the 3rd party developers for their games to run both on X and S? In future. Could we see " this game runs only on Xbox Series X" type of thing? If there's no a strict mandate. I suppose devs would just look at the X/S split, and decide either to ditch S or to keep it a the baseline.
kyliethicc
Member
Doubling down, the
Riky
continues his bold claims.Apparently the developer‘s career began in November 2020.
As did the concepts of programming, memory, and bandwidth.
BigbyTheSheriff
Member
MS wouldnt let anyone release games on Series X, and not S.
Duchess
Member
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
We all saw this coming when the specs were revealed.
We've seen it in tech analysis of games, where the Series S version runs at lower frame rates, lower resolutions, and without features such as ray tracing, geometry missing, lowered draw distance, etc. , etc.
Baffling that some members of this community continue to bang the drum its somehow the fault of the devs.
We all saw this coming when the specs were revealed.
We've seen it in tech analysis of games, where the Series S version runs at lower frame rates, lower resolutions, and without features such as ray tracing, geometry missing, lowered draw distance, etc. , etc.
Baffling that some members of this community continue to bang the drum its somehow the fault of the devs.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
lmao that Twitter is bottom tier console war stuff. Is this where you guys get your talking points from? And that Joe Miller guy? 
Riky
$MSFT
Xbox One 1.3tflops
Xbox One X 6tflops
Series S 4tflops
Series X 12tflops
The maths say otherwise and every One X game also ran on One S.
kingfey
Banned
Right, it's not like we get unfinished games at all.
Let's go a head and blame Xss. I mean, That console couldn't run flight simulator at all, since it was weak right?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Riky is right tbh. Why would the guy talk about split memory in the Series S if he had already worked with it? Makes no sense. So obviously he hadn't worked with it yet when writing that tweet. Or do you have another explanation?Doubling down, the
Apparently the developer‘s career began in November 2020.
As did the concepts of programming, memory, and bandwidth.
I have a X & S, X on the big TV, S on a smaller one... There is negligible difference playing on the two for the casual consumer. They serve different purposes,
Series X is the 4k console and the successor to the One X, Series S is the successor to Xbox One S. I'm not sure there is much merit in comparing One X to Series S. I always got the feeling the One X was Microsoft's move to win back the power mantle from Sony more of a statement to the market than something they were going to sell by the truckload, I assume with all that silicon they were not cheap or easy to make either.
Series X is the 4k console and the successor to the One X, Series S is the successor to Xbox One S. I'm not sure there is much merit in comparing One X to Series S. I always got the feeling the One X was Microsoft's move to win back the power mantle from Sony more of a statement to the market than something they were going to sell by the truckload, I assume with all that silicon they were not cheap or easy to make either.
Hitchyhero
Banned
This. I have both the series x and S... And I have no problems with the S. Images looks slightly blurrier, textures not as good, and frame rates slightly lower (although I would say the average casual player wouldnt notice that much difference) . I wasn't expecting anything else. It's a useful console for my casual games or when I just want a quick blast of something and the other TV Is being used.
I don't get the literal hate for this console. If you want a next gen console with all the bells and whistles.... Don't buy it
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
As someone described in this thread, it's backdoor console warring. They can't shit on the XSX for obvious reasons so they let it all out on the XSS
Slicker than your average
Banned
Thanks Phil for kneecapping 3rd parties this gen.
kingfey
Banned
Its console players, who are riding this 4k shit stuff.
Pc exists for a long time, where the devs were working on the lowest systems along side the highest systems.
Devs have experience with that. XSS is the target for their hatred, because of the belief that it will lower their gaming experience, while ignoring pc at the same time.
No they aren't forced on PC. What people don't realise is that the average spec on Steam is not all that important. In the same way as making cross gen games aren't all that important even though the install base of last gen is still much higher because the people who more actively buy games are the ones who invest in new GPUs, PS5s and Xbox Series. The issue with XSS is that a bunch of people are investing in a new limited machine and on xbox you are forced by policy. You can't decide to just make a XSX game.
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Riky
$MSFT
They explained why they couldn't just use the One X as the base system going forward.
"
I've read a lot of question on the internet, like, why isn't Microsoft going to continue Xbox One X as the low-end machine. Well, one thing is that it would last a long time through the generation and we felt that the new generation is defined by aspects such as the Xbox Velocity Architecture, and graphics features such as variable rate shading and ray tracing and the 4x processing performance boost on the CPU," counters Goossen. "And so we wanted to make sure that there was an entry level at the right price-point so that we could really advance the generation rather than hold it back. I've heard that Series S is going to hold back the next generation but I actually see Series S advancing it because by doing Series S we'll have more games written to the characteristics of the next generation."
There's also the matter of economics too. Our understanding is that a shrink of the Xbox One X's Scorpio Engine processor wouldn't be easy, while the wide memory interface isn't easily rationalised for an entry-level product. Its 12GB of GDDR5 (with 12 DRAM modules on the mainboard) would also be very hard to reduce down.
"The other ironic thing is that we did look at Xbox One X and we couldn't get it down to the price-point we wanted to get, so I look at Xbox Series S and it's cheaper than Xbox One X, it would have all of these next-gen features and then in terms of graphics performance, well you guys know this, but the per-cycle improvements with the new RDNA 2 architecture are like a 25 per cent improvement. If we just do the back of the envelope math right now, 4TF brings you up to 5TF just according to that factor.
"And some of the data we're seeing with our content is suggesting that it's even better, and then when you think about other features of the new architecture that we've added like variable rate shading and FP16, you know, I think that could get us the additional 20 per cent to pretty much equal the performance for new games... and it's cheaper and you get all the other features that define the new generation. And so for me, it was an easy decision "
The memory is split into low speed memory and even lower speed memory. He is not talking about CPU and GPU memory. It isn't all reserved for OS.
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ParaSeoul
Member
This implies teraflops were ever a good way to measure performance. A teraflop on GCN is different from one on Navi.
Just a thought game:
If a PC dev reaches a point, where supporting low-end hardware might impact their vision for their game OR require so much time/resources for optimizations to make it work, that the ROI might not be worth it, are they or are they not able to rise their minimum requirements and simply not support that low-end hardware?
Is the same possible on Xbox?
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