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[mckmas8808]

They haven't changed anything relatively to GaaS strategy. GaaS and PC is their solution for growth.
Single player games cost too much, take too long to be developed, they are bought by the same target audience.
Alone they can't sustain growth and could lead to an unsustainable business.
They need a mix of things and it's what they're trying to do.
If anything Helldivers2 will encourage them as the first actual market test.

They are cutting GAAS games left and right. Not doing that stupid 12 GAAS, but probably sliming it down to 7 or 8.

You know what I mean.

 

[yurinka]

They are cutting GAAS games left and right. Not doing that stupid 12 GAAS, but probably sliming it down to 7 or 8.

Nah, as far as we know they cancelled 2 (assuming they won't move the London Studio game to other team, I'd bet it's cancelled) and if Jason Shredder is wrong and the Twisted Metal he said wasn't still greenlighted and it was really cancelled but was instead the MP game Firesprite that has been under development during years then it would be 3.

So would be 9. Add the 3 Bungie IPs and then you have 12 GaaS IPs again.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Someone needs to tell Arrowhead that the GAAS market is saturated. Everyone already has their one "forever game". There's only 24 hours in a day. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

 

[mckmas8808]

Nah, as far as we know they cancelled 2 (assuming they won't move the London Studio game to other team, I'd bet it's cancelled) and if Jason Shredder is wrong and the Twisted Metal he said wasn't still greenlighted and it was really cancelled but was instead the MP game Firesprite that has been under development during years then it would be 3.

So would be 9. Add the 3 Bungie IPs and then you have 12 GaaS IPs again.

Why are you adding the 3 Bungie games? Weren't they part of the original 12 disciple games?

 

[mckmas8808]

How does one check and see what the top 5 online PSN games are for Playstation? I remember someone shown a screenshot that had Helldivers as the number one played online game on PSN two weeks ago.

But where did that data come from? And how can we check for an update this week?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Make great games - SP or GaaS. Focus on that first, the sales will come

A meaningless platitude. Every developer tries to make the best game possible given their time & budget constraints.

Demons Souls, Returnal, Alan Wake 2 are all great games with poor sales. You have to make games the masses want to play.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Why are you adding the 3 Bungie games? Weren't they part of the original 12 disciple games?

The 12 games thing was always attached to "before FY2025".

Certain people wanted to act like that was it, but they were always working on more than that.

 

[Seyken]

A meaningless platitude. Every developer tries to make the best game possible given their time & budget constraints.

Demons Souls, Returnal, Alan Wake 2 are all great games with poor sales. You have to make games the masses want to play.

That's a matter of developers not knowing how to budget and not understanding the market. Nothing wrong with making the game of your dreams with niche as hell gameplay and visuals, just UNDERSTAND that what you're trying to make is niche and budget accordingly so you can still profit from it.

If you're going to take a chance at getting a mass audience, you better bring what you think they'll like. The games you mentioned have some very glaring drawbacks that prevented them from getting the massive sales you may think they deserve.

Demon's Souls PS5 - It's a remake that absolutely butchered the original's art and music direction. That plus they didn't change the gameplay enough, it's still the first Demon's Souls, which just isn't as good as some of the other from titles that came after and that are readily available.

Returnal - I'm ready to get roasted on this one. I played the game from start to finish, it has great gameplay and boss fights, buuuuuuut...the visuals are unappealing as fuck. When it comes to both the main protagonist (what were they thinking) and how dark/drab everything looks, it just pushes some people away. Bullet hell games are not known for being mainstream. I'm convinced that if this game had a different art direction, it would've done a lot better numbers.

Alan Wake 2 - Loved by critics, but taking a look at GAF's OT, it's a divisive as fuck game. A LOT of people complaining about the gameplay, how the game is very boring, the story goes nowhere etc. That is not what you want for a game that is meant to sell millions.

Helldivers 1 is probably one such case where they probably deserved better sales, but the game being a top down shooter just makes it a more niche proposal. They evidently made enough back that allowed them to change that with the 2nd and hit critical mass.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

I'm trying to twist myself like a pretzel to figure out who this benefits.

PC owners who want to see more PS games

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That's a matter of developers not knowing how to budget and not understanding the market. Nothing wrong with making the game of your dreams with niche as hell gameplay and visuals, just UNDERSTAND that what you're trying to make is niche and budget accordingly so you can still profit from it.

If you're going to take a chance at getting a mass audience, you better bring what you think they'll like. The games you mentioned have some very glaring drawbacks that prevented them from getting the massive sales you may think they deserve.

Demon's Souls PS5 - It's a remake that absolutely butchered the original's art and music direction. That plus they didn't change the gameplay enough, it's still the first Demon's Souls, which just isn't as good as some of the other from titles that came after and that are readily available.

Returnal - I'm ready to get roasted on this one. I played the game from start to finish, it has great gameplay and boss fights, buuuuuuut...the visuals are unappealing as fuck. When it comes to both the main protagonist (what were they thinking) and how dark/drab everything looks, it just pushes some people away. Bullet hell games are not known for being mainstream. I'm convinced that if this game had a different art direction, it would've done a lot better numbers.

Alan Wake 2 - Loved by critics, but taking a look at GAF's OT, it's a divisive as fuck game. A LOT of people complaining about the gameplay, how the game is very boring, the story goes nowhere etc. That is not what you want for a game that is meant to sell millions.

Helldivers 1 is probably one such case where they probably deserved better sales, but the game being a top down shooter just makes it a more niche proposal. They evidently made enough back that allowed them to change that with the 2nd and hit critical mass.

I would argue Helldivers 2 has significantly bigger problems than the one's you listed for Alan Wake 2, Returnal, and Demons Souls. One of the roughest launches in modern times, bare bones content, iffy performance on console, glitches up the wazoo.

Game quality doesn't matter nearly as much as landing in the right genre. A genre the masses currently want to play.

 

[NickFire]

It's getting harder to not buy this before it's on sale. Losing faith it's growing on sale anytime soonish.

 

[DrFigs]

They are cutting GAAS games left and right. Not doing that stupid 12 GAAS, but probably sliming it down to 7 or 8.


You know what I mean.

Yeah but some of the games they're cutting weren't even greenlit? like the twisted metal one. this is maybe one of the reasons why fans being so invested in unannounced games is a bad thing? in the past, games just got cancelled and it wasn't the end of the world or the end of playstation when it happened.

edit: w/ factions 2, we knew that they took it out of tlou2 because they were being more ambitious. but what did we actually see of it? like basically an upresed version of factions 1 from leaked footage that was never meant to be shown to anyone and then some concept art.

 

[T-0800]

He was just upset that he had to walk home.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

It's getting harder to not buy this before it's on sale. Losing faith it's growing on sale anytime soonish.

It's 40$ for a game that will get endless content updates. It's a bargain

 

[mckmas8808]

A meaningless platitude. Every developer tries to make the best game possible given their time & budget constraints.

Demons Souls, Returnal, Alan Wake 2 are all great games with poor sales. You have to make games the masses want to play.

Demons Souls and Returnal sold well for what they were supposed to do. Sony said so for both. My interpretation of that is they made a profit.

But they also played a part in filling out the PS5 game library early on.

The 12 games thing was always attached to "before FY2025".

Certain people wanted to act like that was it, but they were always working on more than that.

Great point! So by March 2026 right? What are those games?

 

[Seyken]

I would argue Helldivers 2 has significantly bigger problems than the one's you listed for Alan Wake 2, Returnal, and Demons Souls. One of the roughest launches in modern times, bare bones content, iffy performance on console, glitches up the wazoo.

Game quality doesn't matter nearly as much as landing in the right genre. A genre the masses currently want to play.

I don't know about more significant...All the core parts of Helldivers 2 work, none of the problems are fundamental problems like in the games you mentioned. How many games do you see reworking their whole visual style after launch? Or reworking the entire gameplay/story to be less boring/ more fulfilling?

The server issues were caused by the unexpected success, the content is very much related to that as well. They "wasted" the first 3 weeks of their launch trying to get the servers up to snuff. For all intents and purposes, this past week was probably the game's first TRUE week. The content drops should be judged from now on since they can finally focus on that.

I agree that I'd love if performance on console can eventually become a locked 60fps even on the highest difficulty, but I still consider the current level of performance kind of impressive considering how much is going on at all times on screen.

And I agree that game quality isn't the be all end all, a game can be rough around the edges but still get a lot of players to play it, but it needs to be novel enough or have VERY strong core parts working even in its rough state (see PUBG and to some extent Palworld). But that's just a testament to how much developers can sometimes nail the core of something so hard that people will just look past the minor stuff.

 

[ahtlas7]

I love Super Earth!

 

[Killjoy-NL]

HD2 took 7 years of development time. It has amazing 3rd person animations, sound design, and the best use of procedural generation I have ever seen. We are at least 5 years from a AAA studio even releasing a game that could theoretically match HD2

I would be shocked if HD2 doesn't end up the most profitable Sony game of all time. I think even with minimal updates it will pass a gaas game like Destiny, imo. The gameplay loop is just so much better

Tbf, Destiny had an outstanding gameplay loop and top-tier gunplay as well.

Gameplay was not the issue with Destiny at all.

Destiny went downhill due to terrible business decisions, nothing more.
Good thing Sony is about to take control if Bungie management continues messing things up.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

A meaningless platitude. Every developer tries to make the best game possible given their time & budget constraints.

Demons Souls, Returnal, Alan Wake 2 are all great games with poor sales. You have to make games the masses want to play.

Uh, no, not meaningless

Not all devs are trying to make the best game possible. Its not necessarily the dev's fault either; executive management is driving them to make certain decisions for their games which is causing them to be bloated or gamified rather than focusing on the main things that matter

See: Ubisoft, etc

 

[PectacularOz]

Took exactly two minutes to make this about Xbox. That's pretty cool.

Helldivers is a good game. It deserves the success.

Theyre allowed to be sad. I would be.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I don't know about more significant...All the core parts of Helldivers 2 work, none of the problems are fundamental problems like in the games you mentioned. How many games do you see reworking their whole visual style after launch? Or reworking the entire gameplay/story to be less boring/fulfilling?

The server issues were caused by the unexpected success, the content is very much related to that as well. They "wasted" the first 3 weeks of their launch trying to get the servers up to snuff. For all intents and purposes, this past week was probably the game's first TRUE week. The content drops should be judged from now on since they can finally focus on that.

I agree that I'd love if performance on console can eventually become a locked 60fps even on the highest difficulty, but I still consider the current level of performance kind of impressive considering how much is going on at all times on screen.

And I agree that game quality isn't the be all end all, a game can be rough around the edges but still get a lot of players to play it, but it needs to be novel enough or have VERY strong core parts working even in its rough state (see PUBG and to some extent Palworld). But that's just a testament to how much developers can sometimes nail the core of something so hard that people will just look past the minor stuff.

In an alternate universe where Helldivers 2 struggles with sales, would you not say it was because of server issues, lack of content, spotty performance on consoles, and bugs?

Here are the Metalcores for each...

Helldivers 2 - 82
Returnal - 86
Demons Souls Remake - 92
Alan Wake 2 - 89

It's far better to make an OK game in the perfect genre than it is to make a perfect game in the wrong genre.

Uh, no, not meaningless

Not all devs are trying to make the best game possible. Its not necessarily the dev's fault either; executive management is driving them to make certain decisions for their games which is causing them to be bloated or gamified rather than focusing on the main things that matter

See: Ubisoft, etc

My point was that the phrase "Just make a great game and the sales will come" has been proven wrong time and time again that no one should be saying it anymore.

Your game has to land in a genre the masses want to play.

 

[Elios83]

They are cutting GAAS games left and right. Not doing that stupid 12 GAAS, but probably sliming it down to 7 or 8.

The cut has nothing to do with a change in strategy though, it's them realizing that a few of these projects weren't as good as they thought so it was pointless to continue to invest in those projects.
But they're still fully committed to GaaS and PC as pillars to sustain future growth.
The CFO and soon to be SIE's CEO has been pretty clear on the matter. They're not happy with the trajectory the traditional business is taking, they need to expand or things will become unsustainable long term.
The key is in a balanced approach.

 

[crackajack]

One has to wonder if the success would also have been possible without the lower price tag, if 60 or even 70 would have just delayed it or actually already choked it too much.

The conclusions finance suits can read in the current releases must be irritating. Foamstars with Plus Essential starting aid gets kinda ignored, Suicide Squad and Skull and Bones with regular full prices are laughed at and this right in between, the only big success.

 

[mckmas8808]

In an alternate universe where Helldivers 2 struggles with sales, would you not say it was because of server issues, lack of content, spotty performance on consoles, and bugs?

Here are the Metalcores for each...

Helldivers 2 - 82
Returnal - 86
Demons Souls Remake - 92
Alan Wake 2 - 89

It's far better to make an OK game in the perfect genre than it is to make a perfect game in the wrong genre.


My point was that the phrase "Just make a great game and the sales will come" has been proven wrong time and time again that no one should be saying it anymore.

Your game has to land in a genre the masses want to play.

You're thinking too much like an executive. Making a great game has to be the first priority. Not being in the perfect genre.

One has to wonder if the success would also have been possible without the lower price tag, if 60 or even 70 would have just delayed it or actually already choked it too much.

The conclusions finance suits can read in the current releases must be irritating. Foamstars with Plus Essential starting aid gets kinda ignored, Suicide Squad and Skull and Bones with regular full prices are laughed at and this right in between, the only big success.

The takeaway should be that the game people like the most is the key. The lower price helps, but Foamstars isn't hitting because people just aren't liking it. The price for Suicide Squad isn't too high. The game just isn't good lol.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You're thinking too much like an executive. Making a great game has to be the first priority. Not being in the perfect genre.

No, you're not thinking enough like an executive.

There are too many great games that flop.

You have to identify why they flop and notice the patterns.

"Make a great game" is a meaningless phrase.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

No, you're not thinking enough like an executive.

There are too many great games that flop.

You have to identify why they flop and notice the patterns.

"Make a great game" is a meaningless phrase.

Two of the most critically AND financially successful games of the last few years are non gaas. Baldurs Gate 3 and Elden Ring. How does this fit into your calculations?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Two of the most critically AND financially successful games of the last few years are non gaas. Baldurs Gate 3 and Elden Ring. How does this fit into your calculations?

Critical acclaim means nothing. Industries shift towards money, not what Jeff Gerstmann types like.

Palworld is more financially successful than both those games.

Companies know making an Elden Ring or a Baldurs Gate 3 is near impossible. Making a Palworld, Enshrouded, Last Epoch, Lethal Company, or Helldivers 2 is much more feasible.

You have to go where the market is soft.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Critical acclaim means nothing. Industries shift towards money, not what Jeff Gerstmann types like.

Palworld is more financially successful than both those games.

Companies know making an Elden Ring or a Baldurs Gate 3 is near impossible. Making a Palworld, Enshrouded, Last Epoch, Lethal Company, or Helldivers 2 is much more feasible.

You have to go where the market is soft.

You're also forgetting a recent gaas bomb. That suicide squad game. Its clearly not a sure fire thing. That took years to make and a huge budget.

If you want the game industry made up of nothing but cheap streamer trash like Lethal company and palworld then I don't think you have your head screwed on right. Those games will be forgotten in a few months.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

*picture of sad phil.

the moment i was getting mexican YT HD2 videos i knew this shit went global.

i guess people love demoncracy

Don't worry Phil's got Palworld.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

You're also forgetting a recent gaas bomb. That suicide squad game. Its clearly not a sure fire thing. That took years to make and a huge budget.

If you want the game industry made up of nothing but cheap streamer trash like Lethal company and palworld then I don't think you have your head screwed on right. Those games will be forgotten in a few months.

Suicide Squad didn't got a fair shot. Everyone had made up their minds before playing it.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You're also forgetting a recent gaas bomb. That suicide squad game. Its clearly not a sure fire thing. That took years to make and a huge budget.

Alan Wake 2 bombed as well.

The market is showing us a clear reality right now. It's basically impossible to succeed in AAA if you're not working with a big name IP and a massive budget.

The Live Service market is comparatively healthy. New IP and games of various budget sizes are succeeding. It's very clear at this point.

If you want the game industry made up of nothing but cheap streamer trash like Lethal company and palworld then I don't think you have your head screwed on right. Those games will be forgotten in a few months.

If you don't like those games that's fine, but more people do.

 

[mckmas8808]

No, you're not thinking enough like an executive.

There are too many great games that flop.

You have to identify why they flop and notice the patterns.

"Make a great game" is a meaningless phrase.

I'm sorry bro, but the bolded is INSANE thinking! Pure insanity!!! You gotta stop this.

 

[mckmas8808]

Alan Wake 2 bombed as well.

The market is showing us a clear reality right now. It's basically impossible to succeed in AAA if you're not working with a big name IP and a massive budget.

The Live Service market is comparatively healthy. New IP and games of various budget sizes are succeeding. It's very clear at this point.


If you don't like those games that's fine, but more people do.

How are Elden Ring or Death Stranding big-name IPs?

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Alan Wake 2 bombed as well.

The market is showing us a clear reality right now. It's basically impossible to succeed in AAA if you're not working with a big name IP and a massive budget.

The Live Service market is comparatively healthy. New IP and games of various budget sizes are succeeding. It's very clear at this point.


If you don't like those games that's fine, but more people do.

What's that Ubisoft pirate live service game that just came out? Skull and Bones? Didn't that bomb as well? There is a saturation point for gaas games. Just because you love your fortnite so much doesn't mean everything has to be fortnite. We can have all of the different game types. Nintendo games are hugely financially successful and literally, none of those are gaas.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I'm sorry bro, but the bolded is INSANE thinking! Pure insanity!!! You gotta stop this.

It's as meaningless as a coach telling his team "We have to go out there and give 110%!"

It's vague, generic, and generally unhelpful. As if any developer would hear it and think "Oh wow, maybe we should try to make a great game this time!"

It's cartoonish.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

There is a saturation point for gaas games.

I agree, there is.

But you're also nuts if you think we're at that point.

The next 5 to 10 years is going to be miserable for people who want to believe in your statement.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I agree, there is.

But you're also nuts if you think we're at that point.

The next 5 to 10 years is going to be miserable for people who want to believe in your statement.

I must admit that you say so many batshit things my judgment might be clouded. We'll see I guess. I'm not worried though. Not at all.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's as meaningless as a coach telling his team "We have to go out there and give 110%!"

It's vague, generic, and generally unhelpful. As if any developer would hear it and think "Oh wow, maybe we should try to make a great game this time!"

It's cartoonish.

Do you think great games like GTA5, Elden Ring, God of War, and Zelda: BOTW just happen to be good by pure luck? Or do you think there's a science and art to making a great game?

 

[Kacho]

I agree, there is.

But you're also nuts if you think we're at that point.

The next 5 to 10 years is going to be miserable for people who want to believe in your statement.

You are also nuts if you think most games can be successfully monetized like GTAV was.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Helldivers was released February 8th and today, March 5th it's still #1 on Steam's best sellers.

When was the last time this happened? Even something like Palworld couldn't do this.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Do you think great games like GTA5, Elden Ring, God of War, and Zelda: BOTW just happen to be good by pure luck? Or do you think there's a science and art to making a great game?

I think most publishers + developers generally try to make the games they're working on great. Obviously plenty of external factors can prevent that from happening.

Some genres are cooked.
Some genres are vibrant.

Avoid the cooked genres and go where there's hope.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You are also nuts if you think most games can be successfully monetized like GTAV was.

The bar for success is not "as successful as GTAV".

 

[Lokaum D+]

make a good game = profit

 

[poppabk]

What's that Ubisoft pirate live service game that just came out? Skull and Bones? Didn't that bomb as well? There is a saturation point for gaas games. Just because you love your fortnite so much doesn't mean everything has to be fortnite. We can have all of the different game types. Nintendo games are hugely financially successful and literally, none of those are gaas.

Thing is both Suicide Squad and Skull and Bones were in shambles before they even released. It's not GaaS in of itself, more that most people don't know how to make a good one.

 

[Kacho]

The bar for success is not "as successful as GTAV".

For these large companies it is. They're chasing Fortnite and GTAV, not Helldivers 2.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

For these large companies it is. They're chasing Fortnite and GTAV, not Helldivers 2.

Wrong again.

They're chasing money. They're chasing ROI.

You think Arrowhead Studios or PlayStation views Helldivers 2 as a failure because it didn't reach Fortnite or GTAV levels of success?

Is Honda a failure because they never became as big as Ford?

 

[Fake]

Industry will learn all the wrong lessons from this and suicide squad.

I already heard this before.

Liberal hates learning lessons thats for sure.

 

[Kacho]

Wrong again.

They're chasing money. They're chasing ROI.

You think Arrowhead Studios or PlayStation views Helldivers 2 as a failure because it didn't reach Fortnite or GTAV levels of success?

Is Honda a failure because they never became as big as Ford?

15 years ago companies weren't chasing EverQuest with their shitty MMOs, they were chasing World of Warcraft. Same applies here.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

15 years ago companies weren't chasing EverQuest with their shitty MMOs, they were chasing World of Warcraft. Same applies here.

 

[Kacho]

I'm just saying what they're really doing. They want the next cash cow like the top dogs. Are you only now learning this?