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[wipeout364]

So the company can improve its vetting process and who they hire, which will lead to higher quality workers being chosen.

Everyone wins. Don't wanna be stuck with bad workers, don't slack off on the hiring phase.

Have you ever been involved in hiring? I have many times, It’s a complete crapshoot. Most letters of reference are completely useless. if you are hiring someone who is unemployed you have to wonder why, if you are hiring someone who is employed you can’t call where they work without getting the person fired . If you are hiring right out of college or university you have no idea what kind of worker you are getting.

You make it sound like it’s the fault of the company that people naturally put on a front and hide their true selves. You can verify credentials, and then you are kind of stuck with your gut feeling.

 

[EDMIX]

Or, you know, some semblance of job security and stability to support their families.

Why do gamers hate the people that make their games so much?

Yup, they want 8K, VR, new features, free expansions, oh but you better ask for money

For a industry with so much money in it, those developers should be getting much more.

 

[wipeout364]

What do you mean significant seniority? Senior leadership teams? Failing upwards is a common trope with them with or without unions.

Seniority is time in position/company in unions it trumps everything. Union members are generally not supposed to be in leadership roles. Taking leadership roles in many companies means you need to resign from the union because if you have low seniority you should not be telling a union member with more seniority what to do.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Have you ever been involved in hiring? I have many times, It’s a complete crapshoot. Most letters of reference are completely useless. if you are hiring someone who is unemployed you have to wonder why, if you are hiring someone who is employed you can’t call where they work without getting the person fired . If you are hiring right out of college or university you have no idea what kind of worker you are getting.

You make it sound like it’s the fault of the company that people naturally put on a front and hide their true selves. You can verify credentials, and then you are kind of stuck with your gut feeling.

Some people will always blame the manager or company.

Although, it does give that side credit for being the ones with the brains and responsibility to cover all bases. It's part of being a boss. People expect them to know everything, instead expecting non-bosses to use their head and have some accountability at work too.

 

[PropellerEar]

To me, if more people in the world put in better effort and attitude, youd be more productive and a company will keep you more.

Total non sense

The reason why companies fire people or outsource is because they believe they can still get the job done withe less people or cheaper people. Even if means outsourcing to a group of people half way around the world and trying to sort out time zones or setting up new costly factories and training new people taking years, it can still be worth it in the long run.

Say that to Tango Game Works, probably most cost effective studio from Bethesda acquisition.

Most people are not unionized and tons of people make good wages. If the world was that barebones to the last nickel, every company would just hire new graduates at whatever salary they'll accept looking for a job. And if they quit, just find other people who will work for as close to minimum wage as possible.

For some positions thats exactly how it works, companies almost exploit the lower paid workers, even use child labour in poverty ridden countries just to pay minimum wage possible.

That's not reality and never has been.

Its always been reality.

Thats because companies will open up the wallet and pay if anyone is good enough.

DEI hires?

If someone is nervous they'll get outsourced by someone because they did a bad job or some random guy 5000 miles away who speaks another language but can do a job just as good or better than them, it means they arent a great employee to begin with. And thats why they want job protection.

You have a very limited, frankly juvenile view of the world. In this scenario of yours it was never even about the greatness of the employee, it was about cost cutting.

 

[feynoob]

Seniority is time in position/company in unions it trumps everything. Union members are generally not supposed to be in leadership roles. Taking leadership roles in many companies means you need to resign from the union because if you have low seniority you should not be telling a union member with more seniority what to do.

You are right. When idiots choose idiots for big positions, its unions fault. I am sorry, but companies choose dumb people for big position. And sometimes, little bit nepotism offers you better ranks.

The reality is, companies dont value seniority. They value cheap labor.

 

[feynoob]

For some positions thats exactly how it works, companies almost exploit the lower paid workers, even use child labour in poverty ridden countries just to pay minimum wage possible.

Some people are too comfortable with their jobs, that they dont see this shit stuff their companies do behind their backs.
No company gets big without exploiting its workers.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Total non sense

Say that to Tango Game Works, probably most cost effective studio from Bethesda acquisition.

For some positions thats exactly how it works, companies almost exploit the lower paid workers, even use child labour in poverty ridden countries just to pay minimum wage possible.

Its always been reality.

DEI hires?


You have a very limited, frankly juvenile view of the world. In this scenario of yours it was never even about the greatness of the employee, it was about cost cutting.

Life is simple.

Do a good job at a budget the company can afford and you keep your job. If someone else can do the job just as good (or better) at cheaper or whatever metrics they want to use determining it's better to go elsewhere, it means someone else is better. Do a better job, and there's less chance of getting outsourced.

Are there instances it doesn't work out? Sure. I got downsized too in a restructure where two divisions got combined into one. So a bunch of us got gassed due to redundancies. Big woop. Got another job so fast I didnt even collect one EI payment. Brush up the resume and some interviews. And boom. Got another finance job in a different sector.

The avg salary in Canada/US are roughly the same... close to $60,000 each (in their own currency). That's the same as $30/hr. There's actually a small number of people who even make minimum wage or close to it. Most people make way more than that with zero union needed.

So the money is out there. People just got to be good enough to get a good job and keep it. I get paid literally the same as 3 university grads. If my company wanted to save uber bucks, just fire all vets and replace us all with college grads. Instantly, the company would save millions in salary and bonus. They dont. Same with Bethesda in this thread. Evilore posted a pic of various roles all paying over $100k US. Some close to $200k. Bethesda can go cheap and find $50k people if they want. There will be takers looking for a job. But they dont because they know if they want talent, they need to pay.

 

[darrylgorn]

The employer wants the employee to do as much work as possible, for the lowest pay possible.

The employee wants to do as little work as possible, for as much pay as possible.

Value is negotiating the difference between the two.

 

[PropellerEar]

Life is simple.

It's definitely not simple.

Do a good job at a budget the company can afford and you keep your job.

Say that to Tango Game Works, prob most performant and cost effective team at Bethesda/Zenimax.

If someone else can do the job just as good (or better) at cheaper or whatever metrics they want to use determining it's better to go elsewhere, it means someone else is better. Do a better job, and there's less chance of getting outsourced.

That's a very childish view, like I said say that to Tango Game Works, who were doing better job than most of other MSFT studios.

I've been layed off with a full team that was breaking industry records, just because of company internal politics, thanks to Union I got 1,5 year salary, full bonuses also vacation days payed in full. I could just bank that money and move to another job, just like all my colleagues in the team, it was never about the skill or working harder.

So the money is out there. People just got to be good enough to get a good job and keep it. I get paid literally the same as 3 university grads. If my company wanted to save uber bucks, just fire all vets and replace us all with college grads. Instantly, the company would save millions in salary and bonus. They dont. Same with Bethesda in this thread. Evilore posted a pic of various roles all paying over $100k US. Some close to $200k. Bethesda can go cheap and find $50k people if they want. There will be takers looking for a job. But they dont because they know if they want talent, they need to pay.

Like I said juvenile way of thinking.

 

[Toons]

And what if the worker is great in an interview, gets the job and sucks afterwards, then what? Why should companies be handcuffed to bad workers?

Companies should bear the responsibilities of their hiring choices. They hvae various capabilities to greatly reduce the likelihood of gettng bad workers including:

Clear, concise and comprehensive requirements and expectations listed in the hiring page.
Fair or competitive compensation for the caliber of worker they want, and a clear communication of said compensation
A thorough but fair interview process conducted by an interview with a clear idea of what they are looking for and a clear shortlist of deal breaking factors and strong points they can refer back to.
And other things.

Sure bad workers will still pop up but having these things reduces the ability of the union to cover them anyway

 

[StreetsofBeige]

It's definitely not simple.

Say that to Tango Game Works, prob most performant and cost effective team at Bethesda/Zenimax.

That's a very childish view, like I said say that to Tango Game Works, who were doing better job than most of other MSFT studios.

I've been layed off with a full team that was breaking industry records, just because of company internal politics, thanks to Union I got 1,5 year salary, full bonuses also vacation days payed in full. I could just bank that money and move to another job, just like all my colleagues in the team, it was never about the skill or working harder.


Like I said juvenile way of thinking.

And where's the proof Tangoworks was a highly profitable studio. Their recent games were Ghostwire, a mobile game called Hero Dice and Hi Fi Rush.

Be happy. You got a solid severance payout for not working at a company. You make it sound like youre the only person in the world who gets severance packages. Non-union do too. And we dont pay union dues.

But since youre a union guy, just do a good job and listen to the rules. Youre a grown adult who is supposed to have the brainpower to make decisions for yourself and do a job. If a union rep and laundry list of rules are needed to keep you in check to do a job, then you definitely are someone who needs union guidance.

Not everyone wants to be handcuffed to rules. We can negotiate our own pay and tasks with our boss instead of hiding behind a union rep. Even a child in school talks to their teacher directly instead going to mommy and daddy first.

 

[Toons]

Life is simple.

Unions exist because it isn't.

What is simple is that powerful people in their powerful companies have zero compunction about screwing you over to ensure their continued gain. This is not a secret, an opinion. It is a fact.

Do a good job at a budget the company can afford and you keep your job. If someone else can do the job just as good (or better) at cheaper or whatever metrics they want to use determining it's better to go elsewhere, it means someone else is better. Do a better job, and there's less chance of getting outsourced.

There is not a single corporate job in America where the company cannot afford to pay you more. Find me one and I'll find out what that corporations owners bonuses were at the end of last year that they didn't need. Quality is not the primary factor. Saving money and retaining profit margins is.

Are there instances it doesn't work out? Sure. I got downsized too in a restructure where two divisions got combined into one. So a bunch of us got gassed due to redundancies. Big woop. Got another job so fast I didnt even collect one EI payment. Brush up the resume and some interviews. And boom. Got another finance job in a different sector.

That restructure was going to happen regardless of how your division did because it saved the corporation money. You say "big woop" like a kid who's had his lunch money taken. Problem is it doesn't make it ok that your lunch money was taken.

The avg salary in Canada/US are roughly the same... close to $60,000 each (in their own currency). That's the same as $30/hr. There's actually a small number of people who even make minimum wage or close to it. Most people make way more than that with zero union needed.

60,000 would be awesome if if was 1999 nut its not. Substract from that a decent car, insurance, general expenses, medical.. and your down to about half that, maybe less. And if you paid for a college education to get one of the jobs that pays that much...? You're already starting 60k in the hole.

So the money is out there. People just got to be good enough to get a good job and keep it. I get paid literally the same as 3 university grads. If my company wanted to save uber bucks, just fire all vets and replace us all with college grads. Instantly, the company would save millions in salary and bonus. They dont.

Until they do.

Its happened before.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Unions exist because it isn't.

What is simple is that powerful people in their powerful companies have zero compunction about screwing you over to ensure their continued gain. This is not a secret, an opinion. It is a fact.



There is not a single corporate job in America where the company cannot afford to pay you more. Find me one and I'll find out what that corporations owners bonuses were at the end of last year that they didn't need. Quality is not the primary factor. Saving money and retaining profit margins is.



That restructure was going to happen regardless of how your division did because it saved the corporation money. You say "big woop" like a kid who's had his lunch money taken. Problem is it doesn't make it ok that your lunch money was taken.



60,000 would be awesome if if was 1999 nut its not. Substract from that a decent car, insurance, general expenses, medical.. and your down to about half that, maybe less. And if you paid for a college education to get one of the jobs that pays that much...? You're already starting 60k in the hole.



Until they do.

Its happened before.

End of the day, the money is there.

As I said before (which you cant dispute), if companies were all so cheap, then the avg salary should be minimum wage as everyone would be offered junk wages. But they arent since companies will pay for talent. That Bethesda pic has tech jobs paying $100-200k. If they dont care about quality, then can the entire company and rehire as many college grads for cheap to make games. The SG&A expenses (basically employee costs) would drop like a rock and poof! Profits just skyrocketed.

 

[Myths]

So do most of these people in the industry make low six figures?

 

[PropellerEar]

And where's the proof Tangoworks was a highly profitable studio. Their recent games were Ghostwire, a mobile game called Hero Dice and Hi Fi Rush.

So a good/great and productive studio and the developers there doesn't deserve any protection from bad leadership decisions at Xbox

Be happy. You got a solid severance payout for not working at a company. You make it sound like youre the only person in the world who gets severance packages. Non-union do too. And we dont pay union dues.

I can say negotiation power from only my side individually would have been pretty much non-existent.

But since youre a union guy, just do a good job and listen to the rules.

I'm Union when possible and sometimes not like with my current contract.

Youre a grown adult who is supposed to have the brainpower to make decisions for yourself and do a job. If a union rep and laundry list of rules are needed to keep you in check to do a job, then you definitely are someone who needs union guidance.

Why would I need guidance from Union rep, never even talked with them, even my managers don't give me guidance it's more like I guide them, most of the time managers have no clue, glorified secretaries and that is what they should be.

Not everyone wants to be handcuffed to rules.

Everybody at a workplace has rules to follow, in my case Union has not enforced any rules on me, more like protected me from so stupid ones companies try to enforce.

We can negotiate our own pay and tasks with our boss instead of hiding behind a union rep.

This still applies even with Union in many cases, everybody can still negotiate, results always matter, Union in many cases just negotiate the minimum raise limits.

Even a child in school talks to their teacher directly instead going to mommy and daddy first.

You have some weird ideas, how Unions work in game development/software development.
You have childish world view and seemingly minimal real work life experience like I said.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So a good/great and productive studio and the developers there doesn't deserve any protection from bad leadership decisions at Xbox

I can say negotiation power from only my side individually would have been pretty much non-existent.

I'm Union when possible and sometimes not like with my current contract.

Why would I need guidance from Union rep, never even talked with them, even my managers don't give me guidance it's more like I guide them, most of the time managers have no clue, glorified secretaries and that is what they should be.

Everybody at a workplace has rules to follow, in my case Union has not enforced any rules on me, more like protected me from so stupid ones companies try to enforce.

This still applies even with Union in many cases, everybody can still negotiate, results always matter, Union in many cases just negotiate the minimum raise limits.

You have some weird ideas, how Unions work in game development/software development.
You have childish world view and seemingly minimal real work life experience like I said.

If youre a respected and valuable person, you can negotiate your own pay, tasks and settlement packages even if youre on the way out. All you do is not sign the first offer and go back at them the next day with counter terms. It's not hard. I dont know one person ever fired who went back with counter terms getting the door slammed in their face. They'll talk since they always got room and dont want things dragged on with labour lawyers involved or the guy calling the city's labour council about unfair dismissal. Ok, maybe a french fry cook wont have much leverage, but were talking decent office jobs.

Youre a smart guy, did you know you can negotiate a pay out even if you want to quit on your own? Sounds weird. But totally doable. I know many people who did. To get a package, you dont have to wait forever to get fired.

Hey if you want start it off posting clown gifs, I can keep it going calling you lazy with no guts to do your own thing.

 

[Fess]

In Bethesda, MD or surrounding areas? Yeah, it’s pretty damn bad as house prices are generally well over $1 mil. Well, in Bethesda itself and surrounding areas more like $2mil.

You would have to move out for about 40 min or more car based commute, and get an old house in a meh condition in a meh neighborhood. That will still be like $800K min.

Also, this is US and meh neighborhoods can mean shootings at night or even not at night.

Is this true? Then why are people even living in the US? You’re really making it seem like the shittiest place. Unsafe and expensive. With a monthly salary at $5-6k I could buy another highend PC every month. I don’t get even half of that after taxes.
What’s a standard middle-class worker salary and how’s their living conditions?

 

[evanft]

Good for them.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

The American perspective on this seems so weird.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Is this true? Then why are people even living in the US? You’re really making it seem like the shittiest place. Unsafe and expensive. With a monthly salary at $5-6k I could buy another highend PC every month. I don’t get even half of that after taxes.
What’s a standard middle-class worker salary and how’s their living conditions?

Canada and US are similar in that most high population metro hubs have super high cost of living. Rents and home prices really started to skyrocket I'd say about 10 years ago. It always edged up naturally, but it really oddly spiked past decade. Maybe more, maybe less, but close enough.

You can find cheaper homes in smaller towns and less popular states or provinces, it can get totally reasonable in prices. problem is most people dont want to live in Nova Scotia or Tennessee, and the jobs there wouldnt compare to a metro gig. But the cost of living ratio will be better in those cheap places even if your salary is shittier. So it's a classic case of do you want to pay up for best job and cool city living? Or take a step back and live in a more costs effective, but possibly more boring town? Thats up for each person or family to decide. I know sales people in Winnipeg and Regina in cheap homes compared to Toronto. They love it there. I wouldnt, but hey I'm not them and they arent me.

In US/Canada, the avg annual wage are similar. Around $60,000 ($30/hr).

As a quick tip for people. Assuming you work FT hours, to find out your hourly wage, take your salary and divide by 2000. This is the ballpark hours you work in a year. This would exclude any other bonus or comp you get. But if you wanted to do that math, just add up all your annual compensation into one giant number and divide by 2000. It's not perfect math as everyone works different hours and holidays etc.... But close enough.

 

[PropellerEar]

If youre a respected and valuable person, you can negotiate your own pay, tasks and settlement packages even if youre on the way out.

Total nonsense, in layoff situation or closing e.g. a studio hardly no-one is "valuable" anymore.

All you do is not sign the first offer and go back at them the next day with counter terms. It's not hard. I dont know one person ever fired who went back with counter terms getting the door slammed in their face. They'll talk since they always got room and dont want things dragged on with labour lawyers involved or the guy calling the city's labour council about unfair dismissal. Ok, maybe a french fry cook wont have much leverage, but were talking decent office jobs.

Union will do all of this to everyone even pay for legal fees, even for the cook.

Youre a smart guy, did you know you can negotiate a pay out even if you want to quit on your own? Sounds weird. But totally doable. I know many people who did. To get a package, you dont have to wait forever to get fired.

Yeah, it's possible but that usually requires mutual intent, wanting to quit and wanting to get rid of the employee.

Hey if you want start it off posting clown gifs, I can keep it going calling you lazy with no guts to do your own thing.

Post somewhat well thought-off arguments, and not juvenile babys got an opinion level stuff.

 

[Fess]

Canada and US are similar in that most high population metro hubs have super high cost of living. Rents and home prices really started to skyrocket I'd say about 10 years ago. It always edged up naturally, but it really oddly spiked past decade. Maybe more, maybe less, but close enough.

You can find cheaper homes in smaller towns and less popular states or provinces, it can get totally reasonable in prices. problem is most people dont want to live in Nova Scotia or Tennessee, and the jobs there wouldnt compare to a metro gig. But the cost of living ratio will be better in those cheap places even if your salary is shittier. So it's a classic case of do you want to pay up for best job and cool city living? Or take a step back and live in a more costs effective, but possibly more boring town? Thats up for each person or family to decide. I know sales people in Winnipeg and Regina in cheap homes compared to Toronto. They love it there. I wouldnt, but hey I'm not them and they arent me.

In US/Canada, the avg annual wage are similar. Around $60,000 ($30/hr).

$60,000 a year in average is quite insane. Why are people complaining over $70 games and $20 subscription fees? What’s the total average monthly living cost? House/apartment, water, electricity, loans, insurrance, internet, etc.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

$60,000 a year in average is quite insane. Why are people complaining over $70 games and $20 subscription fees? What’s the total average monthly living cost? House/apartment, water, electricity, loans, insurrance, internet, etc.

I cant speak for other cities, but in Toronto a decent 1 bedroom/1 bath/parking spot rental is probably minimum $2000 alone. More if it's a nice place or closer to downtown. I charge my tenant $2500/mth for my suburban rental property and she even pays for all utilities. As landlord I pay for monthly condo fee and property tax.

So right there already, a renter wanting a small condo rental is paying I'd say $24,000/yr minimum just on rent. But more likely after utilities and such $30,000 is probably a closer avg for a starter condo rental.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

$60,000 a year in average is quite insane. Why are people complaining over $70 games and $20 subscription fees? What’s the total average monthly living cost? House/apartment, water, electricity, loans, insurrance, internet, etc.

It's all about what's left over.

Also, and I'm not defending pricing, but gamers complain about everything as a default.

 

[Sorne]

Jesus christ the corporate brainwash in this thread from American people.

Unions are good. Period.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Youre a smart guy, did you know you can negotiate a pay out even if you want to quit on your own? Sounds weird. But totally doable. I know many people who did. To get a package, you dont have to wait forever to get fired.

You live in some competency bubble. The fact of the matter is, most people aren't capable of even negotiating effectively, or have any idea how.

 

[Fess]

I cant speak for other cities, but in Toronto a decent 1 bedroom/1 bath/parking spot rental is probably minimum $2000 alone. More if it's a nice place or closer to downtown. I charge my tenant $2500/mth for my suburban rental property and she even pays for all utilities. As landlord I pay for monthly condo fee and property tax.

So right there already, a renter wanting a small condo rental is paying I'd say $24,000/yr minimum just on rent. But more likely after utilities and such $30,000 is probably a closer avg for a starter condo rental.

Seems like an absurd cash flow when looking at the numbers from the outside. Capitalism like nothing else. And it’s true that it’s unsafe living further away from the big cities?
Seems unsustainable, you lose however you do, you either waste a high salary or you live in fear.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Seems like an absurd cash flow when looking at the numbers from the outside. Capitalism like nothing else. And it’s true that it’s unsafe living further away from the big cities?
Seems unsustainable, you lose however you do, you either waste a high salary or you live in fear.

Only a cash cow if there's zero or low mortgage on it.

Mortgage rates are about 6%. My $2500/mth less mortgage, maintenance fees, insurance, property tax, management fee and I'm roughly making maybe $200.

But even scraping by, Im still getting equity which might be only $5000/yr now due to interest rates (ballpark guess). But the key is condo price appreciation which is around $250,000. As a estimate based on trends, every 0.25% interest/mortgage rate decrease and my investment property goes up around an additional $5000. As a landlord, the key aim is to be monthly net neutral on rent vs cost outlay. If someone can pull off a juicy positive cash flow net gainer that's awesome. But nobody wants to be in the red. You also got to budget for a rainy day since theres always chance you'll get a deadbeat tenant. I've been burned for around $6,000. And so have my parents and friends. But some of them are good and never had an issue. As an old buddy told me long time ago being a landlord, never expect full payment. Budget that you'll get 90% of what you are entitled to because theres chance you'll get a deadbeat at some point. No bank gives you a break to stop mortgage payments if your tenant doesn't pay.

As for safety, every city and country is different. Canada is incredibly more safer than the US. Night and day.

 

[Fess]

Only a cash cow if there's zero or low mortgage on it.

Mortgage rates are about 6%. My $2500/mth less mortgage, maintenance fees, insurance, property tax, management fee and I'm roughly making maybe $200.

But even scraping by, Im still getting equity which might be only $5000/yr now due to interest rates (ballpark guess). But the key is condo price appreciation which is around $250,000. As a estimate based on trends, every 0.25% interest/mortgage rate decrease and my investment property goes up around an additional $5000. As a landlord, the key aim is to be monthly net neutral on rent vs cost outlay. If someone can pull off a juicy positive cash flow net gainer that's awesome. But nobody wants to be in the red.

As for safety, every city and country is different. Canada is incredibly more safer than the US. Night and day.

I just think the numbers are incredibly high, it all seems absurd but I’m far away from US so can be difficult to compare. I now assume I make less than half of most people here. No shame flaunting my 4090 anymore.

Sounds like the countryside life needs to get some positive hype. It’s nice to go outside and poke in a garden, play some ball with kids and go fishing etc. Working from home being more common should mean distance to a big city office is no problem. What’s great about big city life?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I just think the numbers are incredibly high, it all seems absurd but I’m far away from US so can be difficult to compare. I now assume I make less than half of most people here. No shame flaunting my 4090 anymore.

Sounds like the countryside life needs to get some positive hype. It’s nice to go outside and poke in a garden, play some ball with kids and go fishing etc. Working from home being more common should mean distance to a big city office is no problem. What’s great about big city life?

I agree. More subtle cheaper locations with quieter lifestyles should be looked at if someone cant afford a pricey metro area or the job pressure is too high.

Problem is not everyone can or wants to move to small towns or states/provinces. If they are raised a metro citizen, they want to stay a metro citizen for life. And what do most immigrants do when they want to find a place to work or live? Pretty sure they arent looking into Winnipeg or Saskatoon. It'd probably be a beeline to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver metro areas as priorities.

For me, my plan is to work maybe 10 years more and retire. I'm going evaluate whether I cash out on investments or not then or keep em going, but one thing I'm doing for sure is move farther away (small town vibe, not rural farming and fields). Buy a modest home for cheap and bank the difference and coast till I die. If I need to meet up with fam and friends no problem. I'll drive the extra time. It's not like I'm hanging out with them every day.

 

[BattleScar]

Life is simple.

Do a good job at a budget the company can afford and you keep your job. If someone else can do the job just as good (or better) at cheaper or whatever metrics they want to use determining it's better to go elsewhere, it means someone else is better. Do a better job, and there's less chance of getting outsourced.

Are there instances it doesn't work out? Sure. I got downsized too in a restructure where two divisions got combined into one. So a bunch of us got gassed due to redundancies. Big woop. Got another job so fast I didnt even collect one EI payment. Brush up the resume and some interviews. And boom. Got another finance job in a different sector.

The avg salary in Canada/US are roughly the same... close to $60,000 each (in their own currency). That's the same as $30/hr. There's actually a small number of people who even make minimum wage or close to it. Most people make way more than that with zero union needed.

So the money is out there. People just got to be good enough to get a good job and keep it. I get paid literally the same as 3 university grads. If my company wanted to save uber bucks, just fire all vets and replace us all with college grads. Instantly, the company would save millions in salary and bonus. They dont. Same with Bethesda in this thread. Evilore posted a pic of various roles all paying over $100k US. Some close to $200k. Bethesda can go cheap and find $50k people if they want. There will be takers looking for a job. But they dont because they know if they want talent, they need to pay.

You're talking like companies should always have the upper hand in salary negotiations, and that workers should just "work harder or better to get paid more". This is bullshit.
That's not how things work in reality. This concept of "Work hard, get promoted" is a bald faced lie.

Companies are out here to extract as much work as possible from you at the lowest possible price, so the business owners and execs can get a bigger cut of the money you've made for them.
If you work hard, they will be more than happen to keep your salary low. You can ask for a raise, but one person is replaceable. If they have multiple people brainwashed into believing hard work = raises/promotions, and it seems like they have, there will be a dime a dozen fools to replace you with if you decide to leave. You're just a cog in the machine.

However, a unionised workforce is not quite so easily replaceable. It's much easier negotiating when you have the backing of a collective, than as an individual. That's why union blue collar jobs pay better and have better working conditions than non-union. Same should apply to white collar. Companies are making billions off your back, you should be able to fight for a piece of that pie. If you don't, the white collar CEOs are gonna buy another yacht with your hard earned dollars.

Remember. A company is trying to get the maximum amount of work out of their workers for the lowest possible price.
So, workers should be trying to get the maximum possible wage/salary for the least amount of work done. It's only fair.
Companies don't give a shit about you, so why should you give a shit about the company?

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Companies should bear the responsibilities of their hiring choices.

That's in a perfect world, not in one where competency is not the only hiring criteria. You can't force diversity hires by law and hold those companies responsible when they fail.

 

[deriks]

Well....it depends.


A good friend of mine who did Software Engineer stuff at the company I'm manager in, recently left cause they got an offer from Netflix of all places for their game division.

They offered my guy $350K, this is literally $100k more then what he was currently getting (not telling ya'll until I leave here) company lol

So....Netflix sir, Netflix of all places to be paying that for a senior role, but Bethesda to not pay that for even 20 years experience is wild

https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listi...etflix-JV_KO0,30_KE31,38.htm?jl=1009357012731

Granted, I don't know all the details of the role he got other then it being a senior engineer role for their gaming area.

It just sounds like Bethesda and MS would be bigger companies in gaming then Netflix and would be having much higher pay imho.


Like...my god, I'm just a manager at IT company and I make close to some of them and I have zero background in software or engineering or something and the managers above me make equal to more then what is listed.

(hint, we are not a fucking company as massive as Bethesda or Microsoft)

It could pay more, but it is better to work there?

A lot of people think that winning more money is the key to success. A tip: it's not. I bet that Koji Kondo has a better life than Bob Kotick, mostly because he has money enough to pay his stuff and sleeps well enough knowing that still makes art that we really care. That's the goal

I'm IT manager too, with my little company nowadays, and there was a time that I won more and worked on a company that was really shitty. I went fucking bald because of it. Wasn't really worth it, but I was young and dumb, seeking only for money

 

[Fess]

I agree. More subtle cheaper locations with quieter lifestyles should be looked at if someone cant afford a pricey metro area or the job pressure is too high.

Problem is not everyone can or wants to move to small towns or states/provinces. If they are raised a metro citizen, they want to stay a metro citizen for life. And what do most immigrants do when they want to find a place to work or live? Pretty sure they arent looking into Winnipeg or Saskatoon. It'd probably be a beeline to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver metro areas as priorities.

For me, my plan is to work maybe 10 years more and retire. I'm going evaluate whether I cash out on investments or not then or keep em going, but one thing I'm doing for sure is move farther away (small town vibe, not rural farming and fields). Buy a modest home for cheap and bank the difference and coast till I die. If I need to meet up with fam and friends no problem. I'll drive the extra time. It's not like I'm hanging out with them every day.

Yeah I understand about being born into it. I’m a country boy and can’t see myself live in some chaotic metro city. I get stressed out just walking around in a big city, 5 minutes between subway/busses and people run and bump into people to not miss them ???? Chill.

Sounds like a good retirement plan. Can’t say I have any grand plans myself, realistically I know I’ll end up in a puny appartment when I get old but other than that I like where I am. I have a low salary but I have a house and live a relatively stress-free life now in a calm area and I have my family and my hobby stuff, I don’t need more than that.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Yup, they want 8K, VR, new features, free expansions, oh but you better ask for money

For a industry with so much money in it, those developers should be getting much more.

And a lot of devs can take those skills and go into another industry and make a lot more money with better benefits, more stability, and no crunch. The only thing that keeps people in the industry is passion for what they are making, and companies exploit that passion with lower pay and poor working conditions. And so eventually a lot of people do leave.

 

[thefool]

I work in a union shop. They protect bad workers. It is extremely difficult to get rid of people who have significant seniority. Unless they are not showing up for work, doing something criminal or stealing you are out of luck. You will will not be able to get rid of low performance employees and they will continue to abuse every benefit they can and get raises due to time in job not their performance.

Edit: I am not saying the majority of people are bad, most are great but unions spend most of their time protecting the crappy outliers and they get the greatest Advantage from a union environment.

They are all like this. They exist for unskilled and lazy workers piggyback the work of competent individuals and gatekeep younger employees.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Remember kids, unions are always born from abusive policy by employers. They aren't the result of well paid employees with job security and good benefits just getting greedy and deciding they need a little extra. Every single time they are the result of very legitimate grievance.

The game industry underpays compared to other industries for similarly skilled work, it's a revolving door of layoffs and hires, it often pressures employees to do large amounts of unpaid overtime, and those are the reasons people want to unionize, not greed.

Remember what the world looked like before labor unions. Wildly unsafe jobs with poverty wages, long hours, no benefits, and no security. It was only through unions that basic things we take for granted like weekends were earned. And that labor revolution had positive effects even for non-union jobs. But only because the threat of unions exists.

 

[Toons]

End of the day, the money is there.

At the end of the day, the money isn't where it needs to be. Its in the hands of people who don't need it, don't deserve it, and barely work for it at this point. It just keeps stacking up for them. Where it isn't, is in the hands of people who make the company continue to function.

 

[Toons]

That's in a perfect world, not in one where competency is not the only hiring criteria. You can't force diversity hires by law and hold those companies responsible when they fail.

Making it illegal to reject someone based on the color of their skin or whats in their pants is not forcing diversity hires.

Its preventing corporations with little to no oversight from abusing their power in a country where they have shown precedent, intent, and ability to do so.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

At the end of the day, the money isn't where it needs to be. Its in the hands of people who don't need it, don't deserve it, and barely work for it at this point. It just keeps stacking up for them. Where it isn't, is in the hands of people who make the company continue to function.

Nah. It belongs where it should be. All of us non-unionized office staff make way more than the unionized warehouse staff. It works fine. we also get bigger bonuses, company cell phones and first dibs when IT says they got laptops to get rid of since the lease is over. No need to change anything.

 

[SHA]

 

[PropellerEar]

Nah. It belongs where it should be. All of us non-unionized office staff make way more than the unionized warehouse staff. It works fine. we also get bigger bonuses, company cell phones and first dibs when IT says they got laptops to get rid of since the lease is over. No need to change anything.

What a joke, you thought he was referring to useless middle management like you.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

What a joke, you thought he was referring to useless middle management like you.

Relax warrior. Were just having fun here. Why are you so angry when it comes to discussions like this?

If it makes you feel better just keep bragging about your union perks and severance pay out like before.

 

[Toons]

Nah. It belongs where it should be. All of us non-unionized office staff make way more than the unionized warehouse staff. It works fine. we also get bigger bonuses, company cell phones and first dibs when IT says they got laptops to get rid of since the lease is over. No need to change anything.

No. Its not. Corproations don't have your interests at heart. Its unfortunate you dont realize that bit its the reality nonetheless.

It will become clear in time.

 

[StereoVsn]

I just think the numbers are incredibly high, it all seems absurd but I’m far away from US so can be difficult to compare. I now assume I make less than half of most people here. No shame flaunting my 4090 anymore.

Sounds like the countryside life needs to get some positive hype. It’s nice to go outside and poke in a garden, play some ball with kids and go fishing etc. Working from home being more common should mean distance to a big city office is no problem. What’s great about big city life?

US can be a very very expensive place to live if we are talking major metropolitan areas.

It’s high rent prices ($2-5K for 1bdroom) or high housing prices. You also have high mortgage rates, high condo fees (can be $1k in a high rise), utilities/internet/mobile, car payments (car is necessary outside a small handful of places), house and car insurance, and let’s not forget ruinous cost of healthcare even with employer insurance support at work. And throw in surging food prices.

That Bethesda software engineering salary in a pricey DC suburb gets burned through very fast. And if they have kids, daycare around DC can run $1,800 to $2,500 a month per kid easily depending on the age. And you better be putting away money for college because that shit is expensive as well.

Salaries aren’t the only thing that matters. Cost of living is a huge factor.

Edit: on the subject of remote work. A lot of employers are cracking down on that and requiring at least hybrid presence in the offices. Remote jobs have an incredible number of applicants now days and are not easy to get at all. Talking about technical fields at least.

So you can’t just move out to say Idaho or Ohio and enjoy lower cost of living. Good jobs are much harder to get there.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

US can be a very very expensive place to live if we are talking major metropolitan areas.

It’s high rent prices ($2-5K for 1bdroom) or high housing prices. You also have high mortgage rates, high condo fees (can be $1k in a high rise), utilities/internet/mobile, car payments (car is necessary outside a small handful of places), house and car insurance, and let’s not forget ruinous cost of healthcare even with employer insurance support at work. And throw in surging food prices.

That Bethesda software engineering salary in a pricey DC suburb gets burned through very fast. And if they have kids, daycare around DC can run $1,800 to $2,500 a month per kid easily depending on the age. And you better be putting away money for college because that shit is expensive as well.

Salaries aren’t the only thing that matters. Cost of living is a huge factor.

Excellently said.

In modern times (right now past few years where interest rates/mortgages are sky high PLUS home prices remained high), it's got to a point I think for a lot of people you got to seriously make a decision if you cant take the pressure or cost of living in a metro city, you got to scope out other places to live. If not, then youre going to be miserable trying to work for 40 years and scrape by with nothing at age 65. If someone is already established and can handle high rent and 6% mortgages, ok it's not a big deal. But for other people, at least consider it.

Just because it's much more fun in metro areas with tons of stuff to do, someone could be born and raised in a city, best HQ jobs are in meteo areas and all their core friends and fam are there, ya I get it. But it doesn't help their situation unless they can figure out how to make it work. And for me, I've always been someone who wants an earnings/cost of living situation where I'm comfortable ---- Not still scraping by when I'm 40 years old. I scraped by for 2-3 years after graduating with my entry level inventory analyst job. And there's no way I'm living like that forever.

It's up to people. I think a lot of people who dont want to move dont realize how much cheaper it can be an hour or two away. A home might be 50% cheaper.

 

[nemiroff]

Some of you Americans sure have an unique attitude towards unionization. Never quite understood why. I live in a country where almost 60% of the workforce is unionized, and life's generally pretty good and peaceful.

 

[StereoVsn]

Excellently said.

In modern times (right now past few years where interest rates/mortgages are sky high PLUS home prices remained high), it's got to a point I think for a lot of people you got to seriously make a decision if you cant take the pressure or cost of living in a metro city, you got to scope out other places to live. If not, then youre going to be miserable trying to work for 40 years and scrape by with nothing at age 65. If someone is already established and can handle high rent and 6% mortgages, ok it's not a big deal. But for other people, at least consider it.

Just because it's much more fun in metro areas with tons of stuff to do, someone could be born and raised in a city, best HQ jobs are in meteo areas and all their core friends and fam are there, ya I get it. But it doesn't help their situation unless they can figure out how to make it work. And for me, I've always been someone who wants an earnings/cost of living situation where I'm comfortable ---- Not still scraping by when I'm 40 years old.

It's up to people. I think a lot of people who dont want to move dont realize how much cheaper it can be an hour or two away. A home might be 50% cheaper.

Yeah, for example if we are talking same DC area, moving couple of hours South to Richmond, VA or couple of hours Northwest to West Virginia, PA, or Western Maryland could cut those costs tremendously.

Personally I couldn’t do it since all my friends are here, relatives are nearby, public schools are good (let’s not even start on cost of private schools in US, lol), and I would be bored in the countryside.

That said, I am married with dual income (wife makes as much as I do), and I have had decent luck with house purchases (got in with very low rate on my current place). And we have been doing decent enough on investing for retirement.

Without that sort of a support I would probably be somewhere in the Midwest doing IT for an insurance company and paying less than 1/2 living cost for like 25% less salary. Living in major US metro on even what used to be a good salary (say $80-100k) sucks.

 

[StereoVsn]

Some of you Americans sure have an unique attitude towards unionization. Never quite understood why. I live in a country where almost 60% of the workforce is unionized, and life's generally pretty good and peaceful.

It’s the whole “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” bullshit that’s been peddled since the early 1900s.

Plus there have been some shady as shit Union leaders with very public failures.