Support NeoGAF

[Blitzkrieg!]

The Witcher 3 pulled them off well, but that was a while ago.

Agree, though Yen and Trish teaming up to clown me was painful.

 

[pudel]

They should consider just dropping romance subplots all together. They are always cringe (unless you get to see tits) and are more trouble than they’re worth.

Nah....I loved the romances in Witcher ie. and somehow nobody was "offended" that Geralt was a straight dude. It seems impossible to replicate this nowadays. If devs are getting lower scores just because they decide that their main char is hetero like 90% of the population....than something is terribly wrong.

 

[DaciaJC]

Proportions, how do they work

I think the point he was trying to drive at was that adding a "large" number (in absolute terms) of people from a certain subset to a team can have a deleterious effect on the workplace culture and output, even if the proportions remain more or less consistent. For example, consider a case where a team of 50 consists of one devout Muslim who complains that he doesn't have any space or privacy among the cubicles of the small office building to practice his daily prayers and demands that an entire room be sequestered for his exclusive use. Quite probably nothing would come of it. Then scale up by a factor of 100. If they present a united front, those 100 Muslims would have a lot more weight to throw around to management and HR concerning perceived discrimination and offenses against their religion, even if they still represent only two percent of the entire workforce. As far as the companies he cited, such as Insomniac, it's very possible that not only the total number but also the proportion of women and LGBT-identifying people has increased in those studios, which may correlate to certain qualities of their recent productions.

I would request that you review the permaban for Nickolaidas. I think his argument to take into consideration the composition of modern studios has some merit, even if he may have been off the mark concerning the specific example of Warhorse.

 

[EDMIX]

They should consider just dropping romance subplots all together.

nahhh i don't know about all that, I love em lol With RPGs, part of it is playing a role and I tend to like games that at least have that as an option to add something extra to the experience. Like the ability to get married in Skyrim lol I love all that, I think it should stay optional, but I like it still being in RPGs like this to add something dynamic

 

[Fake]

Surprise surprise.

 

[jason10mm]

Yeah, BG3's biggest problem at release was every character propositioning you for sex at the smallest hint that you're being polite with them. Honestly ridiculous.

I try to think that this is just a meta-commentary for trying to show how women feel when dealing with men. One polite comment and suddenly you got a stalker

Cyberpunk has some issues there too. It can get awkward when you know you're one dialogue option away from getting intimate with that cop guy at all times, on a mission where you hang out with him for hours and talk about your emotional baggage over drinks while looking at the moonlight. In order to maximize the roleplaying options things can get pretty far away from a natural situation.

Damn, forgot all about that guy. But absolutely YES. That character, had the game "known" you were not interested in a male romance, could have been a great bit of male bonding but instead its tainted by the vibe that he is always 2 seconds away from going in for a kiss.

 

[BigBeauford]

I really really don't give a shit. This is one of the greatest games ever made. Truly your loss of you avoid it because of this.

 

[EviLore]

I think the point he was trying to drive at was that adding a "large" number (in absolute terms) of people from a certain subset to a team can have a deleterious effect on the workplace culture and output, even if the proportions remain more or less consistent. For example, consider a case where a team of 50 consists of one devout Muslim who complains that he doesn't have any space or privacy among the cubicles of the small office building to practice his daily prayers and demands that an entire room be sequestered for his exclusive use. Quite probably nothing would come of it. Then scale up by a factor of 100. If they present a united front, those 100 Muslims would have a lot more weight to throw around to management and HR concerning perceived discrimination and offenses against their religion, even if they still represent only two percent of the entire workforce. As far as the companies he cited, such as Insomniac, it's very possible that not only the total number but also the proportion of women and LGBT-identifying people has increased in those studios, which may correlate to certain qualities of their recent productions.

I would request that you review the permaban for Nickolaidas. I think his argument to take into consideration the composition of modern studios has some merit, even if he may have been off the mark concerning the specific example of Warhorse.

Sure, company culture will change as you scale up, not always in expected ways, and can introduce problems. But can we really expect a gaming studio with 250 employees to not have at least a handful of women? We have a fully integrated workforce in the West. Should it be like a nuclear submarine deployment?

 

[jason10mm]

Sure, company culture will change as you scale up, not always in expected ways, and can introduce problems. But can we really expect a gaming studio with 250 employees to not have at least a handful of women? We have a fully integrated workforce in the West. Should it be like a nuclear submarine deployment?

Those ARE integrated now....goes about as well as you would expect...

Navy: Women secretly filmed in shower aboard sub

The Navy is investigating the alleged filming of female officers in a shower changing area for more than a year.

www.navytimes.com

 

[Buggy Loop]

2017:

2023:

Women day photo. Can't they? Are you really trying to sell the idea that all males left the studio? They shrunk as they ramped up their ambition? WTF is even this kind of post. Disingenuous.

This thread is misleading. He says, and I quote:

"Maybe we avoided being called sexist this time because we have the guys there" (meaning the same sex optional relationship)

He is not saying that was the specific reason they decided to put it there. Also, this is a comedy show. The host then follows up with "but that's not enough these days, you are missing they/thems/its".

Oh so its fucking nothing

But no drama in that. Where's my dopamine hit? And again a whole bunch of peoples caught with stupid posts by jumping to conclusions too fast. Reminds me of the double Wukong translation drama.

 

[nemiroff]

I played through the game without experiencing a single event like this. Who gives a shit.

 

[adamsapple]

Women day photo. Can't they? Are you really trying to sell the idea that all males left the studio? They shrunk as they ramped up their ambition? WTF is even this kind of post. Disingenuous.

You're correct, it is a women's day photo from their official social media.




I'm guessin Pandawan probably picked it from one of those twitter accounts spreading it around January or so this year.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

I played through the game without experiencing a single event like this. Who gives a shit.

Quite apparently the developers were forced to

 

[adamsapple]

Quite apparently the developers were forced to

They weren't forced to do anything, lol. Stop this nonsense.

 

[EDMIX]

They weren't forced to do anything, lol. Stop this nonsense.

Agreed, if the director decides to place something like this in their own game, I don't know if I can really use the term "forced" and its odd cause the first game's success shows that none of this was even needed for anyone to even argue some threat of such a claim would hurt the game or something.

So, tbh...I don't really know why they did this in their own game and I'm not sure I fully believe the whole "to avoid sexism" as who would stop the game from existing, succeeding etc if released as is?

 

[San Dan Glokta]

They weren't forced to do anything, lol. Stop this nonsense.

Putting a gun to someone's head isn't the only way to force them to do something. I imagine you know exactly what I mean and thus are trying to minimize my statement. Stop acting obtuse.

 

[StereoVsn]

Seems much to do about nothing based on actual context. That said, I think romance with Hans was a bit forced (as an option) considering the circumstances of the first game.

And Musa’s character could have been done better, but I think it’s still good to have different people in a large Bohemian city during the time period.

Overall KCD2 got a LOT more right than wrong and it’s still one of the best games to come out over last several years.

 

[LordCBH]

On the one hand, it’s completely optional. On the other hand, who gives a shit if you’re accused of sexism? It literally means nothing anymore.

 

[adamsapple]

Putting a gun to someone's head isn't the only way to force them to do something. I imagine you know exactly what I mean and thus are trying to minimize my statement. Stop acting obtuse.

You're describing a fabricated scenario.

This OP article is a translation snafu.

and Vavra himself said around the game's launch that nothing was added that they didn't intend to.

 

[JayK47]

Still comes across as pandering and trying to reach a wider audience while possibly pissing off fans of the original. Classic modern game development.

 

[pudel]

Agreed, if the director decides to place something like this in their own game, I don't know if I can really use the term "forced" and its odd cause the first game's success shows that none of this was even needed for anyone to even argue some threat of such a claim would hurt the game or something.

So, tbh...I don't really know why they did this in their own game and I'm not sure I fully believe the whole "to avoid sexism" as who would stop the game from existing, succeeding etc if released as is?

People forget that Vavra is isnt his own man anymore. He has "overlords" called Embracer Group. I am pretty sure he is just taking the shots for them ...since the beginning.

 

[EDMIX]

Putting a gun to someone's head isn't the only way to force them to do something. I imagine you know exactly what I mean and are trying to minimize my statement. Stop acting obtuse.

nahhh I don't think adamsapple is saying he doesn't get how someone might do this, merely that he doesn't see this as "forced" , I don't see how anyone is forcing them to do anything here considering the first game's success and consider lots of games success without any of this.

On the one hand, it’s completely optional. On the other hand, who gives a shit if you’re accused of sexism? It literally means nothing anymore.

^ This.

The claim itself is not only baseless, it doesn't even make sense if you consider the first game still exist, so I'm not really seeing what would really compel someone to do this in their own game enough to use the term "forced" as I'm sure a group exist that would call this sexist, I'm not sure they have enough power that the director felt the entire game was at risk if he didn't make the character his way or something.

Still comes across as pandering and trying to reach a wider audience while possibly pissing off fans of the original. Classic modern game development.

I'm more willing to believe that this is the real reason that he added it then some fear of "sexism" , maybe the director felt by being more progressive, he could reach a wider audience buying the game, but also wanted some excuse for the core fans as to why it was added or something to save face.

Right now, I don't know if I can believe the real reason this was added was some fear of being called sexist as that never actually stopped the first game's success to really make it seem as if this was a do or die type of move.

Strong doubt.

 

[Hudo]

The Witcher 3 pulled them off well, but that was a while ago.

I might get shit for this but I think that the Liara romance over the course of the 3 Mass Effect games was solid. And the one between Fei and Elly in Xenogears was surprisingly mature for a JRPG.

 

[Aldynes]

Imagine a game similar to this but the twist would be your main character would be sent into the future into a REE utopia, kinda like the movie Idiocracy.

 

[San Dan Glokta]

nahhh I don't think adamsapple is saying he doesn't get how someone might do this, merely that he doesn't see this as "forced" , I don't see how anyone is forcing them to do anything here considering the first game's success and consider lots of games success without any of this.

I know that's what Vavra said, because of course he will. My issue isn't with the with the game but with the broader shitstorm surrounding it. Why was he labeled as a sexist and harassed in the first place? Because he didn't add geographically incorrect people and non-hetero relationships? This was made into a controversy when it was a completely logical and normal thing to do when designing the game. Even now in mainstream circles you can't openly like KCD2 and praise it lest you be labeled with slurs that could be career destroying if went public.

This developer wasn't making any political statements or wanting to hurt any one when designing the first game; nor was he going to with the second one but he and the fans were dragged into the shitstorm regardless which is what I find disdainful.

 

[SHAKEZ]

Doesn't saying this defeats the purpose of adding it to the game?

 

[Denton]

You're correct, it is a women's day photo from their official social media.




I'm guessin Pandawan probably picked it from one of those twitter accounts spreading it around January or so this year.

What the fuck, this is the first time I see this photo and I know one of the girls there and didn't know she worked at Warhorse. That's hilarious.

 

[EDMIX]

I know that's what Vavra said, because of course he will. My issue isn't with the with the game but with the broader shitstorm surrounding it. Why was he labeled as a sexist and harassed in the first place? Because he didn't add geographically incorrect people and non-hetero relationships? This was made into a controversy when it was a completely logical and normal thing to do when designing the game. Even now in mainstream circles you can't openly like KCD2 and praise it lest you be labeled with slurs that could be career destroying if went public.

This developer wasn't making any political statements or wanting to hurt any one when designing the first game; nor was he going to with the second one but he and the fans were dragged into the shitstorm regardless which is what I find disdainful.

ok but....the first game still succeed and exist without any of this.

No company is going to get 100% praise in absolution, so if he changed this game to appease anyone based on trolls or something, he has himself to blame. So, I don't see the "force" here, he made that choice to add this in the game to seek some approval or try to get other people to like the game or something, but all that is a choice.

Doesn't saying this defeats the purpose of adding it to the game?

this, which is why I don't really get why it was added in the game in the first place. So I don't know if that is even the real reason this was added

 

[Zacfoldor]

The pandering is almost unacceptable but the game is good enough to let it slide.

If the game had been an 85/100 or lower it would have been a skip over this.

 

[pudel]

What the fuck, this is the first time I see this photo and I know one of the girls there and didn't know she worked at Warhorse. That's hilarious.

Ask her out and let us know whats going on there.

 

[adamsapple]

What the fuck, this is the first time I see this photo and I know one of the girls there and didn't know she worked at Warhorse. That's hilarious.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Just call them retarded and gay. We're in a new era now

 

[viveks86]

Now that the translation clarifies things, has the culture war foolishness run its course?

 

[DirtyBast8rd]

Ask her out and let us know whats going on there.

He'll probably get sued for sexual harassment and makes the headlines as: 'Neogaffer sexually assaults Warhorse employee.'

 

[Kilau]

Now that the translation clarifies things, has the culture war foolishness run its course?

With the success of AC: Shadows.

 

[EviLore]

I might get shit for this but I think that the Liara romance over the course of the 3 Mass Effect games was solid. And the one between Fei and Elly in Xenogears was surprisingly mature for a JRPG.

Yeah, the Mass Effect trilogy was generally well written. My main issue with the romances there was BioWare’s dating sim style of interaction where you needed to manipulate the other person by telling them exactly what they want to hear a dozen consecutive times to slowly build romance points.

Studios like CDPR thankfully moved away from that into more realistic interactions. Thought it was great how TW3 could show you the pitfalls of trying to juggle too many romantic interests.

 

[Fbh]

With the clarification provided in the thread I think people are making a big deal over nothing with this statement.
Though I still think the added gay stuff is weird and goes directly against what the studio established in the first game.

For anyone who has gone down that route in the game, is it at least handheld realistically? Is their relationship shown as something that needs to be kept hidden and isn't accepted by society at the time? Or is it like, say, AC Odyssey where Kassandra competed in the Olympics and everyone is just cool with it?

Yeah, BG3's biggest problem at release was every character propositioning you for sex at the smallest hint that you're being polite with them. Honestly ridiculous. Cyberpunk has some issues there too. It can get awkward when you know you're one dialogue option away from getting intimate with that cop guy at all times, on a mission where you hang out with him for hours and talk about your emotional baggage over drinks while looking at the moonlight. In order to maximize the roleplaying options things can get pretty far away from a natural situation.

I've always found this really annoying.
The first time I noticed it was in Dragon Age 2, where I just tried to be nice and supportive of my team, but suddenly half the dudes in my party wanted to sleep with me.
It's just awkward and I do think it changes the dynamic between the characters.

On the same topic, in RPGs with romance options I tend to prefer characters having defined sexual orientations instead of this "everyone is bisexual" approach. Like in Cyperpunk I know it wasn't a popular choice with everyone, but I actually liked that Panam is only into men and Judy is only into women,.

 

[Kilau]

Thought it was great how TW3 could show you the pitfalls of trying to juggle too many romantic interests.

I also like how Atlus does it.

 

[pudel]

Thought it was great how TW3 could show you the pitfalls of trying to juggle too many romantic interests.

It cost me around 40hrs of ingame time to go back and "avoid" the mistake. At first I was pissed...but than I thought it was just awesome executed.

 

[Sgt.Asher]

Is that why Henry holds the idiot ball when Musa of Mali is around?

 

[ByWatterson]

Okay so it wasn't organic at all. Glad he told us what we already knew.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

As everyone knew all along, it was shoehorned in. Dude compromised his morals because he's a chicken shit.

 

[Hudo]

Yeah, the Mass Effect trilogy was generally well written. My main issue with the romances there was BioWare’s dating sim style of interaction where you needed to manipulate the other person by telling them exactly what they want to hear a dozen consecutive times to slowly build romance points.

I agree. But I think that was an attempt by BioWare to have some sort of game/RPG-like mechanic associated with this, stemming from their Baldur's Gate II days. And while it was something revolutionary* back then, by Mass Effect, their attempt ended up making the romance stuff feel, well, mechanical, since it was easy to see what was happening.

*If you ask the Grognards at RPGCodex, they'd say that the popularization of romances through Baldur's Gate II ruined RPGs forever.

 

[viveks86]

Studios like CDPR thankfully moved away from that into more realistic interactions. Thought it was great how TW3 could show you the pitfalls of trying to juggle too many romantic interests.

It cost me around 40hrs of ingame time to go back and "avoid" the mistake. At first I was pissed...but than I thought it was just awesome executed.

Oh! I'm literally playing the game right now and was torn about the choice during "The Last Wish". Made a choice, but did not feel right about the conversation that followed. Reloaded and avoided any potential confusion in the future.

Spoiler

Trish for Life. Yen is insufferable

 

[pudel]

Spoiler

Trish for Life. Yen is insufferable

 

[ResilientBanana]

You will never win against the terminally offended.

 

[mayham2199]

Okay so it wasn't organic at all. Glad he told us what we already knew.

Except it was mistranslated so you were wrong again.

 

[ByWatterson]

Except it was mistranslated so you were wrong again.

Kinda? Shows he was thinking about it.

 

[mitch1971]

Manager 1 : How can we increase productivity and reduce HR complaints for 30 minutes in one fell swoop?

Manager 2 : Womans day photo op?

Manager 1 : Ladies, to the roof!!

 

[Pandawan]

Women day photo. Can't they? Are you really trying to sell the idea that all males left the studio? They shrunk as they ramped up their ambition? WTF is even this kind of post. Disingenuous.



Oh so its fucking nothing

But no drama in that. Where's my dopamine hit? And again a whole bunch of peoples caught with stupid posts by jumping to conclusions too fast. Reminds me of the double Wukong translation drama.

You didn't even read what I said! You are drawing the wrong conclusions, but blaming people for drawing the wrong conclusions!

I never said that all the men left the studio, I never said that this photo shows that only women are left. On the contrary! In my post I said that I think Warhorse has more men even today.

That is not the point of my post. You missed the point.

I was trying to show with this photo that Warhorse is committed to DEI! Not that all the men left the studio! NOT that there are more women there now. On the contrary, I directly said that I think men are still the majority there!

But hiring based on gender is bad! It hurts quality. And Warhorse has clearly started hiring more women!

If you think this photo is a bad example, there are more photos showing that women make up a much larger portion of Warhorse now. And I'm not saying hiring women is bad, I'm saying forcing people to hire women is bad and hurts games! Forced diversity is bad and harmed KCD2! If woman was the best choice for Warhorse to hire, that would be fine if they decided to do so. But they're doing it because of DEI policies.

I'm guessin Pandawan Pandawan probably picked it from one of those twitter accounts spreading it around January or so this year.

I got if rom google search, one of first photos i got. The point is not the photo, this photo is only intended to be a visual demonstration of what I said. People who understand what I mean can find more photos, where it will also be clear that Warhorse have become committed to DEI politics