Support NeoGAF

[sendit]

I'm just happy people are playing a great game. I don't get why people are so insecure about what Xbox users play and this weird flex to downplay positive performance on this game. I also dont understand how it changes the flex at all. People are playing this game on every platform it is on.

This entire thread started with number manipulation from Gamepass "engagement" metrics. We all know, Xbox console as a business is on life support. However, every week there is a post stating otherwise to keep the head a float.

 

[Topher]

I'm just happy people are playing a great game. I don't get why people are so insecure about what Xbox users play and this weird flex to downplay positive performance on this game. I also dont understand how it changes the flex at all. People are playing this game on every platform it is on.

The only thing being "downplayed" is this notion that "Xbox" is dominating here. It isn't. Makes complete sense to seperate the console from the service which puts the real "Xbox" in a different light entirely.

But why are you arguing so vehemently either way if you think this is all bullshit. Make up your mind man.

 

[MMaRsu]

I care about sales cause that's the only thing that will secure a sequel. People "experiencing" the game doesn't help create a sequel. If no one bought the game on Steam and PS and they only "experienced" it on GP then there's a real chance we see nothing else from them again.

Pretty sure Microsoft gives money in exchange for Gamepass

No need to care about sales unless you'te a shareholder

 

[adamsapple]

wait, wat? is Game Pass....actually, Demo Pass?

Based Game Pass allowing more people easy access to great games.

Pretty sure Microsoft gives money in exchange for Gamepass

No need to care about sales unless you'te a shareholder

Yeah, the publisher chose to take the GP deal.

They're happy, we're happy, everyone's happy.

 

[poppabk]

Yes? Have you seen the lump sums Microsoft gives? Good for small publishers who need money upfront, but for anything AA and above, it's fucking miserable. Traditional sales are far more profitable.

Have we? I went searching and other than that one indie cooking simulator that got $600k when it was 3 years old I think I saw nothing concrete.
Considering the billions that MS says it has paid out and just the plain economics of it - I have to imagine that some of the payouts are in the 10s of millions at least especially for day and date.
But I can't really find any info that says one way or another.

 

[Gaiff]

Have we? I went searching and other than that one indie cooking simulator that got $600k when it was 3 years old I think I saw nothing concrete.
Considering the billions that MS says it has paid out and just the plain economics of it - I have to imagine that some of the payouts are in the 10s of millions at least especially for day and date.
But I can't really find any info that says one way or another.

It was in the Activision Blizzard court case.

These are the sums Microsoft expected for their partners to ask to put their gameson Game Pass. If you're a small dev, a few millions might be worth it. Anything above that is a gamble and selling a lot of games is far more profitable.

 

[mckmas8808]

Xbox number one platform.

The usual suspects on Neogaf:

Are you paying attention to any of the data released in this thread?

 

[Topher]

Are you paying attention to any of the data released in this thread?

This is only "data" needed:

 

[mayham2199]

Pretty sure Microsoft gives money in exchange for Gamepass

No need to care about sales unless you'te a shareholder

Oh so does MS give out enough money to fully fund the creation of the game and for the company to make a profit? I doubt it.

 

[DragonNCM]

 

[DenchDeckard]

When did I say "Xbox players don't play good games"? I'm saying this changes nothing to the narrative regarding Xbox. If someone said they weren't playing good games last week, then this wouldn't make them any more right or wrong. You're talking to a guy who hates like half of Sony's offerings with a passion, so I'm sure as hell wouldn't be the one arguing about Xbox players being the one with no taste in games.

What matters and always mattered is selling consoles and selling games. No amount of engagement metrics, bullets fired, or miles driven in a warthog will change that.

My bad for generalising with you, man It's all love from this side.

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

Xbox dominating.... time to buy that 2T series X.

I got a feeling nextbox is due soon and series will just stream next gen games. Or msft really has a lot of games in the pipeline as that price is too high for obsolete hardware.

 

[mckmas8808]

Engagement data is especially warped when we are mixing engagement from sales and engagement from subscriptions. The two should not be combined, but publishers do that because they combined number makes it look better, obviously.

Here is an example. Engagement numbers count me equally on both PC Game Pass and PlayStation. The actual numbers though:

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS!!!!! Yet some on GAF just refuse to listen. A "player" on Gamepass is someone that hits the "PLAY" button and gets to the menu screen. THAT'S IT! Why we care about that number is beyond me. It means NOTHING!

 

[poppabk]

It was in the Activision Blizzard court case.

These are the sums Microsoft expected for their partners to ask to put their gameson Game Pass. If you're a small dev, a few millions might be worth it. Anything above that is a gamble and selling a lot of games is far more profitable.

That Baldurs Gate 3 entry is hilarious. But that shows that 10's even 100's of millions is possible. The question would be did the devs know what they had and did MS see the potential.
That document suggests that MS has an horrendous track record of seeing potential but hopefully Kepler and Sandfall saw their own potential.

 

[DAHGAMING]

We been playing them bitches on gamepass, we got it on our PC and our Xbox .

 

[Baemono]

Publishers wouldnt put their games on gamepass or xbox at all if there was 0 audience.

People put their games on Stadia, and there was almost 0 audience there

Baldur's Gate 3 was even supposed to be a Stadia exclusive

 

[Fbh]

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS!!!!! Yet some on GAF just refuse to listen. A "player" on Gamepass is someone that hits the "PLAY" button and gets to the menu screen. THAT'S IT! Why we care about that number is beyond me. It means NOTHING!

Yup.
Player numbers for subscription services are meaningless. It's the same with stuff like Netflix, I've put on stuff countless times only to realize it's not for me or I'm not in the mood after like 5 minutes and turning it off, but I still count as a viewer.

A more interesting metric would be something like achievement completion rate. I don't know if Xbox actually shows the completion percentages for achivements.
For example on Ps5 38,6% of players have finished Act 1 so far.

 

[mckmas8808]

That Baldurs Gate 3 entry is hilarious. But that shows that 10's even 100's of millions is possible. The question would be did the devs know what they had and did MS see the potential.
That document suggests that MS has an horrendous track record of seeing potential but hopefully Kepler and Sandfall saw their own potential.

It wouldn't surprise me if MS gave them around $5 Million. Which would have been a good boost for developing the game. With only 33 devs and 5 years of dev work, I'm assuming the game cost between $30M - $40M to make.

 

[DenchDeckard]

It wouldn't surprise me if MS gave them around $5 Million. Which would have been a good boost for developing the game. With only 33 devs and 5 years of dev work, I'm assuming the game cost between $30M - $40M to make.

100%

Looking at the image above I think 5 mill seems completely reasonable and like ypu said, that's a great boost for a team of this size.

MS just lucked out on this occasion that the game has landed like a megaton.

 

[Topher]

Doesn't mean he isn't going to makea silly statement. I really like him too and perhaps I went in a little hard. It's just frustrating to still see users comment that Xbox console players dont play good games. Like they are any different than any other platform. Xbox and Gamepass has more Japanese RPG support, turn based RPGs than they ever have.

Publishers wouldnt put their games on gamepass or xbox at all if there was 0 audience.

But yeah, if you feel like you need to defend a silly comment and go after me for calling it out. You do you brother!

Quote this "silly comment" you keep saying Gaiff made. Only thing I called you out for saying percentages without numbers are meaningless. Meanwhile you are using this thread to brag about Xbox. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Reaseru]

For those who have gamepass, PLAY Expedition 33.

This game takes to a journey you won't be sorry to embark.

I thought this game was another game about humanity survival... I couldn't be more wrong. It's about something completely different.

 

[MMaRsu]

Oh so does MS give out enough money to fully fund the creation of the game and for the company to make a profit? I doubt it.

Any income is better than no income but ok

 

[calico]

If the point of the data is a celebration of people getting to experience a great game or whatever then we ought to be including piracy in these splits too. But it actually isn't, so we shouldn't.

If it's really about $$$ (it is) then we can't just count 'players' on each system, because the players are not close to being comparable in terms of $.

 

[mckmas8808]

Any income is better than no income but ok

True and that's important. But, "players" and "buyers" shouldn't compared. Like at all. Because if the GP subs don't go up massively over the next 2 years, MS could abandon it.

 

[MMaRsu]

True and that's important. But, "players" and "buyers" shouldn't compared. Like at all. Because if the GP subs don't go up massively over the next 2 years, MS could abandon it.

But isnt that what the anti gamepass folks want?

 

[mckmas8808]

But isnt that what the anti gamepass folks want?

You're asking if the "anti-gamepass" folks want MS to abandon Gamepass?

 

[poppabk]

True and that's important. But, "players" and "buyers" shouldn't compared. Like at all. Because if the GP subs don't go up massively over the next 2 years, MS could abandon it.

Abandon it for what? Trying to sell Xbox consoles with exclusives again?
MS are all in on gamepass.

 

[mckmas8808]

Abandon it for what? Trying to sell Xbox consoles with exclusives again?
MS are all in on gamepass.

Cost to run it vs. the revenue they bring in. MS is on the clock. They have a few years to prove GamePass is worth it's weight.

 

[Baemono]

But isnt that what the anti gamepass folks want?

I think people want the Xbox brand to be relevant again, which is exaclty the opposite MS is doing for the last 10 years

 

[OctopusBox]

A brand new Unreal Engine 5 based visual overhaul for starters ..

Is that enough to get huge numbers of people to double dip on Steam if there are mods that boost the visuals anyway? I'm just saying I'm not as surprised as the poster I quoted that Steam was only 34% because the PC version has mods that do most if not all of what the remaster does.

 

[adamsapple]

Is that enough to get huge numbers of people to double dip on Steam if there are mods that boost the visuals anyway? I'm just saying I'm not as surprised as the poster I quoted that Steam was only 34% because the PC version has mods that do most if not all of what the remaster does.

34% for game that's readily available on game pass for PC and console isn't a number to scoff at. If the game's total concurrent number of players was an indication, it has sold pretty well on Steam.

And, to the first point. There might be visual overhaul mods but I doubt any of them would even come close to a full visual remake on a modern engine with things like RT, Nanite etc.

 

[poppabk]

Cost to run it vs. the revenue they bring in. MS is on the clock. They have a few years to prove GamePass is worth it's weight.

I'm fairly confident they are sitting pretty right now in that regard. They are on the clock because their 30 odd million subscribers are mainly on Xbox hardware but wont stay there without new hardware, and the one thing that will kill any gaming profit is having to subsidize a new hardware release and the one thing that will kill gamepass is losing subscribers wholesale.

 

[OctopusBox]

34% for game that's readily available on game pass for PC and console isn't a number to scoff at. If the game's total concurrent number of players was an indication, it has sold pretty well on Steam.

And, to the first point. There might be visual overhaul mods but I doubt any of them would even come close to a full visual remake on a modern engine with things like RT, Nanite etc.

I'm not scoffing, again, I'm just not surprised that the PC split is not higher, as opposed to the post I originally quoted. On console, you have to pull out a 2 generation old system to play it, while on PC it's been readily available to buy and play for 19 years.

 

[mayham2199]

Any income is better than no income but ok

Obviously but that goes right back to my point. If all they got for the game was 10 million to be on GP (and that's being generous) and it cost them 40 million and it bombed on every other platform well then the company doesn't make money and there is no sequel. Hence why I care about the sales of a game without being a share holder. I want the games I enjoy to be profitable so that they will continue to be made.

 

[Little Chicken]

Congrats lil chickety. You just described the thread title and OP data.

 

[Mattyp]

OK buddy sure.

Sure what? There's been tones of games I would never ever buy but install to try something new and never end up playing again.

 

[Astray]

Sure what? There's been tones of games I would never ever buy but install to try something new and never end up playing again.

So basically you played a game you never would have bought without actually paying the devs.

How does that benefit them in any way rofl?

 

[Mattyp]

So basically you played a game you never would have bought without actually paying the devs.

How does that benefit them in any way rofl?

The devs didn't get paid….? Big brain logic right there

 

[adamsapple]

So basically you played a game you never would have bought without actually paying the devs.

How does that benefit them in any way rofl?

The games don't go on game pass without the dev and/or publisher getting paid. Xbox doesn't strongarm or torrent the games on the service.

 

[FoxMcChief]

 

[DragonNCM]

So basically you played a game you never would have bought without actually paying the devs.

How does that benefit them in any way rofl?

It is called "take money in advance from cashcow called MS Gamepass"

 

[Three]

Who cares?

If consumers play the game, isnt that whats ultimately important?

For the consumers?

I love how we are all shareholders here and only care about actual sales, not if people can actually experience a product.

Who actually cares about number of players though? Why would that be important to consumers and sales not?
Especially if it's just hit download and play for a minute statistics and not an investment into the game/ecosystem. One doesn't guarantee support for your system and encourages engagement based monetisation.

 

[Conflict NZ]

That Baldurs Gate 3 entry is hilarious. But that shows that 10's even 100's of millions is possible. The question would be did the devs know what they had and did MS see the potential.
That document suggests that MS has an horrendous track record of seeing potential but hopefully Kepler and Sandfall saw their own potential.

That document was made when Baldur's Gate 3 was a Stadia Exclusive and the "Second Run" comment is in regards to it being a delayed launch, not an indication of quality.

 

[Mortisfacio]

Love how PC gamers became Xbox and PlayStation numbers. Whether it's PC GamePass or Sony forcing a PSN account.

 

[laynelane]

Love how PC gamers became Xbox and PlayStation numbers. Whether it's PC GamePass or Sony forcing a PSN account.

Has Sony done that too? Just curious because I hadn't heard anything about it. It wouldn't surprise me, though, since 'number goes up' seems to be such a big priority to many gaming companies - and especially their shareholders.

 

[Astray]

The devs didn't get paid….? Big brain logic right there

The games don't go on game pass without the dev and/or publisher getting paid. Xbox doesn't strongarm or torrent the games on the service.

It is called "take money in advance from cashcow called MS Gamepass"

After they get the money, what difference does it make for the dev if 1m players tried it on the service or just one player? That's my actual point here. These numbers are completely meaningless for the dev (and thus they are correct not boasting about them).

Most of these guys are dipping out of the game super quick, and they got there via a subscription service, so you're not even making potential consumers for your next game in there either.

Maybe if they're angling for another GP deal for their next project? But who knows if GP will still have 3P day 1 games in 4 years or however time it takes to bring a new game to market? The service is changing over time.

 

[RickMasters]

You know errr….. little chicken….. it's not your flying that's the problem….. it's you. You don't see the rest of the squad when you're up there…… your….. errr… dangerous.

Sorry I couldn't help it.

 

[RickMasters]

Yes!



Because GP isn't for most people. It's more money than they'd like to spend, given how many games they play per year.

Depends how many games you play. GPU for 12 months is cheaper than two full priced AAA at 2025 prices. I already played a tonne of Stuff on GPU this year. Right now I'm playing hollow knight, oblivion and avowed. Along side COD with costs 80 bucks these days, and that's before I get to my sports games on EA play.


That's already Atleast 500 bucks worth of games. I pay roughly 180 bucks per year for full price GPU and play way more games on it than what the service cost per year.



I'd even go as far as saying the more the industry inches closer to 100 games ( GTA 6 pricing is gonna be fun around here when they announce it for Atleast 100 bucks) the more appealing GPU will become to cost consious working class peeps. People ain't even going night clubs or cinemas again like they used to because of money (lack thereof) $80+ games will not be a top priory for parent or the average Joe with an average salary and bills to pay.



Netflix ain't going nowhere….. apple and Spotify ain't going nowhere…… why do people still not see that subs will inevitably become a norm for the average consumer, just as Digital downloads have pretty much killed of the idea of buying physical games for most gamers.


Times change and people are just reluctant to see where things are going. Evacuee they want things to be like they have Always been. But things change. I prefer car with a manual gear box, rear wheel drive and Atleast 300 BHP…… but the world wants electric cars…. Why because big companies go where the audience and the money is. Even if a vocal minority of enthusiast don't want it to be so. That's one thing I'll say gamers over 35 have with car enthusiasts. W really are too old to "get" the spending habits of gen Z and younger. And most of us really can't see where the biz is going, because some are too busy clinging on to the idea that 40 buck games and short devs cycles on AAA game are are coming back anytime soon. That's all over with. Games cost more to make and they take longer. Worse still a lot of these AAA games are ASS.

 

[DragonNCM]

After they get the money, what difference does it make for the dev if 1m players tried it on the service or just one player? That's my actual point here. These numbers are completely meaningless for the dev (and thus they are correct not boasting about them).

Most of these guys are dipping out of the game super quick, and they got there via a subscription service, so you're not even making potential consumers for your next game in there either.

Maybe if they're angling for another GP deal for their next project? But who knows if GP will still have 3P day 1 games in 4 years or however time it takes to bring a new game to market? The service is changing over time.

For most of the indy, small & AA developers that day one gamepass monetization provide it is good deal. They can make their games without pressure of failing or financial problems with their games.
Some of this developers are very small teams what just started developing and don't need millions of $ to operate and they are not greedy for instant monetization.
Gamepass model is meant for this developers...not AAA heavy hitters. MS just totally missplayed with big hitters.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

I didn't want to have to watch the launch screen every time I picked it back up, so I went Xbox.

I'm going to keep my Xbox for the back catalogue and use it as an emulator as game prices go up.