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[Topher]

'If the big companies dictate what games can be created, I don't think that will advance the industry.'

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Former PlayStation boss and indie advocate Shuhei Yoshida believes the rise and potential dominance of subscription services like Xbox Game Pass could become "dangerous" for developers eager to push the envelope.

Speaking to Game Developer at Gamescom LATAM, the industry veteran explained subscription services are "great" if you're allowed inside the walled garden. The concern, he suggests, is that as they inevitably expand on a bedrock of first-party titles it will become harder for third-party studios and indies to cross that divide.

"If the only way for people to play games is through subscriptions that's really dangerous, because what [type] of games can be created will be dictated by the owner of the subscription services," he says.

"That's really, really risky because there always must always be fresh new ideas tried by small developers that create the next wave of development. But if the big companies dictate what games can be created, I don't think that will advance the industry."

Yoshida believes Sony delivered a "healthier" subscription model

Discussing Xbox Game Pass and how Microsoft has evolved the platform by adding more first-party titles while also regaining on its initial pledge to bring every single Xbox Game Studio project to the service on day one, Yoshida said the company might have bitten off more than it could chew.

While acknowledging his own bias as a former PlayStation exec, Yoshida suggested Sony's take on the subscription model through PlayStation Plus—which has seen the company make major first-party titles available to subscribers, but only after a traditional premium release—was perhaps "healthier."

"I believe the way Sony approached [subscriptions] is healthier. You know, not to overpromise and to allow people to spend money to buy the new games," he added. "After a couple of years there won't be many people willing to buy those games at that initial price, so they'll be added to the subscription service and there'll be more people to try [those products] in time for the next game in the franchise to come out."

Although he feels Microsoft might have made an initial misstep with that 'day one' pledge, Yoshida said the company has excelled in other areas. He described Microsoft's approach to backwards compatibility—which saw the company make it possible for Xbox Series X | S owners to play thousands of original Xbox, Xbox 360, and Xbox One titles—as "smart and very well planned."

"They must have put a lot of engineering effort in to achieve what they have done," he continued.

Microsoft wasn't the only company to receive plaudits during our chat. Yoshida also took time to praise Nintendo for slapping two controllers on the Switch and Switch 2 to enable multiplayer functionality straight out of the box. "[That's] so smart," he said. "It's in their DNA to cater to the needs of family and friends."

You can hear more from Yoshida, such as how he believes "stupid money" crippled the industry during the COVID-19 pandemic, by clicking here.

Shuhei Yoshida warns subscription services could become 'dangerous' for developers

'If the big companies dictate what games can be created, I don't think that will advance the industry.'

www.gamedeveloper.com

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[Punished Miku]

"$80 video games are a steal."
- Shuhei Yoshida, 1 week ago

I'm cool with the dangerous situation of playing non-stop cool shit for cheap on Gamepass, thanks.

Just to explain what he means in the above, $80 video games are literally so cheap he thinks you're stealing. He wants to go much higher than that.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Mr. Shu's words should be set in stone and studied at schools.

 

[Fake]

$80 imo is a far more danger. The sky is the limit.

 

[GHG]

No shit.

Spoken about this before but you're effectively paying to rent a batch of games curated by somebody else.

$80 imo is a far more danger. The sky is the limit.

Well good thing Microsoft are full steam ahead with both then.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

 

[Connificent]

Grand opening and closing

 

[Punished Miku]

No shit.

Spoken about this before but you're effectively paying to rent a batch of games curated by somebody else.



Well good thing Microsoft are full steam ahead with both then.

One of our last hopes is that we can actually have high quality curation help uninformed consumers. The alternative is the no-visibility indie wasteland, or trusting idiot consumers to pick new things which very rarely happens. Literally nothing wrong at all with great curation. It doesn't stop anyone from buying things not on a sub if they want.

 

[ReasonBeing]

On the contrary, sustained revenue can lower the risks involved with investments in experimental mechanics or genre's. GamePass and other subscription based platforms need to cast the widest net possible. It's all about adding to the platforms value proposition.

Now I do see his point regarding the fact that the platform holder is a gatekeeper, and that means these are not open platforms. Diversification of offerings will help alleviate this somewhat, but it is something to keep an eye on.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Of course he'll say that. He worked at Sony.

Where's his post mortem analysis of console sub plans when Sony launched their's 10 years ago where you could rent Saints Row for 30 days for more money than someone can bargain bin a disc copy from Amazon?

If MS wants to dump first party games day one, thats great value for GP subbers. Not everyone like sub plans, so it's just an option. People are free to just buy it too for $70.

 

[Shaki12345]

Gamers are dictating what developers should make.

Publishers are finding that out left and right.

 

[GHG]

One of our last hopes is that we can actually have high quality curation help uninformed consumers. The alternative is the no-visibility indie wasteland, or trusting idiot consumers to pick new things which very rarely happens. Literally nothing wrong at all with great curation. It doesn't stop anyone from buying things not on a sub if they want.

Yes, thinking of and referring to your customers (and potential customers) as idiots always works so well.

 

[jm89]

Of course he'll say that. He worked at Sony.

Take-Two CEO Strauss Zelnick says that although Call of Duty might boost Game Pass 'for a period of time', Take-Two still won't put its new games into the service because it makes rational decisions.

Those guys don't work at Sony.

 

[SHAKEZ]

'If the big companies dictate what games can be created

Oh no, just the thing that have been happening for years already. That's why indies have been rising.

 

[Punished Miku]

Yes, thinking of and referring to your customers (and potential customers) as idiots always works so well.

They're not my customers. Most casual consumers really only buy a few big games a year and barely hear about most great games. Curation helps improve visibility, helps casuals try new things and new genres, and broadens the amount of games that people play outside of just Fortnite and Call of Duty. Summer of Arcade is curation. GP is curation, which just picked in advance and helped promote Clair Obscur.

If you don't like it, you don't have to use it at all. It's a huge visibility boost for many games though.

 

[Kacho]

big companies dictate what games can be created

Aren't companies already doing this? EA just punted Black Panther.

 

[corgiix3]

Well considering gamepass has done nothing but go up in price over time since its inception i tend to agree. Just gona get worse and worse.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

It can be dangerous - if games made by a committee.

It can be a good thing - if devs have freedom to make what they want.

As long as Phil is incharge of Xbox, am confident devs will have creative freedom to make what they want.

So it has my conditional support.

Curious Shu has no opinion on made-by-committee games released by Playstation under him.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Xbox community:

 

[Black_Stride]

His beef with Gamepass vs PS+ is that Microsoft puts its first party AAA games on Gamepass while Sony doesnt?


Doesnt that actually make the subscription less valuable if it doesnt get the hits early?
From a consumer perspective getting the games early sounds like a better deal, but from a business I can see why Sony doesnt launch its AAAs on PS+ early so people are forced to buy if they want to play.


P.S
Doesnt Microsoft already do this with their tiers?
GamePass Core has few games and basically no AAA games Day One.
GamePass Standard has a plethora of games not all AAA games Day One.
Gamepass Ultimate all games of Standard plus Day One AAA games.

 

[Black_Stride]

Xbox community:

Why would Xbox community be upset when what hes saying is for the consumer Gamepass is a better deal than PS+?

 

[SHAKEZ]

Aren't companies already doing this? EA just punted Black Panther.

Sony itself just dictated a bunch of GaaS and cancelled most of them.

 

[Shodai]

A and AA releases will be a far larger share of sales in the next 5 years. Big publishers are the ones who should be concerned.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Those guys don't work at Sony.

How is it value destructive? For the company or the gamer? Seems like good value to me as a gamer.

If he's thinking it's bad for the company books, thats fine. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. MS accountants can figure that part out.

If Kotick doesn't like MS's sub plan strategy, then he shouldnt had supported selling Activision to MS.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Why would Xbox community be upset when what hes saying is for the consumer Gamepass is a better deal than PS+?

Yoshida:

That's really, really risky because there always must always be fresh new ideas tried by small developers that create the next wave of development.

I don't think that will advance the industry."

Although he feels Microsoft might have made an initial misstep with that 'day one' pledge

Black stride:
" GP is the best value in gaming"

i agree, it's such value than doesn't make any business sense.

 

[Kacho]

Sony itself just dictated a bunch of GaaS and cancelled most of them.

Yep. I'm no Game Pass fan but Shu is off the mark on this one.

 

[Crayon]

Well sony did manage to do it without devastating their own ecosystem. So there's that.

 

[Black_Stride]

Black stride:
" GP is the best value in gaming"

i agree, it's such value than doesn't make any business sense.

Something that makes business sense can be completely contrary to whats more valuable to the customer.

Just ask phone users who forgot they used to come with earphones and/or that they never needed to buy more expensive Bluetooth devices....from a business standpoint making wireless buds a necessity is great.....the phone makers created a problem that they then solved themselves while pocketing the money.


Getting AAA games Day One isnt good business sense cuz now gamers might not buy those games.
But said consumers are happy because they get those AAA games day one.
So why would the Xbox Community who are the consumer in this case be upset?

 

[saintjules]

Shu still being relevant apparently. I thought this guy retired?

 

[Nydius]

I'm cool with the dangerous situation of playing non-stop cool shit for cheap on Gamepass, thanks.

Just keep in mind the old adage of "you get what you pay for".

Game Pass is having a helluva run right now, but it wasn't that long ago that the Game Pass releases were lackluster at best and people were complaining about a severe lack of quality first party games. Wasn't that long ago that people were denigrating Game Pass by calling it "Indie Pass".

Eventually this current run will turn into a drought, again.

 

[Punished Miku]

Just keep in mind the old adage of "you get what you pay for".

Game Pass is having a helluva run right now, but it wasn't that long ago that the Game Pass releases were lackluster at best and people were complaining about a severe lack of quality first party games. Wasn't that long ago that people were denigrating Game Pass by calling it "Indie Pass".

Eventually this current run will turn into a drought, again.

I like indies. I didn't sign up for GP for AAA games. It's more of an ocassional bonus. The service mostly is AA games and indies.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

So why would the Xbox Community who are the consumer in this case be upset?

easy, everyone is saying this:

1. Game Pass is for poor people
2. Game Pass has a negative effect in the quality of games
3.Game Pass Killed games sales.
4. Game Pass is not the future or the panacea of game development/industry problems.
etcetera.

so, what are we talking about here?

A brand problem. No one likes to support or be part of the "looser" team. No one likes to be associated with a garbage brand.

this is one the reasons the "Xbox Tax" talking point came about: The Xbox community feels attacked, insecure and upset by the fact that people keep shitting on xbox. It's not enough that Game Pass is the best value in gaming they want validation and affirmation.

 

[Mr Hyde]

I generally try to steer clear of subscription services. It's not the way I want to engage with my entertainment. They create a sort of innate stress that I have to play and watch as much as I can to get value from the monthly sub fee. Only service I sub to from time to time is PC game pass because MS are putting their big games there day 1 and it's far cheaper than the 80 dollar asking price. However their app is terrible so it kinda ruins the experience. It's just easier and better to pay for the games on Steam where everything just works.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Yep. I'm no Game Pass fan but Shu is off the mark on this one.

I personally don't mind Game Pass, but I'm by no means a stan either. Hell, I'm not a stan for any platform or what they do, lol. But yeah, as cool as Shu has been in the past, I've been questioning his more recent comments.

 

[BlackTron]

Remember when Netflix was the best idea ever, then they slowly jacked up the price as it descended into a shithole of just-good-enough-content? And then there were 8 of them?

Lets do it for video games

 

[Punished Miku]

Remember when Netflix was the best idea ever, then they slowly jacked up the price as it descended into a shithole of just-good-enough-content? And then there were 8 of them?

Lets do it for video games

The truth is that Netflix is still worth it when compared to cable or buying movies. I turn it off some months, but if you want something to watch without breaking the bank, it's still an improvement. Probably like 1/4th the cost of cable and no commercials. The price hikes are unfortunate, but I think they were just transitioning from a growth phase to something closer to their worth. It's still not overpriced compared to other options. I'm in the cheap midwest and I think cable TV is still $80 at least, or higher.

 

[Astray]

Lol lots of malding on Twitter over this.

 

[Killer8]

I think there are more examples of the situation being the opposite of what he worries will happen.

"First-party" games already inside the walled garden will be held to a higher standard. Being first party, Microsoft will have far more creative control over those games, potential affecting them negatively. Especially so once Microsoft have enough metrics to work off ie. they'll justify being able to push for certain changes to be made because "if X is in the game, player counts go up". There is also the risk of Microsoft using negative metrics as justification to close those studios, which they would have the power to do.

Third-parties and particularly indie developers should not be relying on getting into the walled garden in order to finish their game. It shouldn't be the case where third-party developers are thinking "if we don't get this Microsoft hand-out then the game just isn't going to happen", and then subsequently changing their game in some way to secure that.

The game should already be mostly funded via their publisher/crowdfunding/their own coffers/whatever, and any money they get from Microsoft should be a cherry on top. When I read developers saying that they couldn't have made XYZ game without some sort of funding to be on a sub service, that's the dangerous precedent I guess Shu is talking about. But to me that is far more an issue with funding within the industry than with subscription services.

 

[ToadMan]

Well good thing Microsoft are full steam ahead with both then.

MS has the most incentive to push individual retail prices up - that's the cover under which the gamepass subscription can be justified.

 

[Danny22]

Just keep in mind the old adage of "you get what you pay for".

Game Pass is having a helluva run right now, but it wasn't that long ago that the Game Pass releases were lackluster at best and people were complaining about a severe lack of quality first party games. Wasn't that long ago that people were denigrating Game Pass by calling it "Indie Pass".

Eventually this current run will turn into a drought, again.

Exactly, and that's why these pro consumer decisions are terrible in the long term. I see many people asking for a reduction in base price, or for games to remain 60 dollars forever, and I would argue they're the primary reason for microtransactions in single player.
Hopefully, development costs become so cheap someday that none of these things matter anymore.

 

[Soren01]

Perhaps it's time to let this retiree rest

 

[BlackTron]

The truth is that Netflix is still worth it when compared to cable or buying movies. I turn it off some months, but if you want something to watch without breaking the bank, it's still an improvement. Probably like 1/4th the cost of cable and no commercials. The price hikes are unfortunate, but I think they were just transitioning from a growth phase to something closer to their worth. It's still not overpriced compared to other options. I'm in the cheap midwest and I think cable TV is still $80 at least, or higher.

Right, at the cost of the average quality of those productions. That is the "danger".

There is no way to know for sure whether Doom TDA would have been the same game had there never been an acquisition. But there is conjecture that under the infinite wisdom of Phil Spencer it became Hexen: look I can use a popular IP adaptation version bc I'm smart game CEO. What happens now that they sabotaged the game by jacking the price and releasing it on Gamepass at the same time? Internally call it a meh because they don't even have realistic internal metrics, fragment the development team and move on to the next IP to sacrifice at the altar of Gamepass?

"I have to run a business"

 

[Punished Miku]

Right, at the cost of the average quality of those productions. That is the "danger".

There is no way to know for sure whether Doom TDA would have been the same game had there never been an acquisition. But there is conjecture that under the infinite wisdom of Phil Spencer it became Hexen: look I can use a popular IP adaptation version bc I'm smart game CEO. What happens now that they sabotaged the game by jacking the price and releasing it on Gamepass at the same time? Internally call it a meh because they don't even have realistic internal metrics, fragment the development team and move on to the next IP to sacrifice at the altar of Gamepass?

"I have to run a business"

I think their games are better than ever. There's zero evidence Doom is somehow a worse game because of GP. Complete fantasy tales from your ass bullshit barely even deserving of a response. Compare it to Concord, which launched at retail only. Some of you guys are honestly ideologically possessed. Only thing we've really seen is teams forced to make GAAS games bombing, and you did see that struggle with Redfall, started prior to MS even being a factor. MS paid to help them undo as much of it as they could with extra development time removing microtransactions and adding an offline mode so it can be preserved. Most GAAS games have nothing to do with Gamepass, and Sony jumped in that deep end with both feet and has tanked team after team, all games planned for retail and no subscription.

I'm about to start Doom this weekend, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it is. Seems pretty cool to me.

 

[Roberts]

I keep hearing this shit since the day GP premiered and been waiting for it to ruin the gaming ever since. Here's to another 7 years of doomsaying!

 

[adamsapple]

I keep hearing this shit since the day GP premiered and been waiting for it to ruin the gaming ever since. Here's to another 7 years of doomsaying!

Enjoying watching GP destroy gaming for years, hope to see it happen for years more to come.

 

[BlackTron]

I think their games are better than ever. There's zero evidence Doom is somehow a worse game because of GP. Complete fantasy tales from your ass bullshit barely even deserving of a response. Compare it to Concord, which launched at retail only. Some of you guys are honestly ideologically possessed. Only thing we've really seen is teams forced to make GAAS games bombing, and you did see that struggle with Redfall, started prior to MS even being a factor. MS paid to help them undo as much of it as they could with extra development time removing microtransactions and adding an offline mode so it can be preserved. Most GAAS games have nothing to do with Gamepass, and Sony jumped in that deep end with both feet and has tanked team after team, all games planned for retail and no subscription.

I'm about to start Doom this weekend, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it is. Seems pretty cool to me.

I said that there is no way to know one way or another anyway, so don't lose it.

But I also said, aside from that, what happens when MS is nonplussed by the performance of the game?

Of course, we didn't expect it to sell that well being $80 and on Gamepass. But I'm not even sure MS had an expectation one way or another. Like they have a reactionary response to everything, and they don't know what the response is to a likely scenario until after it's happened.

I'm worried about the future of the Doom franchise already. Bracing for dressed-up, spun news in the months ahead.

 

[mayham2199]

I keep hearing this shit since the day GP premiered and been waiting for it to ruin the gaming ever since. Here's to another 7 years of doomsaying!

I do think sub services could hurt gaming but fortunately we've discovered it doesn't really work in this industry because of the way gaming media is consumed. With TV and music you can put them on and still do things you need to do around your house. Not to mention both TV and music have much bigger audiences. With games you have to be locked in to just that game and most people don't want to do that and if they do it's rare and then it becomes something you'd rather just pay one price for and not continuously paying for it.

It's a great deal for most hardcore gamers but even then some don't want it. I thought it was great at first but I actually can't really stand it and I'd rather just buy my games. I'm fortunate enough though to where the money I spend on gaming is nothing really. I easily spend under $1000 a year on gaming.

 

[Punished Miku]

I said that there is no way to know one way or another anyway, so don't lose it.

But I also said, aside from that, what happens when MS is nonplussed by the performance of the game?

Of course, we didn't expect it to sell that well being $80 and on Gamepass. But I'm not even sure MS had an expectation one way or another. Like they have a reactionary response to everything, and they don't know what the response is to a likely scenario until after it's happened.

I'm worried about the future of the Doom franchise already. Bracing for dressed-up, spun news in the months ahead.

My advice is just wait for sales numbers to trickle in if you care about it. They're giving people every possible option to play the game. PS, Xbox, PC, or GP. Play it however you want. If people don't show up to play it, that's just how it is sometimes. Lots of stuff I've enjoyed in the past has bombed. Up to them to regroup and figure out what they want to do. I'll just play the stuff I think looks good.

I honestly don't understand why you'd even bring up decreasing quality because of GP strictly as a hypothetical with zero evidence. The game is clearly not lower budget than the previous games. It has an 85 MC. It looks like the 2016 one is 79 and Eternal is 88. Most people that have played it on here are saying it's a good game. It's a single player game with no tacked on modes or GAAS stuff. I don't even understand what you're hypothetically pointing to.

 

[Zacfoldor]

The problem with gamepass is one day if gamepass actually takes over. Then they can and likely will dictate what games that are available on gamepass can have in them and what they cannot. Games won't skip gamepass they will just edit themselves to meet the woke agenda. When everything is in gamepass, wokesters no longer need to boycott the industry, they can just throw a stray tweet in MS's direction and they will cave within minutes.

If you don't understand why this is dangerous then you haven't been paying attention.

You'll own nothing and you'll be happy, but I won't be happy because I won't partake in public transportation pass.

Sometimes you have to stand up and tell people no. Even if you suffer in the short term, you will gain everything my friend. When you can do this, the world is yours.

If Concord had launched on gamepass it would still be going and they would be rubbing it in the chud's faces. They would probably be pretending like it was some grand success(look at how they gaslight about other gamepass games that we know flopped). Thank goodness for Sony and their need for actual results.

 

[BlackTron]

My advice is just wait for sales numbers to trickle in if you care about it. They're giving people every possible option to play the game. PS, Xbox, PC, or GP. Play it however you want. If people don't show up to play it, that's just how it is sometimes. Lots of stuff I've enjoyed in the past has bombed. Up to them to regroup and figure out what they want to do. I'll just play the stuff I think looks good.

I honestly don't understand why you'd even bring up decreasing quality because of GP strictly as a hypothetical with zero evidence. The game is clearly not lower budget than the previous games. It has an 85 MC. It looks like the 2016 one is 79 and Eternal is 88. Most people that have played it on here are saying it's a good game. It's a single player game with no tacked on modes or GAAS stuff. I don't even understand what you're hypothetically pointing to.

Just read my post in plain English to understand my concern...there are no lines to read between.

To try and help you, Hi-Fi Rush was released to great fanfare, and then the studio was kicked to the curb. Even if we would think it did great by Xbox metrics, turns out they are contradictory to themselves, at the peril of game developers under their umbrella.

When people talk about a "danger" in the industry, it doesn't stop at what you are doing in your room by yourself. We're talking about dynamics that affect the way the industry is moving. If I'm worried that Nintendo will fail within a few years of going third party, that's not "oh well, I'll just play the cool games I'm given and let them sort it out later". I'm allowed to opine "I hope they don't do that because then the stream of good ass N games as I know them will stop eventually, which is bad for me".