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[Guardian Monkey]

It's a creativity problem. That applies to cinema too. So many great specialists won't get you anything if the thinking heads are running out of ideas and the few ones they come up with are fucking terrible. In this era, California is the worst place to settle, because the brain rot is contagious, these people hang out with one another and get infected.

Having the gaming and cinema divisions so much intertwined is also a mistake. A big one. It limits the creative potential of making genuine videogames without a cinematic tie-in.

 

[mitch1971]

see you on PS6. Whole gen wasted

Sony : We believe in generations*


*just not this one.

 

[Sanepar]

What is Dark Outlaw?

 

[yurinka]

What is Dark Outlaw?

WTF is Dark Outlaw? Sonys dark passenger?

Dark Outlaw is a new studio from LA leaded by the ex-Deviation and ex-CoD Zombies head plus many other ex-several top tier shooters and/or ex-top tier GaaS of other types (many of them coming from Deviation and CoD too).

what was wrong with it in the leaks?

Nothing, it's just people who thinks games in pre-alpha stage look as good, are as complete and are as polished as released games.

They learned what exactly? Initiative is up and continue running - no change from before.

MLB, GT7, Helldivers 2 and Destiny 2 must have provided enough money to pay the budget of all the games of the dozen IPs with GaaS, including the couple ones that failed after launch, the cancelled ones and the non-greenlighted ones. And this is having half a dozen to be released, some of them like Marathon or Marvel Tokon with huge potential.

So already is very successful and wouldn't make sense to change it. Regarding lessons learnt, every time a game company releases, cancels or shut downs a game, they make a deep and extensive post mortem analysis and it is shared (at least a short recap) with the other teams within the company. For that postmortem they analyze all the key metrics, processes and performance not only of the game itself, but in all areas or departments of the project.

Normally the biggest lessons to learn stuff and improve comes from the things that didn't work (even in successful games) because it means something they assumed was wrong. So they investigate what failed and how to improve it. Regarding the things that did work (even in failed games) normally don't help a lot to them to learn and improve because it just validates that their way of doing these things works, sometimes that normally they already knew it.

As an example, even if Helldivers 2 has been a huge success there were things that failed, and took note to improve either there or in other projects. And there were things that worked very well, so other games can apply. Same goes with Concord, there were things that worked and other ones that didn't so they learnt from that too to improve other projects.

These lessons may lead to improvements or even huge changes in other projects that were having the same mistakes, or in some rare case a cancellation when combined with other factors. But well, it's pretty stupid to assume that because an arena hero shooter failed they're going to cancel over a half a dozen other games including stuff as different as a fighting game or a mixture of MOBA, smash bros like, platformer, life simes and whatever frog type games is.

 

[Sanepar]

Dark Outlaw is a new studio from LA leaded by ex-Deviation and ex-CoD Zombies plus ex-several top tier shooters and/or ex-top tier GaaS of other types.


Nothing, it's just people who thinks games in pre-alpha stage look as good, are as complete and are as polished as released games.

So they are making a gaas and probably will be closed in 3-4 years like deviation.

 

[Clear]

The pipeline is all fucked up

Seems entirely functional to me. I think you are severely underestimating the length of dev-cycles and the lingering impact of the pandemic.

Its tempting to think that we're past the effects of the latter, but I'd just point out that when 5-6 years between releases is standard, we're still in a time where almost every major title will have been in some stage of development during those years.

 

[yurinka]

So they are making a gaas and probably will be closed in 3-4 years like deviation.

There's absolutely nothing that leads to think they're going to be shut down.

In fact, they aren't in the 'GaaS focused' group of SIE first party teams. They're in the group of studios who make both SP non-GaaS titles and MP GaaS titles, or games focused both in SP and MP GaaS. Meaning, their first game maybe isn't GaaS.

They barely can push games out of their studios this gen... adding MP would make it even worse

The pipeline is all fucked up

Not true. Ignoring ports, remasters and remakes they released new 7 games last year and have 6 new games announced for this year.

In 4 or the 5 last years they broke first party sales records with new titles, and also released the games that won more GOTY awards of the years 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2024.

Every generation AAA games take longer to be made because they are bigger, more complex and detailed, that's all.

 

[Killer8]

7 studios making single player games, that many should easily be able to get at least one out per year, likely even two. Development times are longer now, but not quite 7 years long. Some of these studios also have multiple teams. The multi-genre studios are probably making games with both a single and multiplayer component as well.

Add in the partnerships with third parties and XDEV co-developing and there should be ample games coming out. I think focusing too much on live service just temporarily fucked their plans.

 

[yurinka]

7 studios making single player games, that many should easily be able to get at least one out per year, likely even two. Development times are longer now, but not quite 7 years long. Some of these studios also have multiple teams. The multi-genre studios are probably making games with both a single and multiplayer component as well.

Add in the partnerships with third parties and XDEV co-developing and there should be ample games coming out. I think focusing too much on live service just temporarily fucked their plans.

Live service games didn't negatively affect their SP output, they're investing more in SP than before and their GaaS initiative has a separate budget of an investment made on top.

AAA development times in games released in the last couple of years or so range normally from 5 to 9 years, in some extreme cases ranging from 4 to 11. To compensate it, since several years ago SIE works in more games at the same time than ever before, over two dozen games at the same time plus supporting previously released games.

Sony first party plans and output is perfectly ok, not counting ports/remasters/remakes, they released new 7 games last year and have announced new 6 games for this year (plus ports, etc).

They broke first party sales records with new games released in 4 of the 5 last years, and also released the game that received the biggest amount of GOTY awards in 4 different recent years, plus many other games that also got many awards or nominations.

Regarding their revenue, thanks to their expansion to GaaS and multiplatform approach apparently aprox. almost doubled the yearly revenue first party games make versus around half a decade ago.

 

[Killer8]

Live service games didn't negatively affect their SP output, they're investing more in SP than before and their GaaS initiative has a separate budget of an investment made on top.

They had teams developing live service games like Bluepoint and Bend who had zero business doing so. I would say that qualifies as negatively affecting single player output. Bluepoint are known as a porting and remake studio ffs! Having games cancelled, even after a couple of years, is a waste of development time which only gets compounded even more when it happens across multiple SIE studios.

Now, the second part of this statement may well be true. But it seems like a dodge to me. I've noticed that whenever the negative consequences of the live service push is brought up in these threads, some variation of "well SIE still made X number of single player games so it's as good as ever / you should be happy / the studio wasn't really affected".

The point is, they could have produced more. And it's an important issue because even if it's factually correct that Sony first party are doing as much as ever (I personally agree), there is a growing dissatisfaction from players that they simply are not.

 

[Bernardougf]

Seems entirely functional to me. I think you are severely underestimating the length of dev-cycles and the lingering impact of the pandemic.

Its tempting to think that we're past the effects of the latter, but I'd just point out that when 5-6 years between releases is standard, we're still in a time where almost every major title will have been in some stage of development during those years.

i think you are coping, hard.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I've seen all this cope before. I've even been a part of it.

You cant ignore that more and more people are choosing not to buy sonys sequels.

The defence force try to deflect anyway they can. Blaming xbox, blaming pc, dev cycles, covid anything that can be blamed but not point the finger at the business that is clearly showing levels of miss management of astronomical levels.

They point to profits and margins and sales like its the perfect answer to the miss management and lack of quality games, great sequels etc.

I fully expect ghost of yotei to sell less that tsushima and there will be more excuses made to defend the huge corporation.

I just hope Nintendo lights a fire under someone's ass at Sony.

1 first party single player game a year is not going to cut it for me. I can wait for the pc ports in that case.

I'll hold out to see how yotei reviews and honest feedback that it isn't just an open world assassins creed clone...but if there isn't something seriously impressive out within the next 6 to 12 months ill just sell my ps5 pro. Someone will get a bargain as I've not even used it lol.

 

[Clear]

i think you are coping, hard.

Not at all. I just form my perspectives based on more than my personal desires.

There are good reason why this is Sony's most profitable generation by far, even adjusting for inflation.

Honestly, I don't know why people wade into business orientated topics without factoring in the big picture that's guiding their decision making. Classic example being this fixation on first-party output when fundamentally third party produced titles where Playstation owns the IP are functionally identical from a portfolio management perspective.

It goes to the reason why Xbox, despite having massively more first-party than ever, is failing to increase marketshare. Constantly throwing out product into channels already stuffed with similar/competing offerings is just shitty portfolio management even if it makes the hardcore happy.

Its like acting like Sony not having a Bloodborne remaster/sequel ready is a problem and ignoring how heavily represented that style of game is in the marketplace... including titles produced by their development partner on the IP!

 

[Steve Holt]

I've seen all this cope before. I've even been a part of it.

You cant ignore that more and more people are choosing not to buy sonys sequels.

The defence force try to deflect anyway they can. Blaming xbox, blaming pc, dev cycles, covid anything that can be blamed but not point the finger at the business that is clearly showing levels of miss management of astronomical levels.

They point to profits and margins and sales like its the perfect answer to the miss management and lack of quality games, great sequels etc.

I fully expect ghost of yotei to sell less that tsushima and there will be more excuses made to defend the huge corporation.

I just hope Nintendo lights a fire under someone's ass at Sony.

1 first party single player game a year is not going to cut it for me. I can wait for the pc ports in that case.

I'll hold out to see how yotei reviews and honest feedback that it isn't just an open world assassins creed clone...but if there isn't something seriously impressive out within the next 6 to 12 months ill just sell my ps5 pro. Someone will get a bargain as I've not even used it lol.

Do you only show this passion when it's Sony

 

[KungFucius]

Kill all of the live service shit. Then kill off the woke shit and finally please get out of California.

Maybe you should cut back on the right wing bullshit. FYI Fox news is dishonest entertainment media, not something that keeps you informed.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Do you only show this passion when it's Sony

Nope, I was complaining about the lack of Fable at this years xbox show...and that show was no more than a c or d rating if they are lucky.

 

[crackajack]

"Not necessarily quality" Please STFU. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GqrjRSOWoAA23k_?format=jpg&name=small

I think you understood the exact opposite of what I said.

 

[Steve Holt]

Nope, I was complaining about the lack of Fable at this years xbox show...and that show was no more than a c or d rating if they are lucky.

Oh yeah just seen you did.

Is the 25 year anniversary next year?

If it is. Its obvious they are are trying to create some mega hype year. Maybe new hardware?

I was not bothered about any other game apart from fable. That game is taking forever. I wouldn't grade the show more than a C or D for the fact that was missing.

Scathing.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Oh yeah just seen you did.


Scathing.

I mean, do you disagree with what Ive said in any way? That Sony have completely dropped the ball and mismanaged their studios to legendary levels this gen?

Theyve literally tried to make single player devs make GAAS games for the ps5 gen, more or less cancelled them all and now left a massive hole from their first party studios. Incomniac has pretty much carried the entire PS5 gen on their own.

Whats your thoughts?

 

[Hudo]

Bungie should be working on single player too

I wonder if Bungie have the people to make a good single player campaign, tho.

 

[Steve Holt]

I mean, do you disagree with what Ive said in any way? That Sony have completely dropped the ball and mismanaged their studios to legendary levels this gen?

Theyve literally tried to make single player devs make GAAS games for the ps5 gen, more or less cancelled them all and now left a massive hole from their first party studios. Incomniac has pretty much carried the entire PS5 gen on their own.

Whats your thoughts?

I wrote a post earlier about something similar.

On other side with Sony, will get the PS6 but maybe later in the gen, but haven't been impressed with anything except Returnal, GT7 and Astrobot. Third party support with SH2, Stellar Blade and Black Monk Wutong, has helped

Glad they have dropped their GaaS push and Jim Ryan is out the door.

But their studios need to be doing much more. Haven't seen much from any of them this generation.

I just think that whatever Sony does or doesn't do, you're going to be mad.

Since there doesn't seem to be the same energy with Microsoft who have failed and lied to their audience since Xbox 360 (one of my fave ever consoles btw).

 

[DenchDeckard]

I wrote a post earlier about something similar.



I just think that whatever Sony does or doesn't do, you're going to be mad.

Since there doesn't seem to be the same energy with Microsoft who have failed and lied to their audience since Xbox 360 (one of my fave ever consoles btw).

Your post is absolutely on the money for my experience.

Gt7, returnal and astro bot have been brilliant.

Microsoft have failed miserably with how they've handled the last two generations. There's no denying that and they are literally out of the console race because how they have handled their business.

There's been years and many comments about how Microsoft have failed. My comment was literally highlighting that.

 

[Bernardougf]

Not at all. I just form my perspectives based on more than my personal desires.

There are good reason why this is Sony's most profitable generation by far, even adjusting for inflation.

Honestly, I don't know why people wade into business orientated topics without factoring in the big picture that's guiding their decision making. Classic example being this fixation on first-party output when fundamentally third party produced titles where Playstation owns the IP are functionally identical from a portfolio management perspective.

It goes to the reason why Xbox, despite having massively more first-party than ever, is failing to increase marketshare. Constantly throwing out product into channels already stuffed with similar/competing offerings is just shitty portfolio management even if it makes the hardcore happy.

Its like acting like Sony not having a Bloodborne remaster/sequel ready is a problem and ignoring how heavily represented that style of game is in the marketplace... including titles produced by their development partner on the IP!

Sorry, you presented a fair argument but still sounds like cope, and will always sound like it, its just impossible to defend Sony first party output/pipeline at this point without appearing like a big shill.

 

[mckmas8808]

Because they are all suffering from a mental deficit.

All of them? Seriously!

It's a creativity problem. That applies to cinema too. So many great specialists won't get you anything if the thinking heads are running out of ideas and the few ones they come up with are fucking terrible. In this era, California is the worst place to settle, because the brain rot is contagious, these people hang out with one another and get infected.

Having the gaming and cinema divisions so much intertwined is also a mistake. A big one. It limits the creative potential of making genuine videogames without a cinematic tie-in.

But you say this as if a game having a "cinematic tie-in" is bad. Gamers have been buying those games for many years now.

 

[Clear]

Sorry, you presented a fair argument but still sounds like cope, and will always sound like it, its just impossible to defend Sony first party output/pipeline at this point without appearing like a big shill.

Let me put it to you this way:

The whole idea that Sony is somehow really great at managing is first-party studios is, basically, bullshit! They've put out really good games over the years, but generally speaking their first-party studios have *ALWAYS* been flabby and way less productive than they really ought to be.

A lot of the reason for that being that when you constantly swing big swings... your whiffs are equally massive.

Its just extremely weird to me that people seem shocked when this happens right now! New IP's underperforming or failing outright is a not a new phenomenon. Projects spinning their wheels or getting cancelled when doubts start to creep in is not a new phenomenon either.
Same as layoffs and studio closures.

The thing that most people seem to miss is that first party has never been about creating a lot of good games, its always been about creating a handful of tentpoles that can be used to hang the brand's "hat" on.

Third-party content is supposed to do the rest.

So, with that mind, understand that "at least one" single-player tentpole a year is sufficient for purpose. Especially if they supplement with exclusives sourced via XDev (2nd Party) or though deals with other publishers.

And in parallel with that they can continue their investment into the GAAS market as its the most obvious path to expansion and greater profitability if they can start to create hits in this space as well...

Sorry, but this is how the business thinks. And especially with transmedia being the new gold-rush, these tendencies are going to get even more pronounced.

At the end of the day my point is that while Playstation's studio management is far from perfect, I've not seen anything that would make me fearful for the future of the platform.