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[Punished Miku]

As many consider murdering the unborn to be callous. I don't think any of these perspectives are particularly difficult to understand.

Well one involves turning a rape victim into a forced incubator against their will for 9 months in a slow motion denial of bodily autonomy after they were freshly traumatized so they can spawn the continuation of their rapists genes because some people believe in a make believe spirit in the sky that doesn't exist. I dont pretend to understand it.

P.S. dont make me take a covid shot though

 

[Wimbledon]

A grifter usually stays well hidden in his mom's basement, behind his camera. Sure like everybody he needed some money to support his family (and no NGO was giving him any taxpayer money) but Charlie was risking his life everyday to peacefully debate with everybody.

I completely disagree with this , their are plenty of public influencers who shifted their stances, changed their whole modus operandi to appeal to certain audiences.

I see these individuals all the time, talking down on their own, or appealing to groups with questionable talking points, or working with questionable people. This isn't new.

 

[ShadowNate]

In all of this is there any serious talk about security in campuses, how much it failed (if there was any), how a person could stroll about carrying a hunting rifle undetected, set up camp on a roof and kill someone at an open campus event?

Has this been a constant significant risk on campuses/open events in the US?

 

[GamesDontSuck]

BBC news reporting the killer was "college age" - not surprising as it was at a university.
The Wall Street Journal reporting that the FBI have recovered a rifle in a "wooded area" that they believe to be the one that was used.

 

[HAYA8U5A]

"...after a man drove through a vigil on a scooter shouting "F*** Charlie Kirk."

Jackass 6 is going to be insane.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

the bullets where engrave with ideologically remarcs?!?!?!

 

[FullMetalx117]

The call to arms is cringe tbh, like bro even with all the guns most here have only known peace time. Hell the immigrants are coming from less peacetime environments, they may thrive in that situation. Would not be surprised at all the shooter was ex military, or the type who goes on hunts to Africa every years (that's not macho either btw, hardly 'hunting')

 

[DragoonKain]

Yeah i disagree with a lot of this.

Just because your showing up and having a conversation doesn't automatically mean someones trying to unify or build that bridge....its a strategy. The goal to appear reasonable while pushing divisive or dehumanizing ideas its still division its just dressed in civility.

I'm not interesting in applauding someone for being polite while at the same time poisoning the well. He's not the only who did that, but to me its a grift a profitable one.

I think you are just doing a lot of projecting about him. You have your opinion of him, which you have a right to have, and it feels like are trying to justify that opinion by viewing everything he does as manipulative, not genuine, or a scheme to get a desired outcome of his, and generally through a cynical lens. If there's evidence of that then by all means, but I've seen nothing to support that. On top of that, receiving death threats like he did, I respect going to campuses where your life has been threatened to have conversations with people. It takes balls. And ultimately, he lost his life doing something he believed in.

 

[calico]

Well one involves turning a rape victim into a forced incubator against their will for 9 months in a slow motion denial of bodily autonomy after they were freshly traumatized so they can spawn the continuation of their rapists genes because some people believe in a make believe spirit in the sky that doesn't exist. I dont pretend to understand it.

P.S. dont make me take a covid shot though

Because they consider the alternative to require murdering an innocent. If you are going to deliberately try to not understand the argument then you won't be able to, obviously.

 

[Flash Junkins]

In all of this is there any serious talk about security in campuses, how much it failed (if there was any), how a person could stroll about carrying a hunting rifle undetected, set up camp on a roof and kill someone at an open campus event?

Has this been a constant significant risk on campuses/open events in the US?

At a campus of that size they have some wanna be campus cops and local law enforcement, unless they called out for federal assistance. There are between 1-5 people monitoring all screens at the college. Most skimp on protection and think gunshot monitors make up for it. Been fighting this fight for years.

 

[AJUMP23]

He was also willing to force his underage daughter to carry a rape baby to term if such a thing ever happened. Truly dad of the year candidate, right there.

In the long run, they are probably better off.

I think "force" is a mischaracterization. I would represent it this way, that if someone was raped and got pregnant through it, then the destruction of another life because of the way it came about would be just as wrong as the evil of the rapist. For Christians all life has value no matter how it originated. It is a natural conclusion to say that when you value life you would value life through an evil situation. The story of Joseph and his brothers represents the idea of Evil for good well. Also Paul in Romans gives a major tenet of the Faith, overcome evil with good.

GEN 50:
19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
21 Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

Rom12:
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

This is not to say you need to agree, but maybe you could be more careful with how you think about your fellow man. And just because they have a viewpoint you do not agree with it does not make them evil. Or make someone better off to not be around them because they espoused views you don't like. It is a fairly twisted mind to think a child is better off without their father because of his views on the sanctity of life. If people valued life a lot of problems would solve themselves.

 

[ResilientBanana]

You state, and I quote:
the diabolical shit that Charlie has been quoted saying is pretty off the rails.


In your post, it seems like you are using this sentence to validate the fact that he was killed. So I am simply asking you to be specific about this "diabolical shit". It's really not that difficult.

If you haven't looked up any quotes, click the google link, or read anything in thread I'm not going to do it for you. I'm not saying his death was justified, it wasn't. but it's not surprising people took heavy offense to what he essentially spoke about and it's very clear that is the case given his situation.

 

[miller152]

I think "force" is a mischaracterization. I would represent it this way, that if someone was raped and got pregnant through it, then the destruction of another life because of the way it came about would be just as wrong as the evil of the rapist. For Christians all life has value no matter how it originated. It is a natural conclusion to say that when you value life you would value life through an evil situation. The story of Joseph and his brothers represents the idea of Evil for good well. Also Paul in Romans gives a major tenet of the Faith, overcome evil with good.






This is not to say you need to agree, but maybe you could be more careful with how you think about your fellow man. And just because they have a viewpoint you do not agree with it does not make them evil. Or make someone better off to not be around them because they espoused views you don't like. It is a fairly twisted mind to think a child is better off without their father because of his views on the sanctity of life. If people valued life a lot of problems would solve themselves.

I really don't care what some bearded dude wrote (or didn't write) 2000 years ago. If you still believe in the magic man living in the skies during the year 2025, well, I guess good for you. Keep doing it, but don't try to force others to also live in the same way.

 

[EviLore]

"I can't stand the word empathy, actually," Kirk says in the video. "I think empathy is a made-up, new-age term that does a lot of damage."

I haven't heard his reasoning, but I assume it's similar to something like philosopher Paul Bloom's argument that demanding "empathy" from others is mainly a tool for emotional manipulation, very much distinct from acting compassionately while in control of your emotions—as, e.g., a doctor would.

Again, you may not agree but it's hardly cartoon villain stuff.

 

[calico]

I completely disagree with this , their are plenty of public influencers who shifted their stances, changed their whole modus operandi to appeal to certain audiences.

I see these individuals all the time, talking down on their own, or appealing to groups with questionable talking points, or working with questionable people. This isn't new.

Oh no, not... questionable talking points and questionable people

Charlie seems to have been fairly consistent in his positions as far as I have seen. No doubt he has shifted in some ways, which is hardly surprising for someone who has been a public figure from 18 onwards.

 

[AJUMP23]

I really don't care what some bearded dude wrote (or didn't write) 2000 years ago. If you still believe in the magic man living in the skies during the year 2025, well, I guess good for you. Keep doing it, but don't try to force others to also live in the same way.

I am trying to appeal to your better nature to understand the point of you. It isn't about forcing the way you live. I think you could think beyond your own bias to understand the idea of valuing life. Maybe you cannot.

 

[Gexxy1]

So you wanna argue the civil rights act is bad? Go ahead.

Sowell (and Kirk, who probably got most of his talking points on the subject from him), pointed out that since Civil Rights in the 60s, blacks have gotten poorer, are more likely to commit violent crimes, more likely to grow up in single parent households, more likely to do drugs, more likely to be victims of crime, more likely to be unemployed, etc. For nearly any metric you can think of, life has gotten worse for black Americans since Civil Rights. This is statistically true. The question becomes why.

Sowell/Kirk argued that welfare programs, minimum wage laws, and poor public schooling provided by the government, are what caused this (iirc among other things, like the growing culture of two parents not staying together). You can disagree, but that is what they believe. However, I have noticed when you pose the question to a leftist, they respond in one of three ways:

a) wish-washy or vague 'it's complicated' or 'who knows,' neither of which is an answer
b) try to argue that America is more racist today than it was in the 50s - 60s, which is why blacks are worse off today
c) do what you just did- plug your ears and call anyone who questions what your teacher taught you a bigot.

 

[miller152]

I am trying to appeal to your better nature to understand the point of you. It isn't about forcing the way you live. I think you could think beyond your own bias to understand the idea of valuing life. Maybe you cannot.

I don't think a clump of cells is "life". In the EU 3-4 months after conception is the usual limit for abortion, and I'd say that's pretty fair.

 

[Ishma3L]

The typical conservative Christian view in the US is that life starts at conception. The logical result of that view is not being able to take that life of the fetus arbitrarily no matter the circumstances, just as you can't choose to throw a newborn baby down a well if it was the product of rape.

You can disagree with that stance and many do, but the view is not stemming from some callous evil toward his daughter, just the universal right to life of the baby.

Exactly. Don't agree? Get an abortion.

Again, the dude was not forcing his belief on you.

 

[Boneless]

If you haven't looked up any quotes, click the google link, or read anything in thread I'm not going to do it for you. I'm not saying his death was justified, it wasn't. but it's not surprising people took heavy offense to what he essentially spoke about and it's very clear that is the case given his situation.

Of course it's not surprising people took heavy offense, there are people taking heavy offense every day on all sorts of topic. One might draw a funny picture of jezus that leads to heavy offense. So what? You're saying that his death is not justified, but you're indirectly also trying to justify it.

 

[Wimbledon]

I think you are just doing a lot of projecting about him. You have your opinion of him, which you have a right to have, and it feels like are trying to justify that opinion by viewing everything he does as manipulative, not genuine, or a scheme to get a desired outcome of his, and generally through a cynical lens. If there's evidence of that then by all means, but I've seen nothing to support that. On top of that, receiving death threats like he did, I respect going to campuses where your life has been threatened to have conversations with people. It takes balls. And ultimately, he lost his life doing something he believed in.

No i don't think im projecting, i think i'm being reasonable. I don't think everything a person does in manipulative BUT i do think their is a strategy for going on campuses and trying to shape public opinion as a polarizing public figure. To say that that's not the case i just think is silly.

His post of the mentally ill , homeless black dude stabbing the ukranian girl doesn't help. Thats the most recent example prior to this incident, his post didn't acknowledge he was mentally ill or that he was homeless. Like im just saying a reasonable person would talk about all those factors. Instead his post "America will never be the same" with the girl moments from being stabbed by the black dude.

Their plenty of other example as well. But i do feel like this conversation is going in circles. So we can agree to disagree on this.

 

[captainnapalm]

I think you are just doing a lot of projecting about him. You have your opinion of him, which you have a right to have, and it feels like are trying to justify that opinion by viewing everything he does as manipulative, not genuine, or a scheme to get a desired outcome of his, and generally through a cynical lens. If there's evidence of that then by all means, but I've seen nothing to support that. On top of that, receiving death threats like he did, I respect going to campuses where your life has been threatened to have conversations with people. It takes balls. And ultimately, he lost his life doing something he believed in.

Doesn't seem like the guy was much of a monster based on this personal message he sent to Coleman Hughes. This Hughes guy wrote a sensible book on racial discourse so of course got attacked by the shrews on The View for it.

 

[Duellist]

I can't even believe the deplorable shit I'm reading on social media, including from this thread………oh wait yes I can. We're fucked

 

[Wimbledon]

Oh no, not... questionable talking points and questionable people

So your for abandoning discernment?

 

[Sebastian1295]

He was also willing to force his underage daughter to carry a rape baby to term if such a thing ever happened. Truly dad of the year candidate, right there.

In the long run, they are probably better off.

Saying that someone is better off that they're dad just died is fucking disgusting of you to say and i've read alot of disgusting stuff just browsing this page for 5 minutes. You're a vile and disgusting human for saying something like this and you need to reflect upon yourself and try and understand why you're such a hateful person.

 

[JackHanma]

Empathy and Tolerance have been weaponized to flood the west with immigrants with incompatible values.

 

[DragoonKain]

I was thinking today that this tragedy brings to mind the assassination of the healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. That thread was similar to this one. A lot of people expressing remorse for a death, but also a lot of people I wouldn't say cheering his Thompson's death, but saying "The guy was a piece of shit, I hate what he stood for" "I'm not sad about this" etc. And I feel even more strongly about one of my takes that I said at the time, and this murder of Charlie Kirk just reinforces it more strongly now. And for this particular point I'm not talking specifically about NeoGAF posters, I'm talking generally. I was telling others at the time that when people try to justify the murder of someone like Brian Thompson, what it really comes down to is the death of someone who someone either disagrees with; or people believe represents "a side" of something people disagree with... is basically the ultimate form of affirmation. "Person X was killed, therefore my position is justified." And it counts as a "win" for those who are on one side of an issue opposite the murder victim, and that makes them feel good that they got the win... in that case the death of a human being. What it comes down to is people getting off to a person they didn't like being killed.

I think this murder just makes me believe even more strongly that I was right with that take. And another thing I said at the time to people fraudulently trying to either advocate for or justify Brian Thompson's murder was that it wouldn't change anything. And of course that was the case. The healthcare system didn't change. The "It's starting a conversation about healthcare in America!" takes which were laughably stupid then look even dumber now. There was no "conversation about healthcare" in fact, congress just recently voted to strip more Americans of healthcare in the BBB. The only thing it accomplished was possibly(we'll see in future weeks/months/years) that assassinations are acceptable. Especially when you see how many people online support Luigi Mangione. And I fear that like many crimes throughout history, we will see a bevy of copycats or inspired crimes. And I wonder if this is one of them.

A lot of us were saying this stuff at the time, and I think that debate is now settled. I just hope assassinations don't become a norm in this country.

 

[Signalis]

Reading this thread has me come to some conclusions. There are a lot of people in here somehow subtly trying to justify what happened was right or "he said this in a video" etc, etc. You're no better than vile scum. Fuck you and your whatabousism, hiding it with subtle pretty words makes you a piece of shit. You all know who you are. Go celebrate on resetera or your other left wing shithole.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Of course it's not surprising people took heavy offense, there are people taking heavy offense every day on all sorts of topic. One might draw a funny picture of jezus that leads to heavy offense. So what? You're saying that his death is not justified, but you're indirectly also trying to justify it.

Definitely not justifying it at all. I think it's crazy I don't think anyone's life should ever be lost over what they believe in. What's also crazy is the fact that you would rather argue with me then educate yourself.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Been watching some of his debates, I only know him from a south park episode. Look, tragedy aside, this guy is no Jordan Peterson. I'm not the type to like people if their debate style is to condescend, talking over, and yelling over (the trump style) even if I happen to agree with views - you can find 'debaters' like this everywhere . A lot of his debates are filled with 'i don't agree with premise' or 'it should be this way' and then pulling some 'evidence' card without really even showing it and backing it up and I'm sure evidence is heavily skewed anyways, you can make graphs to say anything if you know how to. And then it sucks for the other side that he basically has the mob showing up at these events, can't even have a proper debate. Not impressed.

 

[StabbyStabStabStabStab]

Empathy and Tolerance have been weaponized to flood the west with immigrants with incompatible values.

I don't think you need to look to immigrants to find incompatible values...

 

[Portugeezer]

Having passed on your genetic material doesn't magically make you immune from criticism. Some fathers have outright raped their children, you think those kids wouldn't be better off and happier if such a person got ventilated?
Now Kirk is not quite that bad, but he clearly doesn't believe his daughter should have bodily autonomy, which is completely fucked up.

His daughter will probably grow up with his same values.

 

[AJUMP23]

I don't think a clump of cells is "life". In the EU 3-4 months after conception is the usual limit for abortion, and I'd say that's pretty fair.

I am not trying to convince you of that. You have to be able to listen to someone else's ideas and say I can understand why they wouldn't want abortion. Not to change your mind. You advocated that Charlie's daughter is better off because Charlie believed something about human life that you do not. If you cannot understand that is a bizarre mindset. A man who loved and treated his family with love and kindness and provided for them was assassinated, and you think his daughter will have a better life because he is dead simply for his stance on abortion. Can you not see how detached from humanity that is?

 

[GamesDontSuck]

FBI just released this.

 

[Mistake]

I'm not a Christian or agree with some things Charlie has said, but I do believe he was a good guy. He was genuine and much more likely to have a beer with you than most, even if you were completely opposed. That's how things should be. But that's looking like a lot less of a possibility now

 

[Vestal]

Doesn't look like he has the weapon with him in that pic. So have to assume it was planted prior to the shooting.

 

[ValiantInstance]

It's the same as with J.K. Rowling. They need to lie about his words to justify their hate and extremism. People who defend this are so coward that they can't even be honest about what they are really opposing.

These guys love bringing up a handful of abstract statements (researched by a third party) about any given individual as if that invalidates everything they've ever said.

It took them 8 years to finally let go of "very fine people on both sides".

 

[near]

Doesn't look like he has the weapon with him in that pic. So have to assume it was planted prior to the shooting.

He is just a suspect. He may or may not be the shooter.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

FBI just released this.

What's that t-shirt?

 

[Atrus]

As difficult or even bias as it is, people should operate within the many legal avenues we have in democracies that places like Russia or China don't even allow.

Extremism is a good way for enemy agents to destroy a nation from within. They could pull the trigger, groom an agent, or amp up an already twisted individual etc.

This is a very real threat these days and one of the biggest reasons people should choose to de-escalate, even if they seemingly hate what someone says, does or does not do. I'd hate to be scratching my head as to who Charlie Kirk is on a Monday and then see the US in Civil War 2 by Sunday because AI bots have stoked everyone toward violent conflict.

 

[Flash Junkins]

Told ya. Millenial..

 

[Havoc2049]

Empathy and Tolerance have been weaponized to flood the west with immigrants with incompatible values.

Try to stay on topic and at least keep it in the Charlie Kirk Assassination realm (Charlie Kirk himself, gun control, etc.). I could be wrong, but we'll probably find that the shooter was American.

 

[Boo Who?]

I am not trying to convince you of that. You have to be able to listen to someone else's ideas and say I can understand why they wouldn't want abortion. Not to change your mind. You advocated that Charlie's daughter is better off because Charlie believed something about human life that you do not. If you cannot understand that is a bizarre mindset. A man who loved and treated his family with love and kindness and provided for them was assassinated, and you think his daughter will have a better life because he is dead simply for his stance on abortion. Can you not see how detached from humanity that is?

This post here is as logical as it can get.

 

[calico]

Now Kirk is not quite that bad, but he clearly doesn't believe his daughter should have bodily autonomy, which is completely fucked up.

Or he is also considering the right of his grandchild to not be murdered. You don't consider that right to exist at all, but others do.

But well done for at least figuring out he is not quite as bad as someone who rapes their own daughter.

 

[Kacho]

FBI just released this.

Hope they get him alive like Luigi.

 

[DragoonKain]

Doesn't look like he has the weapon with him in that pic. So have to assume it was planted prior to the shooting.

Hard to tell but looks like he has a backpack on in those photos. Could be used to store a weapon. I don't know anything about the gun in question so I don't know if it could fit in or be disassembled to fit in a backpack.

 

[th4tguy]

What's that t-shirt?

looks like an american flag with a gun in front? Hard to tell

 

[Madflavor]

Told ya. Millenial..

How can you tell?

 

[Kacho]

Hard to tell but looks like he has a backpack on in those photos. Could be used to store a weapon. I don't know anything about the gun in question so I don't know if it could fit in or be disassembled to fit in a backpack.

No, the shooter used a bolt-action rifle.

 

[12Goblins]

When does life begin?

Depends. The meaning of 'Life' depends on context

-Biologically, begins with cellular activity
-Ethically, when we develop the faculties that grant personhood or morals
-Religiously, when we are granted a soul
Etc

To ask "when does life begin?" outside it's context is misleading because it mixes different uses of the word "life" and to ask for a single answer is confusing/misusing language . This is why a biologist, a doctor, a judge, a priest, etc would all have different meaning for the same word--it is context dependent.

It's why questions like 'what is a woman?' and expecting a singular answer is to create confusion.

Source: the goat philosopher, wittgenstein