Tomb Raider II is being ported to Sega Saturn by a fan

Not sure if you are serious with this kind of posting.

Isn't the Saturn supposed to be the console that didn't reach it's "full potential"? Isn't that what all you hardcore Saturn fans are saying all the time?

Well, the PS1 didn't have that issue. From day one, they could make good use of the hardware and produce good looking games and after that, some really impressive stuff later on. I'm sure you agree the PS1 reached 100% of it's potential since it was the easiest to develop for, had more developers working for it and lived the longest life compared to it's competitors.

So what's the issue then? What do you expect the PS fan community to do if there's nothing else to squeeze from the console?

It's only natural for the Saturn to have a more active homebrew scene nowadays, if it was indeed not squeezed properly in it's lifetime, plus it also has an army of disappointed fans who want to prove it could do better. And the same exact thing also applies to the N64 scene, which also had a bad run when it comes to "squeezing it's hardware" and that's why it also has a very strong homebrew presence nowadays producing impressive demos and games.

The PS1 has nothing else to offer. It's fans were satisfied and moved on.

PS fans (well, the general public) continued playing their old PS1 games on subseqent consoles and continued playing those big series on them (Gran Turismo reaching 100m sales for example). Talk to anyone of a certain age, especially here in the UK, and they'll recall all the big PS1 games, they became part of mainstream culture which endures.

Saturn fans cling to Saturn more because it feels like it has been forgotten by the masses, its game aren't part of public consciousness and most of its big franchises are now dead.

Look at the franchises Sega are bringing back, apart from Virtua Fighter they're all ones from the MegaDrive and Saturn days. The Saturn community was very disappointed that Saturn is the generation Sega seem to want to forget.

Whenever you see stuff on social media about the 90s you never see anything about Saturn yet the likes of cireza cireza want you to believe no one cares about PS1 anymore, I think they're on a different planet.


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Again I still a lot of love for many of Saturn's games and I feel it's a huge shame so many never experienced the likes of Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, NiGHTS: into Dreams, Virtua Cop etc.

I'd be shouting from the rooftops for everyone to buy and play the Panzer Dragoon Zwei remake if it weren't for the fact it looks like a fucking piece of shit.
 
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Fair play, but I never want to hear you complain about PS2 again.

Fair considering it was nearly 30 years ago too?
I wasn't talking about you with regards to 30 years ago.

But since you talk of the PS2 remind us again how many of it's DC ports equaled the 480p display res much less the vibrancy of the DC versions.
 
I wasn't talking about you with regards to 30 years ago.

But since you talk of the PS2 remind us again how many of it's DC ports equaled the 480p display res much less the vibrancy of the DC versions.

Mom, because DC was fucking awesome.

It looks great on my 55" OLED via Kaico HDMI.

I'm no fan of PS2's image quality at all
 
Not sure if you are serious with this kind of posting.

Isn't the Saturn supposed to be the console that didn't reach it's "full potential"? Isn't that what all you hardcore Saturn fans are saying all the time?

Well, the PS1 didn't have that issue. From day one, they could make good use of the hardware and produce good looking games and after that, some really impressive stuff later on. I'm sure you agree the PS1 reached 100% of it's potential since it was the easiest to develop for, had more developers working for it and lived the longest life compared to it's competitors.

So what's the issue then? What do you expect the PS fan community to do if there's nothing else to squeeze from the console?

It's only natural for the Saturn to have a more active homebrew scene nowadays, if it was indeed not squeezed properly in it's lifetime, plus it also has an army of disappointed fans who want to prove it could do better. And the same exact thing also applies to the N64 scene, which also had a bad run when it comes to "squeezing it's hardware" and that's why it also has a very strong homebrew presence nowadays producing impressive demos and games.

The PS1 has nothing else to offer. It's fans were satisfied and moved on.
Now imagine the exact same post but with PS2 written instead. Kind of hilarious.

Very poor explanation overall. The MegaDrive matches exactly the description you give, yet it is getting awesome homebrews.
 
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Very poor explanation overall. The MegaDrive matches exactly the description you give, yet it is getting awesome homebrews.
So your sane, logical explanation is the PS1 doesn't have as active homebrew scene because "PS1 fans can't do shit". Not because there is not as much interest, but because they can't do it.

Like Sega fans are these geniuses full of talent folks (and apparently N64 fans too by your logic) but the PS1 fans are this dumb, talentless hivemind or whatever.

Yes, brilliant explanation there. Very sane and logical. You almost don't sound like a raging, butthurt Sega fanboy at all.
 
TR, RE, Road Rash, Wipeout and most multiplatform games suffered from awful sfx on Saturn. It didn't have the audio hardware close to PS1.

As for the look of those games. I do enjoy the punchy colours and chunkyness of 3D models on Saturn.

This is a cool project though, and it's great that people are still doing these homebrew ports on systems like Saturn and Dreamcast.
 
Tomb Raider 2 would have been totally possible on the Sega Saturn, but both reasons "Sony's Deal" and "Technical Difficulties" are valid reasons why it didn't happen.
Even if the Saturn was the leading console in sales to justify the effort to port it, it still would have been a very underwhelming port.
 
So your sane, logical explanation is the PS1 doesn't have as active homebrew scene because "PS1 fans can't do shit". Not because there is not as much interest, but because they can't do it.

Like Sega fans are these geniuses full of talent folks (and apparently N64 fans too by your logic) but the PS1 fans are this dumb, talentless hivemind or whatever.

Yes, brilliant explanation there. Very sane and logical. You almost don't sound like a raging, butthurt Sega fanboy at all.
Not that I have any opinion on this, but it would definitly be interesting to see homebrew PS1 ports of VF2, Panzer Dragoon, Burning Ranger, Daytona USA and some others.
 
Tomb Raider 2 would have been totally possible on the Sega Saturn, but both reasons "Sony's Deal" and "Technical Difficulties" are valid reasons why it didn't happen.
Even if the Saturn was the leading console in sales to justify the effort to port it, it still would have been a very underwhelming port.
Absolutely possible. Sure, performance could have suffered, and cutbacks in other areas, but a serviceable port was possible.

That split memory could have meant some larger more open 3D world games not being feasible though. Stuff like Driver, King's Field, Silent Hill.
 
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So your sane, logical explanation is the PS1 doesn't have as active homebrew scene because "PS1 fans can't do shit". Not because there is not as much interest, but because they can't do it.

Like Sega fans are these geniuses full of talent folks (and apparently N64 fans too by your logic) but the PS1 fans are this dumb, talentless hivemind or whatever.

Yes, brilliant explanation there. Very sane and logical. You almost don't sound like a raging, butthurt Sega fanboy at all.
Can't believe how seriously you took this small taunt lol. I was being facetious...

However you should give a bit more thoughts about the reasons you think people make homebrew projects. Because even SEGA homebrew devs don't invest thousands of hours of their time because they are "disappointed fans who want to prove it could do better".
 
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Yep, DC a better and more powerful system :messenger_tongue: To be this Good takes SEGA

They're very different.

PS2 makes up for it with higher poly counts, particle effects, depth of field etc.

Very few 480p games like Tekken 4 and Soul Calibur 2 where as everything on Dreamcast was 480p, which is why I prefer Dreamcast on my big TV.

Coupled with games with timeless graphics like Dead or Alive 2 it's a big reason why it has a permanent place in our living room.



Perfection
 
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They're very different.

PS2 makes up for it with higher poly counts, particle effects, depth of field etc.

Very few 480p games like Tekken 4 and Soul Calibur 2 where as everything on Dreamcast was 480p, which is why I prefer Dreamcast on my big TV.

Coupled with games with timeless graphics like Dead or Alive 2 it's a big reason why it has a permanent place in our living room.



Perfection

God I was joking, but if you like you talk of PS1 power making Saturn ports look worse thanks to screen res and colour and the imagine looking more clear and vibrant.
Well the same is true for DC ports to the PS2 like Maken X, Dead Or Alive, Grandia 2, Space Channel 5 Part 2 Ect, ect.

Poor PS2 couldn't handle 480P in so many of its games, what a weak console :p
 
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Looks good, tho the colors are kind of garish palette-wise. Although, I think I'm getting a better understanding as to why that may be.

Saturn has 4 KB of programmable on-chip CRAM (Color RAM), but it's located on VDP2. So palettes are shared with VDP1, and usually you can mirror the palettes. From what I've noticed you have a maximum of 2048 palette entries of either 2048 word-length (16-bit) or long word (24-bit, tho it takes up 8 extra bits so 32-bit or double word) organized colors, with 16-bit or 24-bit color options. 8-bit color (256 Mode) is also supported but I don't know much about it.

PS1 doesn't have any CRAM but you can program software-based CLUTs in the VRAM. Which is slower to access (higher latency), but technically you can make it as small or big as you want. So there's flexibility in size not necessarily present with Saturn. On Saturn you can cycle the palettes every Hblank in theory, but in practice more like mid-frame, or even swap out the old palette completely with a new one. I wonder if any games reserved a portion of the VRAM for other palette info, or if the palette data had to be loaded by the SH-2s into VDP2 through registers directly? Although even there I'm still gonna assume they'd put the palette info in VDP2's VRAM first.

Also from what I've read PS1 supported multiple color depths in a frame (or better to say, multiple graphical elements at different color depths); not sure if Saturn did. I could have just not come across the info. From a quick Google search it says that VDP1 supported 8-bit or 16-bit (15-bit RGB, 1-bit alpha) color modes; the 24-bit color mode was exclusive to VDP2. And that might just in large part explain why colors in ports of 3D games between the two systems look so different. Well, that and PS1 having baked-in features for lighting and shadows, whereas Saturn didn't (though you could implement software-based versions no problem).

Core always said that Tomb Raider 1 was a multi-platform game. But the first media shown for the game was for the Sega Saturn. The Sega Saturn version was the lead console for TR1, due to the way the maps were constructed for quads, the game was designed within the limitations of the Saturn.

I am pretty sure some of the very first media for TR1 appeared in November or November 1995 issue of Game Fan Magazine with early Saturn beta screenshots.


Tomb Raider II's engine was redesigned to take advantage of the PS1, and the Playstation one became the lead development system for Tomb Raider II to Chronicles. Tomb raider II was originally planned for the Saturn, and I think Core even had a playable version of it at some trade show. But Tomb Raider 1 sold like like crazy on the PS1 (and PC), and Sony paid for every numbered sequel to be PS1 exclusive.

Yeah, that's the general history of Tomb Raider on Saturn & PS1. To be fair as well, SEGA themselves killed any chance of Tomb Raider 2 coming to Saturn when Stolar said "The Saturn is not our future" at E3 '97.

Still one of the worst lines from any gaming CEO in history. Terribly timed, basically just conceded SEGA's entire Western market and pushed them to limp by for TWO YEARS with little to no retail presence outside of Japan & parts of Asia (and maybe Brazil), until Dreamcast in late '99. They made every single mistake Atari made going from the 7800 & Lynx to the Jaguar, including the worst one of just being absent at retail for an extended period of time.

That was entire distribution channels and retail partners just closing up for SEGA, and became very difficult if not impossible to reignite once Dreamcast was a thing.

total.
Sega Saturn has significantly inferior 3D technology to the PlayStation, but it's not because of quads, complexity or anything like that, the Saturn's 3D chip doesn't have the same HP as the PS1's GPU that's the reason.

You're using terminology that doesn't even make sense. Console power isn't measured in hit points.

Saturn has more MIPs processing between the 2x SH-2 CPUs (~ 74 MIPs combined) and SCU DSP (86 MIPs) than the PS1 (30 MIPs for the R3000A CPU; 66 MIPs for the GTE). It has more VRAM (1.5 MB vs 1 MB), and a much larger texture cache for the 3D engine (512 KB 17 ns latency SDRAM (as VRAM) for VDP1 vs. 2 KB on-chip texture cache for PS1's renderer since the 60 ns EDO-DRAM was too high latency).

VDP2 has upwards 17:1 tiled "compression" ratio and can push roughly 500 Mpixels/second doing 2x 3D rotation planes. No other console could match that in terms of polygon equivalents until the Dreamcast in 6th gen.

That's your 'HP' for you. Yes it was harder to harness all that power in Saturn fully synchronously vs PS1, especially when budgets and timelines were tight, but the power IS there.

Translation: Sony paid us millions of pounds for exclusive rights to Tomb Raider just like they done with Namco & Squaresoft as they can't make a decent game themselves to save their lives

Sony didn't have to pay Namco to avoid supporting Saturn; Namco themselves chose that after seeing what Sony were doing with the PS1. That's why they decided to make the System 11 board in collaboration with Sony.

As for Squaresoft; they like many other Japanese 3P that gen wanted to move away from Nintendo after Famicom/SFC days, Sony just happened to be in the best position to offer them what they needed. SEGA were too busy hastily redesigning Saturn from late '93 into early '94, and falling behind on devkits & API support to 3P, to really impress SquareSoft with much.
 
Looks good, tho the colors are kind of garish palette-wise.
That's the only reason i played the PS1 version of Powerslave over the Saturn one. And used the PS1 color palette on the remaster.

I'm aware the Saturn version is superior otherwise, but those colors are harsh on my eyes. I prefer PS1's version more natural/earthly colors.

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Holy shit! TR2 in the Saturn was something I hoped it would arrive back in the day. It's insane how modders are able to make this a reality.
 
Not that I have any opinion on this, but it would definitly be interesting to see homebrew PS1 ports of VF2, Panzer Dragoon, Burning Ranger, Daytona USA and some others.
Destruction Derby 2 and Demolition Racer are very similar to Daytona USA.
 
That's the only reason i played the PS1 version of Powerslave over the Saturn one. And used the PS1 color palette on the remaster.

I'm aware the Saturn version is superior otherwise, but those colors are harsh on my eyes. I prefer PS1's version more natural/earthly colors.

uV8V8Z0JJzt7dbzQ.png
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Yeah, that's the general history of Tomb Raider on Saturn & PS1. To be fair as well, SEGA themselves killed any chance of Tomb Raider 2 coming to Saturn when Stolar said "The Saturn is not our future" at E3 '97.

Still one of the worst lines from any gaming CEO in history. Terribly timed, basically just conceded SEGA's entire Western market and pushed them to limp by for TWO YEARS with little to no retail presence outside of Japan & parts of Asia (and maybe Brazil), until Dreamcast in late '99. They made every single mistake Atari made going from the 7800 & Lynx to the Jaguar, including the worst one of just being absent at retail for an extended period of time.

That was entire distribution channels and retail partners just closing up for SEGA, and became very difficult if not impossible to reignite once Dreamcast was a thing.

It was such a stupid thing to say over 2 years before its successor was available in the west. All he had to do was reaffirm that Sega were staying in the business with big plans head.

I read both that and news of TR2's PS1 exclusivity on the same day, it was a real gut punch having bought a magazine advertising E3 with loads of new game reveals and being excited to see what was coming.
 
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Still prefer the PS1 version because ot the colors.
That's your good right.

Can't stand the wobbling as far as I am concerned, and screenshots don't even show how much it moves/waves when you move around or move the camera. So distracting.

This is at least something that was anticipated correctly when making the Saturn, as the console addressed pretty well this issue having quads instead of triangles, before perspective correction became a norm. You only have distortion for quads that have coordinates outside the viewpoint, while PS1 is an absolute wave fest everywhere.
 
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That's your good right.

Can't stand the wobbling as far as I am concerned, and screenshots don't even show how much it moves/waves when you move around or move the camera. So distracting.

This is at least something that was anticipated correctly when making the Saturn, as the console addressed pretty well this issue having quads instead of triangles, before perspective correction became a norm. You only have distortion for quads that have coordinates outside the viewpoint, while PS1 is an absolute wave fest everywhere.
That's why I never understand these talks about PSX's "better textures". They might be better on paper, but the wobbling effect completely nullifies any advantage.
 
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