Myuni
Member
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
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Imtjnotu
Member
Calliso is gorgeousness
Polygonal_Sprite
Gold Member
The girl in the OD trailer is the best human ever created in a real time cutscene. It's flawless. Say what you want about Kojima he always pushed tech and hardware.
BlownUpRich
Member
This guy has been disproven by countless actual developers so many times before, all he does is spill out some technical jargon that may seem like sophisticated talk to the uneducated & then tries to craft a narrative around it in order to gain mass influence by fanning the gamers' frustrations, he is a literal Narcissist, who's been blocking every developer who asked to come and have a discussion with, he copyright strike'd so many people on Twitter & YouTube for standard fair use, yet tries to craft this reality where he's being attacked by all people around him & that he is THE ONLY individual who is unearthing the truth in the face of adversity, to make the gamer's games "optimized!"
He didn't even come up with his "Better than TAA" Anti-aliasing solution for 2 to 3 years now, he "needs" 900K donations for that, absolute toxic grifter.
He made multiple videos where he took a sculpted map made up of geometry, lighting set-ups and all that in UE5, and then he says "let's optimize it" and all he literally did is reduce shadow resolution & remove Hardware RT Lumen, and people are shocked in the comments at how this "one guy optimized a map whereas the lazy AAA devs could not", so much clownery I tell you what!
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
The Best grifter on YouTube. At least he puts in effort other grifters don't.
Also unintentionally hilarious. I just take one look at his smug serious face like he's unearthing evidence of genocide and burst out laughing. Again, other grifters don't have the balls to put their face on their videos. He might actually be using face AI but that's even more hilarious and shows just how much effort this crazy bastard puts into his videos.
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metareferential
Member
He may be a grifter but some of his points are still valid. Saying Epic doesn't give a shit about devs or that gamers are idiots because they accept everything is just the truth.
Same goes for the general trajectory the industry is following this gen: no real graphical progress because of TAA and shitty practices (and that's what we always say around here).
And he's also right about Expedition 33. That game is fugly. xD
Can't say anything about the tech jargon or actual tech explanations, as I'm not a developer or software engineer.
That said, UE5 is better than no UE5.
Same goes for the general trajectory the industry is following this gen: no real graphical progress because of TAA and shitty practices (and that's what we always say around here).
And he's also right about Expedition 33. That game is fugly. xD
Can't say anything about the tech jargon or actual tech explanations, as I'm not a developer or software engineer.
That said, UE5 is better than no UE5.
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T4keD0wN
Member
Which engine providers offer better tools, documentation, pricing and offer more support than Epic with Unreal? Doubt there are any, if there were better alternatives, UE wouldnt have a market share that rivals Unity, which is pretty much just used for small projects.
Maybe you shouldnt accept what he says as the truth.
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Senua
Member
No real graphical progress? UE5 alone is making great strides, not to mention snowdrop and others. Also Expedition 33 looks awesome. RTGI is the major step forward this gen
kevboard
Member
it doesn't. not on a technical level anyway. it has great art design, and looks decent DESPITE UE5. Lumen quite literally makes the game look like absolute shit in some spots... but we already went over this.
my real identity is: a human with functional eyeballs
which is why I can look at this and tell you that Lumen is the worst real time GI tech in the industry
(watch in 4K)
low ray count + low precision BVH:
Lack of Screen Space information when too far away as well as obvious light leak and denoiser boiling.
weird brightness changes due to lack of screen space information for secondary bounces, as well as specular highlights flaring up in the dark due to reflecting a bright cubemap while Lumen tries to react to the changing camera to fill the gaps where you see those white sparkles:
another example of reflection ghosting.
one issue that happens from time to time with Software Lumen, is that some scenes just go full darkness due to the lack of screen space information for secondary bounces. you saw this partly in the third video above.
Once the screen space information is gone, the entire GI just blacks out as no primary light bounce is visible anymore for it to create ambient lighting.
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Senua
Member
Yes dude that mansion is probably the worst looking part of the game, but overall for a first outing the game looked fantastic, and that's thanks to UE5 and great artists
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Epic has been constantly improving performance with each upgrade. There is a guy who covers UE5 version upgrades on youtube. Every version comes with new features like nanite foliage or mega lights or nanite tesselation. Every other version improves lumen performance. you can easily measure this. It's up to the devs to build their game on that version. They dont. Could Tim Sweeney send some of his engineers at all of these firms to sort out issues? maybe. but are we at a point where devs have to be babied and we are ok with it?
Expedition 33 devs had a total of 4 programmers. not graphics programmer. total of 4. and they were able to upgrade to 5.4 and deliver a stable 60 fps game. other bigger devs didnt. wukong, sh2, stalker all shipped on UE5.1 when UE5.4 was already out. literally 4 versions behind.
UE5 gets more hate this gen than any other engine. So again, i dont understand how gamers are accepting of this.
kevboard
Member
no it's despite of it.
if this game didn't use Lumen whatsoever, it would look better. it doesn't have large open areas (not counting the overworld map of course), and it has no dynamic time of day.
perfect conditions to bake the lighting and have stable GI while allowing higher resolutions.
the game is low resolution, has constant RT boiling in dimly lit areas, bad performance, weird areas that look way too dark when light sources go out of screenspace due to how shit Lumen is... the list goes on.
I only concentrated on the mansion in my posts, because when I posted those posts I was only just starting the game. the mansion looked so UNFATHOMABLY broken that I then tried to "fix" the issue by playing on PC instead of Xbox. but even with .ini tweaks, trying to disable SSR, trying a higher sample rate etc., it couldn't be fixed really.
but, many areas in the game look either very much last gen, or broken. in dark areas you often have weird shimmering everywhere, that (it seems to me) happens due to a very bright fallback cubemap leaking through the spotty Lumen coverage. then you got weird artifacts at the edge of the screen that reminded me on those videos of failing PS4 GPUs that made the rounds last gen. and every time you have a reflection you have ghosting out the ass as well as GI ghosting of course.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Expedition 33 is uneven but a beautiful looking game. A lot of that is because UE5 allowed devs to push the visuals thanks to Lumen and Nanite. We literally have examples of what happens when smaller dev teams even with $60 million budgets are creating garbage like yotei. thanks but no thanks.
I wish it was more consistent. But for a 50 hour game from 30 college grads and 3 ubisoft employees, it's incredible in scale. People talk about art style in games trumping technical graphics in other games, and i always found it to be nonsense. they are doing that in the ac shadows vs yotei thread. But compare this art style to yotei. You can have both visual fidelity and an incredible art design that is unique, beautiful while maintaining current gen fidelity and cinematography that rivals the best sony studios.
I wish it was more consistent. But for a 50 hour game from 30 college grads and 3 ubisoft employees, it's incredible in scale. People talk about art style in games trumping technical graphics in other games, and i always found it to be nonsense. they are doing that in the ac shadows vs yotei thread. But compare this art style to yotei. You can have both visual fidelity and an incredible art design that is unique, beautiful while maintaining current gen fidelity and cinematography that rivals the best sony studios.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
I like that some main characters aren't "cute" or "attractive" because it makes it more authentic and immersive for me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I don't like the way the actual cast and dev team acts or their views on Charlie Kirk etc, they are horrible in that regards...
Cute babe vs. ugly man.
Critical Hit
Member
Software Lumen. I agree that most of the time it's trash. But hardware Lumen is ok.
Same, it's not about the ugly face, it's about knowing who it belongs to and also hearing that activists voice. I don't know how people can just ignore that while playing unless you agree with her "world view".
mrMUR_96
Member
What should they have used instead of UE5? Not using lumen means they would have had to bake lighting which would increase development time and budget which is restrictive for a team that size.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Well pack it up boys, with the day one patch yotei turn into hellblade 3
xcancel.com
Andy Robinson (@Andy_VGC)
I've not been able to check it out yet, but according to Sucker Punch, the improvement between this and the version reviewers played is "shocking"
xcancel.com
T4keD0wN
Member
Anything else but lumen/RT would be unfeasible for a team of that size for launch, Lumen is still a more feasible choice, but it would be nice to get a full RT post-release update if they can get assistance from Nvidia.
Wukong on UE5 already offers both for example and Cyberpunk got it added after launch. Dont know how closely they work or if at all, but they got dlss upgrades pretty fast after release, itd be a nice PR win for Nvidia to help these devs.
Lumen kind of limits the potential quite a bit (especially in the mansion) even if you mod in ray reconstruction (i believe the game uses hw lumen, but i didnt bother checking to verify)
But at least the game has amazing designs and artstyle (among many other things) so its still a visual feast.
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Its Jedi Survivor.
Senua
Member
Lumen issues aside, do you really think a small rookie studio could pull of a game of this magnitude and looks the way it does without the tools of UE5?
Toots
Member
I wasn't aware that we were taking the gayest man on earth opinion into account hereGraphically speaking shadows looks better, majority of people's says that, lol even Alex from digital Foundry say that
And don't even try it, no one listens to me either
GymWolf
Gold Member
Maybe or maybe not.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Nanite tesselation? That sound promising...
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
You know whats been bothering me a lot since that Yotei and Shadows comparison video? The fucking water rendering. it is atrocious by 2025 standards. But thats not the worst part. That would be SP not bothering to integrate the water tech in HFW into their engine. HFW is literally the best water on the market. Came out almost 4 years ago. Is available to every sony studio due to the engine being inhouse. And its not been used by anyone other than Kojipro that uses the same engine. Why?
I understand it cant be easy to take tech from one engine and port it to a completely different engine. ive done this at work and even if the programming language is the same, it takes time and effort, and a lot of testing for the most basic of functionality. But they had $60 million and FIVE fucking years. You take one look at your water and tech, and then the tech in HFW and immediately send some guys over for a knowledge transfer.
And it's not just that. GG revolutionized the 1v1 dialogue conversations with HFW making them look just as good as cinematics. Did they share the tech with anyone? Nope. Why the fuck not? Apparently its an algorithm and entirely procedural according to DF. So again, its just a matter of porting code.
Then you have the shaders for foliage, the overall lighting model, character models, hero lighting, and so many other things HFW does better than a game that came out well over 3.5 years later. If your team doesnt have a big budget and you dont have 300-500 developers to add all this tech in their own engine, and you dont want to pay Epic a 12% royalty fee, then fucking use your own inhouse engine, no?
I understand it cant be easy to take tech from one engine and port it to a completely different engine. ive done this at work and even if the programming language is the same, it takes time and effort, and a lot of testing for the most basic of functionality. But they had $60 million and FIVE fucking years. You take one look at your water and tech, and then the tech in HFW and immediately send some guys over for a knowledge transfer.
And it's not just that. GG revolutionized the 1v1 dialogue conversations with HFW making them look just as good as cinematics. Did they share the tech with anyone? Nope. Why the fuck not? Apparently its an algorithm and entirely procedural according to DF. So again, its just a matter of porting code.
Then you have the shaders for foliage, the overall lighting model, character models, hero lighting, and so many other things HFW does better than a game that came out well over 3.5 years later. If your team doesnt have a big budget and you dont have 300-500 developers to add all this tech in their own engine, and you dont want to pay Epic a 12% royalty fee, then fucking use your own inhouse engine, no?
Senua
Member
Did they fix the terrible rock textures
mrMUR_96
Member
Yeah this is exactly what I was saying a while back about Playstation's ICE team, was brilliant back in the ps3 days. Why didn't SP work with Insomniac considering how crappy the shadow of yotei RT is, as insomniac have done great work with RT.
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
GymWolf
Gold Member
Horizon best water?
Maybe the look, interaction is not better than many others and shallow water (ankle high) interaction straight up look bad from what i remember.
I think rdr2 and some ac games still have the best water overall.
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Toots
Member
I remember people standing like posts just like in every other games. Models looked good but there was nothing revolutionary about it.
You are right about the water tech tho. Why not use it ?
one explanation (you won't like it) : it's an artistic choice and "too realistic" water would not go well in the world they created.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
yeah, they showed this off at the marvel 1943 demo. added in UE5.4. Allows them to add tessellation without breaking memory requirements.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
They literally wrote an algorithm to 'direct' each dialogue scene with different camera angles, character movements, facial animations and other dynamic animations based on the dialogue. No manual adjustments required. Which is why every single dialogue sequence felt handcrafted/directed/shot.
I remember people standing like posts just like in every other games. Models looked good but there was nothing revolutionary about it.
You are right about the water tech tho. Why not use it ?
one explanation (you won't like it) : it's an artistic choice and "too realistic" water would not go well in the world they created.
No other game since has even tried to do anything different. They just place the camera infront of the NPC and player, and cue the wooden facial animations.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
yes, the look. Im sure the physics based rdr2 water on PC has better fluid simulation. But in terms of rendering, horizon fw has so many different kinds of water, and it does all of them beautifully. Deep ocean, still ponds, beaches, rivers, reflections, refractions. its godly.
This is what ghost water looks like.
This is horizon fw water.
And they said, no thanks, we will release our own garbage tech. No shame.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Nah he is right, you have to go into cyberpunk territory to have something comparable but with better cinematography (also more static characters).
I remember people standing like posts just like in every other games. Models looked good but there was nothing revolutionary about it.
You are right about the water tech tho. Why not use it ?
one explanation (you won't like it) : it's an artistic choice and "too realistic" water would not go well in the world they created.
Fw is the gold standard for npcs chit chat with multiple choice rpg style.
GymWolf
Gold Member
C
CGNoire
we can have a silly, light hearted screenshot war in here to decide what is the best ue4 game between jedi and days if you want, the purple retards are great at making screenshots of games so i have a lot of ammo (even if a lot of the best are not avaialable anymore, you are lucky)
I'll start:
Random npcs on a camp with no dialogue
Ingame no cutscene face self-shadowing, pretty rare even today if my memory is correct, and incredible face details if i may
You can't fucking tell me this look much worse than yotei...
I'll start:
Random npcs on a camp with no dialogue
Ingame no cutscene face self-shadowing, pretty rare even today if my memory is correct, and incredible face details if i may
You can't fucking tell me this look much worse than yotei...
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
jedi is cross gen. i thought you said last gen only.
jedi and callisto are two of the best looking ue4 games if you include current gen.
GymWolf
Gold Member
BUt the first jedi game look nowhere near callisto quality so i could accept the challenge even if not completely fair, just to have some fun, i legit think days gone 2 on ue5 would have smashed jaws if days gone was their first attempt at open worlds with a relatively small studio.
I don't think the results are as onesided as you think they would be other than stuff like lights and shadows and reflections.
P.s. you are lucky that i can't find some of the most photorealistic pics of dg anymore, i had some that were incredible...
P.p.s. added pics to my previous post.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Days Gone > Jedi Fallen Order
Jedi Survivor > Days Gone
And yes, i think they wouldve done a great job with UE5. But they have switched to Decima now. And wasted 5 years on a GaaS game that was cancelled.
BTW, both Striking Distance Studios and Respawn are using UE5 to make their next games. Striking Distance studios was gutted after the the studio head left, but they are still alive and making their new AAA single player game on UE5. Respawn is making the third Jedi game on UE5. They had debated on switching over to UE5 for Survivor but decided against it since it was still in beta and they wanted the game out in 3 years.
I think both will be lookers. Especially since they will be built on UE5.4 at the minimum. If they go with UE5.5, they will get access to megalights which would be amazing if they are making a scifi game with an urban setting. lots of light sources would be perfect for megalights. If they go with UE5.6, we might finally have hardware lumen on base consoles like witcher 4, but i doubt games that started development in 2022,2023 are going to be using the latest versions.
I still think the best is yet to come for UE5. A lot of the most talented studios have actually not released a game on UE5. The most talented studio from last gen with a UE5 game is Ninja Theory and they created the best looking game of all time. the rest are all first time studios or previously c tier studios from Taiwan, china, and eastern europe.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
The level of detail in these screenshots is incredible. I actually dont remember it being this detailed despite playing it on the Pro. Maybe i will buy it on PC.C CGNoire we can have a silly, light hearted screenshot war in here to decide what is the best ue4 game between jedi and days if you want, the purple retards are great at making screenshots of games so i have a lot of ammo (even if a lot of the best are not avaialable anymore, you are lucky)
I'll start:
Random npcs on a camp with no dialogue
Ingame no cutscene face self-shadowing, pretty rare even today if my memory is correct, and incredible face details if i may
You can't fucking tell me this look much worse than yotei...
GymWolf
Gold Member
On pc it looks even better even if officially there was no work on textures, must be just the way better iq.
And i shit you not, those are not even the best pics, i had legit photorealistic stuff but the img host probably has a timer so they are not available anymore.
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Bojji
Gold Member
Horizon has some bodies of water that look ugly as fuck, like water in caves or that lake near Horus - UGLY SSR reflections and static water lacking details.
But
SlimySnake
is right, Horizon has so many types of water and most of them look fucking amazing. RT reflections would fix the rest.C CGNoire we can have a silly, light hearted screenshot war in here to decide what is the best ue4 game between jedi and days if you want, the purple retards are great at making screenshots of games so i have a lot of ammo (even if a lot of the best are not avaialable anymore, you are lucky)
I'll start:
Random npcs on a camp with no dialogue
Ingame no cutscene face self-shadowing, pretty rare even today if my memory is correct, and incredible face details if i may
You can't fucking tell me this look much worse than yotei...
Looks better than Yotei in some aspects for sure.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Any simple way i can fix this?I've been cucked by Starmer and can't see any Imgur pictures
Maybe i can upload some of the best in another img host?
I'm gonna post the second batch in 30 min
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
omg i was thinking about yesterday when i saw some rumblings on social media. Absolutely ridiculous. wtf did imgur ever do to UK?I've been cucked by Starmer and can't see any Imgur pictures
who else here lives in UK? i will try giphy but they butcher the details.
p.s. we are on our way to match the UK. Just last night, i was prompted for the first time to verify my age when visiting an educational website. i just wanted to research how big bosomed nurses reproduced with patients suffering from certain side effects of Viagra.
Senua
Member
Yea those are good thanks.Any simple way i can fix this?
Maybe i can upload some of the best in another img host?
I'm gonna post the second batch in 30 min
These hosts are good
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imgbb.com
I have no idea, I guess because they allow NSFW uploads? And yea the worlds gone mad
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Ooh, i just remembered, Crystal Dynamics is also working with UE5 on the next tomb raider. they wasted five years working with Microsoft on Perfect Dark's co-development but now that the game is cancelled, we should finally have everyone at that studio working on the next tomb raider. crazy how its been five years since their last game and no footage. A lot of the best studios from last gen just took covid off it seems. ND, CD Project, Crystal Dynamics, Coalition, Metro Exodus devs, Ubsioft Montreal (Black Flags, Origins, Valhalla team) have all been MIA this gen.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Any simple way i can fix this?
Maybe i can upload some of the best in another img host?
I'm gonna post the second batch in 30 min
Such an underrated game in so many ways. Thanks for sharing these beautiful shots.
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