Support NeoGAF

[Geometric-Crusher]

Games didn't need to sell millions back then​

wrong, since the NES games needed to sell millions, although with 300,000 copies a 2D game was considered a success. It's the sale of games that brings revenue to video game companies.
It's the games that sell hardware, therefore, sales are decisive for the success or failure of a console, as well as for the permanence of a company in this sector.

Some games exceeding that by miles didn't mean it was a requirment for any success (even for their own, nobody made games aiming for that until many such titles showed it was achievable with a growing market).​

Games are a business, nobody makes games to be flops, I doubt that Sega made those shovelwares thinking only about selling 200,000 copies. As I said, until 1996, Sega had a larger base than the PS1, but game sales happened on the PS1, but on the Sega Saturn, games sold few units.

Of course I'm not arguing Saturn was a financial success on x and x level, everyone knows it wasn't, I'm just saying you're wrong to make that claim about a million, never mind multiple millions back then.​

If Saturn was a commercial failure because it had few IPs that reached 1 million copies, while others were successful because they had many of those IPs, then I am correct.

Just like you've been pushing all their (knowingly generally not as successful as the competition so nobody ever said otherwise, just pointed out they can actually be good and worthy or underrated products despite a lack of success) games were simply objectively unworthy and therefor didn't sell as Sega was just shit back then on every level, from greenlighting projects to system and game making, to marketing.​

Yes, I said that and I confirm it.
After this analysis, the conclusion I reach is that Sega's human resources were made up of professionals with low intellectual capacity, so there wasn't much they could do. There is evidence; Sega employees thought that a mascot game would be unfeasible in 3D because the camera films the character from behind. They are imbeciles. Every 3D game is like that, including Crash and Mario 64, whose sales are higher than any 3D Sonic game.

Well, you can, as you have been, but it doesn't make it true. It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose (spectacularly at that)​

well prove it with an example

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Sega employees thought that a mascot game would be unfeasible in 3D because the camera films the character from behind. They are imbeciles. Every 3D game is like that, including Crash and Mario 64, whose sales are higher than any 3D Sonic game.

Do you have evidence of this?

There's a lot of theories that NiGHTS started life as an attempt at 3D Sonic on Saturn before Sega Team just gave up.

Would Sonic have saved Saturn?

 

[Team Andromeda]

I tried an emulated version of Batman Returns on Sega CD and I hated the driving sections. SNES version was better. Cliffhanger Sega CD version has really lame audio tracks, awful quality fmv sequences, and some of the most ill-fitting snow boarding. I see no reason to own it over the Genesis version. Battle Corps I have never even previously heard of but Metal Head on 32X wipes the floor with it based on all the footage I have seen. SoulStar is cute but then 32X had something as amazing as Star Wars Arcade. I would honestly rather play Jungle Strike or After Burner on Genesis than the absurd pseudo-3D mishmash of Thunder Hawk. Wing Commander did not blow me away at all. Shadow Squadron on the 32X is far more impressive.

I really don't know what SNES version you played, but the driving sections are not better in that version, even the driving sections to Batman the movie on the Amiga was way better than the driving sections in Snes Batman. . The audios tracks in Cliffhanger are taken directly from the film, so you've lost me on that one and since when does a game based around a film need to follow it faithfully?. All that is to overlook the point of those games handling graphical effects beyond what a base Mega Drive could

And now you're bringing 32X into it? The Mega CD came out in 1991 and was a CD add-On just like for the PC-Eng, why you look to compare it to the 32X is a little beyond me. I rather play a Arcade perfect version of AB 2 on my Saturn to the 32X or Mega Drive version, much rather play Stella Assault on the Saturn to the 32X version, if you want to try and be clever.

My point was when the Mega-CD was used you could get a experience way beyond over what the base Mega Drive could offer, even if it was little more than using the Mega CD's audio chip and the CD Drive for CD-DA music. Pitfall is so superior on the Mega-CD thanks to the better sound effects and CD music over the base MD version and that also goes for the 32X version too, like it is for NHL 94 on the MD compared to the Mega CD version, much the same for Fifa on the Mega Drive compared to the Mega CD version and the less said about the dire 32X version of Fifa, the better.

 

[cireza]

You make it sound like the games are completely different but they are the same thing with a different wrapper. Minor variations would not change my opinion because the core experience to me is lacking.

They are highly different but what can I say ? You haven't played them and are still convinced to be right.

 

[NeverYouMind]

I really don't know what SNES version you played, but the driving sections are not better in that version, even the driving sections to Batman the movie on the Amiga was way better than the driving sections in Snes Batman.

Half the Sega CD version is driving and the other half is the lousy Genesis version stapled to it. The SNES version has only one level of that nonsense, which makes it more bearable on top of everything else in higher fidelity. I know nothing about the Amiga, but I sure as hell do not play a Batman game to drive around.

All that is to overlook the point of those games handling graphical effects beyond what a base Mega Drive could.

The point is that those Sega CD effects suck and in no way address the shortcomings of the Mega Drive unlike 32X games.

They are highly different but what can I say ? You haven't played them and are still convinced to be right.

I played a higher fidelity version of them which was good enough for Sega CD's direct successor (the Saturn) and that is good enough to form an opinion on the matter.

 

[Parazels]

what Sega taught the market was that idiots can't design hardware, produce commercially viable games, and market effectively. If such people exist within a team, they need to be removed.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Sega's final console was oozing in personality and had great exclusives.

Xbox Series won't be remembered anywhere near as fondly as Dreamcast.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Half the Sega CD version is driving and the other half is the lousy Genesis version stapled to it. The SNES version has only one level of that nonsense, which makes it more bearable on top of everything else in higher fidelity. I know nothing about the Amiga, but I sure as hell do not play a Batman game to drive around.


The point is that those Sega CD effects suck and in no way address the shortcomings of the Mega Drive unlike 32X games.


I played a higher fidelity version of them which was good enough for Sega CD's direct successor (the Saturn) and that is good enough to form an opinion on the matter.

I'm not on about the crappy platform parts, but the driving sections and Batman Returns is displaying of the best graphical effects around at that time, way beyond what a base Mega Drive could do, or even Mode 7. Your point about not driving is rather silly too, when the Batmobile is a famous feature in the film and TV series

And like I said the Mega CD is 1991 and basically just a CD-Rom drive for the system, much like PC Eng Cd-rom and it did look to address some of the short coming of the Mega Drive with 8 channels of PCM sound all of which could play samples and scaling and rotation effects. The 32X was a poor man's Saturn and was utterly pointless, so why you talk up the 32X, I do not know.

I'm talking back in the day, don't give me the higher fidelity rubbish, I can play an Arcade perfect version of Star Wars The Arcade now, not the massively cutback 32X version. You're being a little silly on that point IMO.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Your point about not driving is rather silly too, when the Batmobile is a famous feature in the film and TV series

GTFO That crap ruined the finale of the Arkham trilogy.

 

[cireza]

I played a higher fidelity version of them which was good enough for Sega CD's direct successor (the Saturn) and that is good enough to form an opinion on the matter.

Golden Axe on PS2 was a higher fidelity release as well. What a shit game ! No need to play the original.

By the way the videos on SEGA-CD look ten times better than the encoded stuff on PS/Saturn. Higher fidelity lol.

 

[nkarafo]

Parents bought the toy console for their kids.

Yes. To play Goldeneye and Turok.

Thankfully people not as insecure with their manhood didn't miss on games like OOT, Majora's Mask, Starfox, Mario 64, B-K, etc.

 

[Team Andromeda]

GTFO That crap ruined the finale of the Arkham trilogy.

Next, you'll be saying it ruined the films too *rollseyes*

 

[Team Andromeda]

By the way the videos on SEGA-CD look ten times better than the encoded stuff on PS/Saturn. Higher fidelity lol.

This was impressive back at the time and way beyond what the base Mega Drive could handle and more impressive than Mode 7 in part







And even if was just better sound effect, music and prestation, it added so much over base Mega Drive versions

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Do you have evidence of this?

Yes, I do, but I forgot the name of the executive who said that filming a mascot from behind would be terrible, but look at the Sonic prototypes.
One looked like Bonanza Bros, Sonic threw shurikens rings, another was basically the game Bug! using Sonic, and the third was Sonic Xtreme. All of these games avoid filming Sonic from behind.

There's a lot of theories that NiGHTS started life as an attempt at 3D Sonic on Saturn before Sega Team just gave up.

This theory is wrong, Sega Saturn is a Japanese console made for Japanese consumers, note that Capcom is Japanese but its games are made for westerners, Nights is a mascot for the Japanese market, Sonic started to have some success in Japan only in 2022.

Would Sonic have saved Saturn?

Certainly, a Sonic game made in 32-bit 2D with 3D effects would be mind-blowing. Sega had the chance to receive all the glory that Nintendo received, but deliberately chose to make very low-quality games. Some so-called fans like the SEGA brand, and because they like Sega, they praise all these bland games. Imagine if current Sega followed these guys' advice? They would go bankrupt again. Do you know why Virtua Fighter 6 excites us ? Because it may be the first time they'll make a quality VF game.

 

[NeverYouMind]

By the way the videos on SEGA-CD look ten times better than the encoded stuff on PS/Saturn. Higher fidelity lol.

Lets compare.


Conclusion: The video on Sega CD cannot even scroll smoothly at its lower resolution and framerate.

This was impressive back at the time and way beyond what the base Mega Drive could handle and more impressive than Mode 7 in part

And even if was just better sound effect, music and prestation, it added so much over base Mega Drive versions

What it added to Road Rash or rather what it took away is the best example of what half assed effects do when added to an already great game.

 

[cireza]

Lets compare.

You didn't compare shit and are full of bad faith. You are wrong, have not played both versions of Lunar 1 and 2, and are self convincing yourself by checking quickly videos on youtube.



Absolutely destroys all the encoded shit of the 32bits era, as well as having a better design of the characters on top of it.

Lucia in the remake, where the beautiful pixel-art cinematics were replaced by hand-drawn anime.

SEGA-CD :

 

[cartman414]

It doesn't work that way, comrade. If the PS1 hadn't performed well, Sony would never have increased subsequent investments . The other user is right, Sega had the advantage of having IPs recognized throughout the west, but Sega made the conscious decision to ignore them all and create new games without charisma. Sega consciously decided to give up that advantage. That's why I insist that the intellectual capabilities of Sega's teams were limited, note that only 5 PS1 games were decisive, 5 games! Sega produced 17 games in the period but 5 was enough.

What they lacked in charisma they made up for in substance.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Lucia in the remake, where the beautiful pixel-art cinematics were replaced by hand-drawn anime.

Pixel art has to animate well to be considered beautiful. Sega CD can't animate for shit.

 

[Team Andromeda]

What it added to Road Rash or rather what it took away is the best example of what half assed effects do when added to an already great game.

What crap are you talking about? Road Rash on the Mega-CD is Road Rash 3 only with better sound effects and amazing in-game music, which your piss ant video link,
didn't even show and is looking to compare Road Rash 2 running the Mega Drive, not Road Rash 3 on the Mega Drive, DOH!!!



Here's an example of an already good game made better over the base Mega Drive version, thanks to better sound, prestation and even use of the ASIC chip for better effects on Mega CD

 

[NeverYouMind]

What crap are you talking about? Road Rash on the Mega-CD is Road Rash 3 only with better sound effects and amazing in-game music, which your piss ant video link,
didn't even show and is looking to compare Road Rash 2 running the Mega Drive, not Road Rash 3 on the Mega Drive, DOH!!!

Road Rash II has a different UI than what is shown in the video. Road Rash on Sega CD was a downgraded port of Godlike 3DO next gen version of the original. Road Rash 3 is a different game altogether.

P.S. That Temu-ass clone of Bonk as an example of what Sega CD could do over Genesis is laughable.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Road Rash II has a different UI than what is shown in the video. Road Rash on Sega CD was a downgraded port of Godlike 3DO next gen version of the original. Road Rash 3 is a different game altogether.

P.S. That Temu-ass clone of Bonk as an example of what Sega CD could do over Genesis is laughable.

What part of the Mega CD version of Road Rash is using the Road Rash 3 engine do you not understand ?

 

[cireza]

Pixel art has to animate well to be considered beautiful. Sega CD can't animate for shit.

Then you didn't even click on the video. You are hopeless.

And Road Rash on Mega-CD is based on the Road Rash 3 engine. You are utterly clueless.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Then you didn't even click on the video. You are hopeless.

And Road Rash on Mega-CD is based on the Road Rash 3 engine. You are utterly clueless.

Yes it getting ridiculous and to look to compare a CD add-on to a 3D9 much less a 32X is the stuff of trolling.

 

[BlackTron]

wrong, since the NES games needed to sell millions,

Very few games sold millions back then, when a Nintendo title broke a million it would appear in a "Players Choice Million Seller" box starting from SNES. The original Metal Gear on NES only just sold one million, and most games could not expect to do that. Games don't appear in special packaging just for breaking a million today because the expectations and economics are different; it's like NOT having the badge would be seen as a failure in itself while before an elite lineup had it.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Very few games sold millions back then, when a Nintendo title broke a million it would appear in a "Players Choice Million Seller" box starting from SNES. The original Metal Gear on NES only just sold one million, and most games could not expect to do that. Games don't appear in special packaging just for breaking a million today because the expectations and economics are different; it's like NOT having the badge would be seen as a failure in itself while before an elite lineup had it.

I think a lot of games sold over a million, but data tracking wasn't what it was in mid the 90s. I bet a number of Atari 2600 or even on Mattel Intellivision

 

[RoboFu]

" hur hur dur Sega CD cant do animation "

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Very few games sold millions back then

but among these few the great ips were born

It's impossible for a console to remain on the market if its games reach a range of 300,000 people while its competitors sell up to 5 times more.

more sales, more money, it's a positive feedback loop.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Do you have evidence of this?

There's a lot of theories that NiGHTS started life as an attempt at 3D Sonic on Saturn before Sega Team just gave up.

Would Sonic have saved Saturn?

Nights actually started life as a 2D game , so no . The issue was giving the task of making Sonic Xtreme for both the Mega drive and 32-bit systems to the twats at Sega America. If anything, SEGA would have been better off giving the project to Sega Europe and Traveler Tails to handle, while work on Nights was going on.

They would have done a far better job than the muppets at Sega America,. For me mind Sonic Team Japan should have been mandated to make Project from the start and not in 1996

 

[bobone]

I've said this in other posts on the Saturn.
My cousin got one a month after launch. I played it at his birthday party.
I was completely unimpressed.

It just didn't have games that kids in America wanted.
The fact that it did well in Japan is great, I enjoyed those games when I got a Japanese Saturn years later.
But the normal American kid did not like the Saturn library.
They just didn't.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

''TV is about 2D'' Yuji Naka

for 1995 I agree but for 1996 I don't agree

 

[NeverYouMind]

And Road Rash on Mega-CD is based on the Road Rash 3 engine. You are utterly clueless.

What part of the Mega CD version of Road Rash is using the Road Rash 3 engine do you not understand ?

Road Rash 3 has cop cars, choppers, greater weapon variety, and 2-player unlike Sega CD garbage. RR3 has none of the downgraded 3DO content either. It is just a shitty makeshift port of next gen version with none of the features of Road Rash 3. Despite being developed around the same time it is utter dogshit in comparison.

" hur hur dur Sega CD cant do animation "

It animates FMVs about as well as PowerPoint as in not really at all.

 

[cireza]

It is just a shitty makeshift port of next gen version with none of the features of Road Rash 3.

As already stated, it runs on the Road Rash 3 engine. It does have (mimic) content of the 3DO/PS1/Saturn game, but certainly not the engine.

 

[NeverYouMind]

As already stated, it runs on the Road Rash 3 engine. It does have (mimic) content of the 3DO/PS1/Saturn game, but certainly not the engine.

Q: Can it play 2-player like Road Rash 3 engine?

A: No it cannot.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Road Rash 3 has cop cars, choppers, greater weapon variety, and 2-player unlike Sega CD garbage. RR3 has none of the downgraded 3DO content either. It is just a shitty makeshift port of next gen version with none of the features of Road Rash 3.



It animates FMVs about as well as PowerPoint as in not really at all.

So we're comparing a game running on the PS 1 now, LOL that it's version had 2 player support either and if we're talking of 3DO Road Rash, I rather play the superior SEGA Saturn version over either the PS 1 or 3DO versions ....

 

[NeverYouMind]

So we're comparing a game running on the PS 1 now, LOL that it's version had 2 player support either and if we're talking of 3DO Road Rash, I rather play the superior SEGA Saturn version over either the PS 1 or 3DO versions ....

PS1 version is a good port of 3DO Road Rash. Sega CD version is a dogshit port of 3DO Road Rash. Fair comparison. Saturn version is a good port of 3DO Road Rash as well.

 

[cireza]

Q: Can it play 2-player like Road Rash 3 engine?

A: No it cannot.

How dumb can you be ?

Golden Axe on SEGA-CD is one player only. But the MegaDrive game is two players. Yet they are the same games and engines.

 

[NeverYouMind]

How dumb can you be ?

Golden Axe on SEGA-CD is one player only. But the MegaDrive game is two players. Yet they are the same games and engines.

How dumb can you be? Golden Axe =/= Road Rash. Sega CD not being able to handle 2-player in a game that has it on the base system says everything about its value.

 

[cireza]

How dumb can you be? Golden Axe =/= Road Rash. Sega CD not being able to handle 2-player in a game that has it on the base system says everything about its value.

I would rather say that it demonstrates that you are clueless. Road Rash on SEGA-CD uses the same engine as the MegaDrive games. It was also hacked exactly like the MegaDrive games for improved framerate. Removing a feature from a game doesn't change its engine.

 

[NeverYouMind]

I would rather say that it demonstrates that you are clueless. Road Rash on SEGA-CD uses the same engine as the MegaDrive games. It was also hacked exactly like the MegaDrive games for improved framerate. Removing a feature from a game doesn't change its engine.

The engine is not the same if it has different features. For example, Unreal Engine 5.0 is not the same as Unreal Engine 5.6. To argue otherwise is absurd.

P.S. Sega CD Road Rash is garbage compared to even the Master System and Game Gear versions. To defend it is equally absurd.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

talk about Saturn or let the thread die.

 

[diffusionx]

Can confirm that the US Pearl Harbor launch came with VF plus you got the privilege to mail in your proof of purchase for VF Remix which finally showed up many months later. And then like a year later they were trying to sell fucking Virtua Fighter Kids and we were like... oh Sega Saturn is just retarded. RIP.

They were trying to sell you Virtua Fighter 2 less than two months later. VF Remix came out on 10/2/95 in the US and VF2 came out 11/30/95.

So 3 Virtua Fighter games in six months (only because Saturn and VF1 launched 3 months early) but no NFL, no Sonic, etc. everything we talked about.

 

[NeverYouMind]

talk about Saturn or let the thread die.

The great tragedy of the Saturn is that most of its best titles never got localized and it was sidelined by early Dreamcast release.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

They were trying to sell you Virtua Fighter 2 less than two months later. VF Remix came out on 10/2/95 in the US and VF2 came out 11/30/95.

So 3 Virtua Fighter games in six months (only because Saturn and VF1 launched 3 months early) but no NFL, no Sonic, etc. everything we talked about.

September 3, 1996 Virtua Fighter Kids
November 21, 1996 Championship Circuit Edition

They wasted a lot of time and money remaking the same * games, they were idiots. It's impressive that they've made it this far. In a just world, they would never have existed as a company.

 

[Mobilemofo]

I thought sega fucked themselves with the 32x mega drive add on. They weren't the same after that. The mega CD add on was a joke. Well, it was in Blackpool anyway.

 

[cireza]

The engine is not the same if it has different features. For example, Unreal Engine 5.0 is not the same as Unreal Engine 5.6. To argue otherwise is absurd.

P.S. Sega CD Road Rash is garbage compared to even the Master System and Game Gear versions. To defend it is equally absurd.

I am not defending Road Rash CD, I don't care about this game.

You haven't a single clue about how these games were developed and their engines though, which was my point.

 

[DonMigs85]

They could have taken Sonic R as a base and made a decent platformer out of it. So many what ifs with the Saturn

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

They could have taken Sonic R as a base and made a decent platformer out of it. So many what ifs with the Saturn

Any solution would need to be by June 1996 and would need to go viral.

 

[NeverYouMind]

They could have taken Sonic R as a base and made a decent platformer out of it. So many what ifs with the Saturn

I have had the same thoughts myself. It seems to only be missing the enemy interaction from later 3D games.

 

[RoboFu]

Sonic R had a great engine. the controls were total shit though. I think dreamcast was the main priority at that point in 1997.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Sonic R had a great engine. the controls were total shit though. I think dreamcast was the main priority at that point in 1997.

That was basically the point in which I decided to sell my Saturn.

Remember playing it in Comet, at first I was blown away, after about 20 minutes I realised I hated it.