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[Dacvak]

That's awesome you got a chance to meet him, I think for Mizuguchi a lot of people don't understand his way of thinking.

He's definitely a visionary kind of guy, like to push the boundaries of the medium in experimental ways.

All it takes is for someone to play Tetris Effect to realize what a genius he is. He's a sleeping giant.

 

[bender]

By the way, if you really want an overlooked deep cut by Mizuguchi, check out Every Extend Extra on PSP, or Every Extend Extra Extreme on X360. Those games are unbelievably fun. Shoutouts to NextTribe on the OSTs.

I don't remember much about EEE or Gunpey, I just kind of hate Lumines and Meteos, but I also hate the likes of Puyo Puyo, Dr. Mario, Columns, or anything that isn't Tetris. I started replaying Child of Eden a few years back via BC on XBX. It has a weird progression system.

 

[Dacvak]

I don't remember much about EEE or Gunpey, I just kind of hate Lumines and Meteos, but I also hate the likes of Puyo Puyo, Dr. Mario, Columns, or anything that isn't Tetris. I started replaying Child of Eden a few years back via BC on XBX. It has a weird progression system.

Lumines and Meteos were more "puzzle game first" games, with Mizuguchi's insanity second. (Though I do like both games)

EEE, Child of Eden, and Rez showcase more of what he's about.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

PS2 is where Atlus was at their peak with Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga 1 + 2, Persona 3 FES and Persona 4. All games exclusive to PS2 at the the time.
Best console in history really, nothing will ever top it.

 

[bender]

Lumines and Meteos were more "puzzle game first" games, with Mizuguchi's insanity second. (Though I do like both games)

EEE, Child of Eden, and Rez showcase more of what he's about.

I'll have to bust out my Qubed disc and give EEE another whirl.

All it takes is for someone to play Tetris Effect to realize what a genius he is. He's a sleeping giant.

I think it's really admirable and more so impressive he's been able to bring the design philosophy forward to this day, especially considering what is considered a success these days. It's similar to why I love Tim Schaffer even if I rarely enjoy Double Fine games.

 

[Instant_Classic]

PS2 is where Atlus was at their peak with Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga 1 + 2, Persona 3 FES and Persona 4. All games exclusive to PS2 at the the time.
Best console in history really, nothing will ever top it.

Yes, Atlus were firing on all cyclinders.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Lumines and Meteos were more "puzzle game first" games, with Mizuguchi's insanity second. (Though I do like both games)

EEE, Child of Eden, and Rez showcase more of what he's about.

Lumines and Meteos are appetizers to the full meals of EEE, Child of Eden, and Rez.

 

[Three]

It's the top 15 out of a list of 250, the sheer variety is crazy and shows how much gaming has changed to be much safer and risk adverse, as time progressed.

https://backloggd.com/u/CriticalCid/list/the-best-sony-playstation-2-ps2-games-top-250?page=1

You can replace every single game there with their new current versions or replacement arcade racers and the variety would be the same. Gaming hasn't changed, you have.

 

[Instant_Classic]

You can replace every single game there with their new current versions or replacement arcade racers and the variety would be the same. Gaming hasn't changed, you have.

You do realize these franchises at the time were new (not older than 10 years), right?

Development times were shorter and games costed a lot less to make, this is a fact.

Gaming has been figured out, since at least 2007 but the resources and cost to develop games have soared astronomically.

We went from getting multiple entries from developers in one generation, to now maybe getting one or none.

Apparently nothing's changed though!

 

[Three]

You do realize these franchises at the time were new, right?

Not really because how can FF 10, GT 4, MGS 3, RE 4, Burnout 3... etc be new franchises at the time? Sure they were younger but these games were not new franchises.

Development times were shorter and games costed a lot less to make, this is a fact.

True but you were talking about variety. You have 2 GTAs there and two MGS. Sure GTA takes years and years now but is it less variety to have GTA5 and GTA6 spaced out like that?

Gaming has been figured out, since at least 2007 but the resources and cost to develop games have soared astronomically.

We went from getting multiple entries from developers in one generation, to now maybe getting one or none.

Apparently nothing's changed though!

I agree, not really arguing against that. Just that you can replace that top 15 with a top 15 this gen and you will lose no "variety", in fact I think the variety is more now.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Not really because how can FF 10, GT 4, MGS 3, RE 4, Burnout 3... etc be new franchises at the time? Sure they were younger but these games were not new franchises.

True but you were talking about variety. You have 2 GTAs there and two MGS. Sure GTA takes years and years now but is it less variety to have GTA5 and GTA6 spaced out like that?

I agree, not really arguing against that. Just that you can replace that top 15 with a top 15 this gen and you will lose no "variety", in fact I think the variety is more now.

Didn't I say the top 15 was subjective?

The link I posted containing the full list of games, would absolutely without a doubt blow away whatever modern list you have in mind.

Scroll down, slowly.

https://backloggd.com/u/CriticalCid/list/the-best-sony-playstation-2-ps2-games-top-250?page=1

Are you going to list things like Silksong, Hades, and Undertale to support your argument?

 

[bender]

You can replace every single game there with their new current versions or replacement arcade racers and the variety would be the same. Gaming hasn't changed, you have.

While the modern indie scene is admirable, it can't replace the PS1/PS2 era of arcade racers and extreme sports games. Having big publishers like EA allowed for the likes of NBA Street which wouldn't be the same without the licenses attached to those properties. And even outside of EA Big, Criterion, and Neversoft you had endless options in those categories that weren't the big names like Aggressive Inline, Rumble Racing, Downhill Domination, etc.

 

[Instant_Classic]

While the modern indie scene is admirable, it can't replace the PS1/PS2 era of arcade racers and extreme sports games. Having big publishers like EA allowed for the likes of NBA Street which wouldn't be the same without the licenses attached to those properties. And even outside of EA Big, you had endless options in those categories that weren't the big names like Aggressive Inline, Rumble Racing, Downhill Domination, etc.

Yeah, there's a huge difference between AAs during the PS1/PS2 eras, and modern indies.

The few (.0001%) indies that touch AAs of the past, are usually pseudo ones like Expedition 33.

 

[nial]

Yeah, Sony dropping this in 1 year today would

People would just go "hurr durr third-party exclusives don't count" lol. See 2024 with FF7 Rebirth, Silent Hill 2 2024, Granblue Fantasy: Relink, etc.
Also, only three Sony games there and others were already multiplatform (like Silent Hill 2 2001).

 

[Instant_Classic]

People would just go "hurr durr third-party exclusives don't count" lol. See 2024 with FF7 Rebirth, Silent Hill 2 2024, Granblue Fantasy: Relink, etc.
Also, only three Sony games there and others were already multiplatform (like Silent Hill 2 2001).

Wrong, many of those games in the 2001 lineup pic were exclusive at the time.

The image explicitly states they were, too.

 

[bender]

Damn, now I want to play Downhill Domination again. nial , please add it to PS Plus Streaming.

 

[nial]

Damn, now I want to play Downhill Domination again. nial , please add it to PS Plus Streaming.

Extermination coming first Bro.

 

[Three]

Didn't I say the top 15 was subjective?

The link I posted containing the full list of games, would absolutely without a doubt blow away whatever modern list you have in mind.

Are you going to list things like Silksong, Hades, and Undertale to support your argument?

I'm just going to leave it there. All lists are subjective. It's clear from your username you have a thing for older 'classics' and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

I wasn't going to name those specifically but they add to todays variety. I believe the games that you listed, and most of that bigger list, can be replaced with todays equivalents, newer games, so GT 4 with GT 7, GTA SA with GTA5, RE4 with RE9, most of the games of that era have equivalents today that offer that same variety but may not be considered "classics" by you. So it's mainly you who has changed and looks back fondly on those older games but for somebody else GT7 or GTA5 might become their "classic" in due time too. Most of the game variety of that era still exists today plus new ones that came about like your Minecrafts, Terraria, Elden Ring, or your Silksong or whatever.

 

[bender]

Extermination coming first Bro.

Damn, now I want to play Extermination again. WTF is SIE doing?

 

[nial]

Wrong, many of those games in the 2001 lineup pic were exclusive at the time.

The image explicitly states they were, too.

SH2 was already out on Xbox less than 3 months in, in the same year lol.

Silent Hill 2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[nial]

Damn, now I want to play Extermination again. WTF is SIE doing?

Holding them hostage.

 

[bender]

SH2 was already out on Xbox less than 3 months in the dame year lol.

Silent Hill 2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Playing SH2 on Xbox was like playing RE4 on the PS2.

 

[nial]

Playing SH2 on Xbox was like playing RE4 on the PS2.

That's how I played RE4, shut your damn mouth.

 

[bender]

That's how I played RE4, shut your damn mouth.

 

[Instant_Classic]

That's how I played RE4, shut your damn mouth.

The GC version was the definitive one, I think.

 

[bender]

The GC version was the definitive one, I think.

It still has effects no other version offers. The RE4 HD project is pretty great though.

 

[Instant_Classic]

It still has effects no other version offers. The RE4 HD project is pretty great though.

Yeah, the RE4 HD project version on PC or the GC version are the best ways to play the OG.

 

[Three]

While the modern indie scene is admirable, it can't replace the PS1/PS2 era of arcade racers and extreme sports games. Having big publishers like EA allowed for the likes of NBA Street which wouldn't be the same without the licenses attached to those properties. And even outside of EA Big, Criterion, and Neversoft you had endless options in those categories that weren't the big names like Aggressive Inline, Rumble Racing, Downhill Domination, etc.

Arcade racers were certainly bigger back then (as were platformers) in terms of popularity but I wouldn't say there is a shortage of variety today either. You have several Forza Horizons, The Crew, NFS: Unbound, Wreckreation, Trackmania, Test Drive Unlimited.

I don't think there is a lack of variety today even if the genre was more popular back then. Same with extreme sports. There is Riders Republic which is like 3-4 exteme sports games in 1 that is todays Downhill Domination. There are equivalents today even if they might not be looked back on with nostalgia. I remember F355 Challenge fondly but I could probably replace it with any number of new games like Assetto Corsa and have the same variety I had back then. I just don't have the same feeling about AC that I did when I played F355 as a kid.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Arcade racers were certainly bigger back then (as were platformers) in terms of popularity but I wouldn't say there is a shortage of variety today either. You have several Forza Horizons, The Crew, NFS: Unbound, Wreckreation, Trackmania, Test Drive Unlimited.

I don't think there is a lack of variety today even if the genre was more popular back then. Same with extreme sports. There is Riders Republic which is like 3-4 exteme sports games in 1 that is todays Downhill Domination. There are equivalents today even if they might not be looked back on with nostalgia. I remember F355 Challenge fondly but I could probably replace it with any number of new games like Assetto Corsa and have the same variety I had back then. I just don't have the same feeling about AC that I did when I played F355 as a kid.

I don't think you realize how miniscule that arcade racing list you posted is, compared to how many racing options there were back then.

Obviously racing games still exists, but there are way fewer options than before.

Also, Riders Republic is Ubisoft's take at an extreme sports title.

List me 5 more extreme sports titles, you know about that are at least AA that have released in the last couple of years or are upcoming.

Obviously games do still exists in various genres, there's just much less.

A lot of this due to the cost and resources need to create games that would be deemed acceptable, in 2026.

 

[bender]

Arcade racers were certainly bigger back then (as were platformers) in terms of popularity but I wouldn't say there is a shortage of variety today either. You have several Forza Horizons, The Crew, NFS: Unbound, Wreckreation, Trackmania, Test Drive Unlimited.

I don't think there is a lack of variety today even if the genre was more popular back then. Same with extreme sports. There is Riders Republic which is like 3-4 exteme sports games in 1 that is todays Downhill Domination. There are equivalents today even if they might not be looked back on with nostalgia. I remember F355 Challenge fondly but I could probably replace it with any number of new games like Assetto Corsa and have the same variety I had back then. I just don't have the same feeling about AC that I did when I played F355 as a kid.

I'd argue the variety just isn't as good as games like Need for Speed and Test Drive were much better back then and a problem with the indie scene is they most often chase those old titles instead of trying to do their own thing and often without the resource to recapture the magic.

I haven't put much time into Riders Republic, all the Ubisoft live service trappings just make me nope out, but I think it's missing key elements that made Downhill Domination, Downhill Domination. I do like Descenders a bunch, but it's doing it's own thing.

 

[Generic]

This is the PS2, and yes a top 15 list is subjective.

However, the sheer variety, impact, and quality of this list on a single console is unmatched.

Remove Okami, Ico (walking simulators) and the Metal Gear games (painful camera and controls)

 

[Signalis]

This is the PS2, and yes a top 15 list is subjective.

However, the sheer variety, impact, and quality of this list on a single console is unmatched.

Not even close.

 

[Instant_Classic]

I'd argue the variety just isn't as good as games like Need for Speed and Test Drive were much better back then and a problem with the indie scene is they most often chase those old titles instead of trying to do their own thing and often without the resource to recapture the magic.

I haven't put much time into Riders Republic, all the Ubisoft live service trappings just make me nope out, but I think it's missing key elements that made Downhill Domination, Downhill Domination. I do like Descenders a bunch, but it's doing it's own thing.

An indie studio making a sports game on the level of SSX3 or NBA Street would be historic.

I have tried indie takes on sports such as BMX, boxing, football, etcetera and they feel like tech demos rather than actual games people would shell out $40 - $60 for.

 

[bender]

An indie studio making a sports game on the level of SSX3 or NBA Street would be historic.

I have tried indie takes on sports such as BMX, boxing, football, etcetera and they feel like tech demos rather than actual games people would shell out $40 - $60 for.

I bought this recently and got really depressed.

I don't want shit on a small dev as it's an impressive effort, but SSX grabbed you from the jump. Thank God SSX3 is BC on Xbox Series.

 

[Three]

Also, Riders Republic is Ubisoft's take at an extreme sports title.

OK?

List me 5 more extreme sports titles, you know about that are at least AA that have released in the last couple of years or are upcoming.

Last couple of years would be tough but you know this. I'd say it might be difficult to name 5 within 2 years from back then even.

Riders republic itself was 2021 so you're purposely making it difficult with that criteria knowing that dev times are longer and games aim to prolong their life now with updates/seasons once they have an audience. The Riders Republic of 2021 isn't the Riders Republic of 2026. It has added skateboarding, motocross, BMX. These would be like a "RR 2", "RR 3" back in the day yet add much more variety. Even then with your criteria you have Session: Skate Sim and Descenders Next that launched pretty recently.

I don't think you realize how miniscule that arcade racing list you posted is, compared to how many racing options there were back then.

It's obviously not the entire list, there are more like Horizon Chase 2 and Tokyo Xtreme. I just don't think the variety was that much more back then especially when most of them were sequels of the same game in quick succession.

 

[Sportler]

Tekken 5?

 

[Soodanim]

I'm just going to leave it there. All lists are subjective. It's clear from your username you have a thing for older 'classics' and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise.

I wasn't going to name those specifically but they add to todays variety. I believe the games that you listed, and most of that bigger list, can be replaced with todays equivalents, newer games, so GT 4 with GT 7, GTA SA with GTA5, RE4 with RE9, most of the games of that era have equivalents today that offer that same variety but may not be considered "classics" by you. So it's mainly you who has changed and looks back fondly on those older games but for somebody else GT7 or GTA5 might become their "classic" in due time too. Most of the game variety of that era still exists today plus new ones that came about like your Minecrafts, Terraria, Elden Ring, or your Silksong or whatever.

I'm not posting to disagree, but some of the modern equivalents are current gen remakes of the games listed and that made me laugh. Replace RE4 with RE4, SH2 with SH2, and MGS3 with MGSD.

I suppose you could argue that the uniqueness of some of the games at that point in time was more impactful for diversity, with the difference to now being that there is more homogenous design as a direct effect of how good those games were. RE4 made that camera style mega popular, for example. And OP does speak of impact. There is merit buried in there, but we all know those gens are still influential.

Ultimately the thread title is (rightly) what people go by, and subjectivity and a question about an objective answer cannot coexist.

Also, this is essentially an slightly modified "Best console library" thread that we've seen hundreds of times over the years, which usually comes down to PS1 or PS2 with the reasoning being that their libraries were hugely influential and diverse. If you're going to mix it up you have to bring something more than a "yes or no" approach because you're just inviting trouble that way.

But from OP's replies I think trouble is what he wanted.

 

[Ellis]

My PS2 list would be;

1. Resident Evil 4
2. Shadow of the Collosus
3. GTA Vice City
4. MGS3
5. Ico
6. Devil May Cry
7. Dark Chronicles (Dark Cloud 2)
8. Onimusha Warlords
9. Gran Turismo 3
10. Fatal Frame 1
11. Burnout Revenge
12. Pro Evo 3
13. OutRun 2
14. Yakuza 2
15. Manhunt

PS1;

1. Resident Evil
2. MGS
3. FF7
4. Tomb Raider
5. Resident Evil 2
6. Tekken 2
7. Silent Hill
8. Rage Racer
9. Tenchu
10. WipeOut 2097
11. Medal of Honour
12. Castlevania SotN
13. Cool Boarders 2
14. Parasite Eve
15. Gran Turismo 2

 

[Banjo64]

Here's my personal list spanning all platforms. Difficult to order them, as they are all God-tier to me. I will divide them in to A-side and B-side though.

A-side
Ocarina of Time
Banjo-Kazooie
Demon's Souls
Dark Souls III
Pokemon Emerald
The Elder Scrolls V
The Witcher 3
BotW / TotK duology

B-side
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
The Last of Us
Goldeneye
Halo 3
Gears of War
GTA San Andreas
PES 6

Mainstream tastes, but these games are classics for a reason.