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[calico]

Gotta hop on my 'game' to do my daily tasks

 

[CowboyLou]

All improving your craft does in the professional world is getting even more work without pay. To get promotions and scale the ladder, you don't improve your craft, you kiss your bosses ass and learn how market yourself (which almost never means being good at X craft)

I'm sorry your job sucks.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'm sorry your job sucks.

Still less miserable than performing daily tasks in the newest GAASlop

 

[Felessan]

And here comes another fundamental misunderstanding of the business bros. Yes, passion can die out as the decades go by, but by the point you become a pro that way, you can only repeat what you did in the past, you stagnate. And like that you create Mindseye instead of a GTA competitor.

Improving yourself have nothing to do with passion. It's as much required for a good crafter driven by efficiency as to a good artist driven by passion.
Actually as a pro I would argue that without passion learning is much more efficient - you know what is needed, what areas to look at and learning is driven by analysis and efficiency and not by emotions and personal preferences.
And Mindseye is what happens when you stop being a pro and switch to being manager without actual ground knowledge

On the other hand, it's impossible to improve your craft or become a pro if there was never any passion to begin with, and there will always be younger people more eager to improve their craft. And thus the entertainment industry continues, producing books even after movies were invented, or making Single Player games even when business bros on the internet insist you can only pay the bills with GaaS nowadays.

Yes, it's impossible to be a pro if you never had a passion as it's long and arduous process and kinda messy at early stages.
But it's so for any profession.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Shareholders and tope execs see Fortnite and other top GAAS games and lick their lips, rub their hands together and froth at the mouth. They envision a constant influx of cash for months or years.

Most games don't make money like this, but because there are a handful, they all think every game should be a GAAS live service game.

The AAA industry is close to dead.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Improving yourself have nothing to do with passion. It's as much required for a good crafter driven by efficiency as to a good artist driven by passion.
Actually as a pro I would argue that without passion learning is much more efficient - you know what is needed, what areas to look at and learning is driven by analysis and efficiency and not by emotions and personal preferences.

And here comes yet another business bro misunderstanding. You're talking about crafts in jobs that require cold, numeric results. Yes, you can get by on pure knowledge, analysis and experience when you're selling food, cars or making city planning that are necessities.

But for things like games? Books? The first and foremost important element of any entertainment product is to be interesting, a person without passion that is only driven by efficiency will never be able to produce anything interesting unless by accident. That efficiency mentality is how "ubisoft games" became an offense for games that are stale, overly formulaic and hand-holdy.

 

[clarky]

Thats exactly what I mean. Gamers just want new thing to consume...

Its no longer about what the product is, how good it is, its lasting impact, as long as they can consume now till next thing to consume. Thats all your modern gamer wants.

Thats why anyone would even bother downloading highguard...

It was literally just "game that released that day" so gamers just followed internet people and consumed.

People downloaded Highguard because it was free and they wanted to check it out.

I don't buy this people just want to consume nonsense. People only play games they enjoy. Look at Highguard numbers now. Clearly the majority didn't enjoy it.

 

[StueyDuck]

People downloaded Highguard because it was free and they wanted to check it out.

I don't buy this people just want to consume nonsense. People only play games they enjoy. Look at Highguard numbers now. Clearly the majority didn't enjoy it.

You literally described people consuming a product just because it exists

 

[clarky]

You literally described people consuming a product just because it exists

No its called trying something out to see if you like it.

To fit your description people would have to keep playing said mediocre game. They are not.

Are People going to "consume" Resident Evil 9 or are they going to try it and then carry on if they like it?

We are all comsumers of videogames, we always have been. Just because you don't find enjoyment in a particular game doesn't mean everybody else must be brain dead.

 

[StueyDuck]

No its called trying something out to see if you like it.

To fit your description people would have to keep playing said mediocre game. They are not.

Are People going to "consume" Resident Evil 9 or are they going to try it and then carry on if they like it?

We are all comsumers of videogames, we always have been. Just because you don't find enjoyment in a particular game doesn't mean everybody else must be brain dead.

Your still describing playing a game just because it exists..

Literally the modern consumer behavior.

 

[CowboyLou]

No its called trying something out to see if you like it.

To fit your description people would have to keep playing said mediocre game. They are not.

Are People going to "consume" Resident Evil 9 or are they going to try it and then carry on if they like it?

We are all comsumers of videogames, we always have been. Just because you don't find enjoyment in a particular game doesn't mean everybody else must be brain dead.

When gamers play a game I think is good = "praise be, the industry is saved"

When gamers play a game I think is bad = "mindless slop consumers"

How some people actually think, apparently

 

[Aressa]

If GaaS sold consoles then Fortnite would come with a free PS5 instead of the other way around.

 

[clarky]

Your still describing playing a game just because it exists..

Literally the modern consumer behavior.

No I'm not. I should have know better.

People play games for enjoyment, nobody plays games just because.

 

[clarky]

When gamers play a game I think is good = "praise be, the industry is saved"

When gamers play a game I think is bad = "mindless slop consumers"

How some people actually think, apparently

Its the classic if I don't like it everyone else is a fucking idiot line.

Some people are sat in an Ivory tower thinking they are Domonic Diamond or some shit.

 

[PeteBull]

Damn, and I believed Men_In_Boxes was the master... he's just the padawan.

 

[StueyDuck]

No I'm not. I should have know better.

People play games for enjoyment, nobody plays games just because.

Mmm hmmm.... yeah.

 

[nkarafo]

Its the classic if I don't like it everyone else is a fucking idiot line.

Some people are sat in an Ivory tower thinking they are Domonic Diamond or some shit.

There's a difference between "i enjoy GAAS games" and "I enjoy GAAS games and SP games shouldn't exist anymore because they don't make business sense". Which is what made me participate in the thread. Otherwise GAAS games don't interest me and it's fine if people enjoy them, i don't care.

 

[clarky]

There's a difference between "i enjoy GAAS games" and "I enjoy GAAS games and SP games shouldn't exist anymore because they don't make business sense". Which is what made me participate in the thread. Otherwise GAAS games don't interest me and it's fine if people enjoy them, i don't care.

I don't agree with that either, there space for all to exist. Although I do get the point that AAA big budget single player games are making less business sense the more development cost keep sky rocketing. If your game cost north of 200 million plus marketing then its a tough sell to investors, unless its an established IP or backed by one of the big players. GAAS not so much as the ROI has the potential to be much much higher. Both are very risky investments.

 

[Felessan]

And here comes yet another business bro misunderstanding. You're talking about crafts in jobs that require cold, numeric results. Yes, you can get by on pure knowledge, analysis and experience when you're selling food, cars or making city planning that are necessities.

You are trying to put divisive line when there is no
Even professions that are all-in into soft skills and where dependency on "human perception" are much higher than second-hand transition of media, they still put down to "cold, numeric results" on pro levels
A lot of parts of emotional response of humans are studied, refined and applied as a tools to improve performance. Cynical but very pragmatic and effective.

But for things like games? Books? The first and foremost important element of any entertainment product is to be interesting, a person without passion that is only driven by efficiency will never be able to produce anything interesting unless by accident. That efficiency mentality is how "ubisoft games" became an offense for games that are stale, overly formulaic and hand-holdy.

Films and ~series~ long ago proven that media can be written to target and writer's personal creativity doesn't mean much
People vastly overestimate "creative" and underestimate "craft" parts of modern mass media entertainment

 

[Instant_Classic]

They have one of the games in the top 10 you posted and are all in on GaaS. It should be impossible for Ubisoft to fail.

You would think so, Ubi does have an insane amount of employees and tends to juggle multiple projects at once.

That will eat up whatever money R6 is bringing in.

Without R6 Siege, who knows where they would be right now.

Most of their games single or multiple player have not provided sufficient returns.

 

[Clear]

The industry runs on money, so whatever generates, or has the potential to generate, the most money is king.

Basic.

 

[Guilty_AI]

A lot of parts of emotional response of humans are studied, refined and applied as a tools to improve performance. Cynical but very pragmatic and effective.

On areas that require simple, limited, objective results you mean. There is a world of difference between making a game or book enjoyable vs making a check option opt-in or opt-out in a formulary.

Films and ~series~ long ago proven that media can be written to target and writer's personal creativity doesn't mean much

And the result is a whole bunch of "targeted" films and series from "can't fail" franchises slowly losing audience over the years until they became jokes of their former selves and complete box office flops.

People vastly overestimate "creative" and underestimate "craft" parts of modern mass media entertainment

Creativity, passion and craft are all intertwined. Craft without creativity and passion is just reproduction, copying what worked before. It's how you get stale formulas like the "ubisoft-like" games that, deservingly, get shit.

You need passion to get refinement, and you need creativity for innovation. Take these two out of the equation and all you'll get is a game industry that eternally tries to copy fortnite. And, unsurprisingly to anyone but business bros, fails when it does.

 

[Instant_Classic]

Thats exactly what I mean. Gamers just want new thing to consume...

Its no longer about what the product is, how good it is, its lasting impact, as long as they can consume now till next thing to consume. Thats all your modern gamer wants.

Thats why anyone would even bother downloading highguard...

It was literally just "game that released that day" so gamers just followed internet people and consumed.

Isn't that the direction society as gone?

This is just not exclusive to gaming.

 

[Instant_Classic]

All improving your craft does in the professional world is getting even more work without pay. To get promotions and scale the ladder, you don't improve your craft, you kiss your bosses ass and learn how market yourself (which almost never means being good at X craft)

You do have a point.

 

[CowboyLou]

Isn't that the direction society as gone?

This is just not exclusive to gaming.

That guy's just making nothingburger statements and trying to pass it off as some kind of deep observation.

 

[Instant_Classic]

And here comes yet another business bro misunderstanding. You're talking about crafts in jobs that require cold, numeric results. Yes, you can get by on pure knowledge, analysis and experience when you're selling food, cars or making city planning that are necessities.

But for things like games? Books? The first and foremost important element of any entertainment product is to be interesting, a person without passion that is only driven by efficiency will never be able to produce anything interesting unless by accident. That efficiency mentality is how "ubisoft games" became an offense for games that are stale, overly formulaic and hand-holdy.

Felessan isn't wrong, what he said is how are you achieve successful outcomes on a project or professionally.

Typically speaking

 

[StueyDuck]

Isn't that the direction society as gone?

This is just not exclusive to gaming.

Absolutely, although I'd say there are still some old-school holdouts in other arts due to the nature of their age.

Where gaming is in its infancy, you feel the biggest impact from it because it's such a sudden shift of all the tides in one direction.

 

[buenoblue]

Gaming as I know.and love it is definitely dying. That's why this year I'm gonna buy as many single player games day one as I can before it's to late

 

[Guilty_AI]

Felessan isn't wrong, what he said is how are you achieve successful outcomes on a project or professionally.

Typically speaking

What i'm saying is that entertainment has some 'rules' that are fundamentally different from other areas. Those rules are why so many people believe obtaining success in entertainment involves luck.

You can't approach game development the same way you'd approach car manufacturing, and many companies are bleeding right now because they tried to do just that. The mentality of 'everything has to be GaaS' falls right into that hole.

 

[Felessan]

On areas that require simple, limited, objective results you mean. There is a world of difference between making a game or book enjoyable vs making a check option opt-in or opt-out in a formulary.

No, checklists are not communication. And that stuff is cheap
The more "expensive" stuff is, the more people want stability and control in it, as those "creative junkies" produce shit 99% of time. So stuff like high-level sales (not you door salesman but rather M&A), negotiations etc have a lot of best practices and people actually practice a lot to acquire ~skills~ and hard-trained skills are craft and not creativity.

And the result is a whole bunch of "targeted" films and series from "can't fail" franchises slowly losing audience over the years until they became jokes of their former selves and complete box office flops.

And many continue to thrive

Creativity, passion and craft are all intertwined. Craft without creativity and passion is just reproduction, copying what worked before. It's how you get stale formulas like the "ubisoft-like" games that, deservingly, get shit.
You need passion to get refinement, and you need creativity for innovation. Take these two out of the equation and all you'll get is a game industry that eternally tries to copy fortnite.

Idealistic bullshit
I am in problem solving business, and as usual with this stuff involving people, especially with power deadlocks, it's often require very "creative" approaches. But for me it's all just experience and skills - I can do all this stuff people use intuitively and calling it "creativity" - options enumeration, deduction, conjuction etc much faster and with greater control and stability - for me they are just trained skill and not some random heaven's blessing. As a result I can solve more complex problems much faster than "passionate and creative" greenhorns. And I have no passion for work, I work for money and for ambitions of mine.

And, unsurprisingly to anyone but business bros, fails when it does.

Tell it to Tencent and Netease who easily copypaste their business processes to create successful gaas - just as work-for-hire they did diablo immortal, cod mobile, marvel rivals, delta forces

 

[Instant_Classic]

The industry runs on money, so whatever generates, or has the potential to generate, the most money is king.

Basic.

Exactly, it is basic.

For whatever reason some people here want to argue this.

The industry craves profits, and GaaS is the current model to aim for on the pursuit of riches.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Idealistic bullshit
I am in problem solving business, and as usual with this stuff involving people, especially with power deadlocks, it's often require very "creative" approaches. But for me it's all just experience and skills - I can do all this stuff people use intuitively and calling it "creativity" - options enumeration, deduction, conjuction etc much faster and with greater control and stability - for me they are just trained skill and not some random heaven's blessing. As a result I can solve more complex problems much faster than "passionate and creative" greenhorns. And I have no passion for work, I work for money and for ambitions of mine.

Idealistic is thinking your very particular set of skills and experience will somehow work in completely different areas from the one you're used to. Being a great Formula 1 driver doesn't suddenly mean you'd do a great boat racer just because they both involve racing.

Tell it to Tencent and Netease who easily copypaste their business processes to create successful gaas - just as work-for-hire they did diablo immortal, cod mobile, marvel rivals, delta forces

Tencent is the owner of WeChat, they are basically chinese Meta, similarly NetEase also made their fortune with internet services. Both have shittons of money and actually invest in all sorts of games, both in-house development or external, often giving away creativity freedom, with their share of failures. For tencent, you'll find they even had previously published Kart games, Pet raising games, bomberman clones, all sorts of stuff. They basically shot everywhere in the mid-2000s while benefiting from a still infant chinese market, started making fuck-you money with WeChat, then expanded this "shoot everywhere until it hits" approach to the entire world as they had more than enough money to afford it.

A great strategy if you are Amazon, though even them apparently didn't find much success simply for arriving too late in the market, unlike those two.

 

[dDoc]

The enshittifation of the games industry - GaaS.

Youngsters gravitate towards GaaS cause of the lower cost of entry. I wonder how the newer generations will fare with today's economic struggles.

And like someone has already said, GaaS covers a specific segment of player. There is room for other game types besides GaaS in the market. You like GaaS, play GaaS. I will partake in the better part of gaming thank you very much.

 

[Mengy]

Exactly, it is basic.

For whatever reason some people here want to argue this.

The industry craves profits, and GaaS is the current model to aim for on the pursuit of riches.

This might be true for AAA, but gaming is much more than just AAA. There will always be indie games, games developed for the love of gaming more than maximum profits. In fact, over time as game dev gets more convenient, a larger market share of games will be indie or small games rather than AAA. Sure AAA might make more money overall, but that doesn't equate to indie or small dev games not making any profit at all.

Its not as black and white as you insists it is.

 

[EN250]

Yes GaaS is high risk gambling, but the pays off set you up for fortune.

You only need to win once.

If that were true, you wouldn't have Bungie fumbling up so bad they had to kill all their projects besides Marathon and D2 Support, if that were true Overwatch 2 shouldn't need to exist and end up failing to repeat the same success as the first one

GAAS is a money pit, when you make it you don't get to cashout and have to keep supporting the game till it loses its relevance to the next new big gaas game that will repeat the cycle and so on...

 

[RAY6077]

i just hope single player games dont die

 

[Instant_Classic]

This might be true for AAA, but gaming is much more than just AAA. There will always be indie games, games developed for the love of gaming more than maximum profits. In fact, over time as game dev gets more convenient, a larger market share of games will be indie or small games rather than AAA. Sure AAA might make more money overall, but that doesn't equate to indie or small dev games not making any profit at all.

Its not as black and white as you insists it is.

It's not as black and white, however to think companies like Guerilla Games, EA, or Ubisoft won't pursue these industries until they win, is wishful thinking.

The idea of one game, being able to sustain a company for years is the dream.

An understandable and desirable dream.