Support NeoGAF

[Buggy Loop]

Nintendo also has other projects.

And they have a platform to hold on their shoulders. Many have doubted they would survive all those years.

DF is behaving like dead weight.

They don't have a platform to hold on their shoulders.

Look, had they remained independent, nobody would be in this thread. This is just peoples setting unrealistic expectations on a studio that always did their own thing to somehow keep Microsoft afloat. Unrealistic. I doubt Microsoft bought them for this reason.

Keepers and Kiln would have performed likely much better on a Nintendo platform.

If you're looking at it as one game in Microsoft's portfolio, it doesn't matter. But even with Nintendo, we hold individual studios accountable; if Retro Studios had gone from DK and Metroid to just Kiln with this much time lapse, we'd be docking points and mocking them.

Keeper is not factored here? Why are you so triggered by Kiln?

Also Retro took from 2014 Tropical Freeze to 2023 Metroid Prime remastered. 2 games in 9 years

Double fine before MS buyout went from Broken Age 2014 to 2021 Psychonauts 2 had 14 games in 7 years.

We have no idea what they are cooking ffs. We have no concept of how the ressources are split. Peoples thinking that Keepers and Kiln was all there is, when Tim Schafer said there's multiple projects are not keeping up.

 

[rkofan87]

Ah yes, "the" reply



buddy, go look at CCUs of those games.

Here is the steam point and click adventure page curated by fans

Steam Curator: The Adventure Library

Point and Click (pnc) Adventure Games

store.steampowered.com

Best of 2025

Best of 2024

Best of 2023

Best of 2022

Etc

You won't find a game in there with high CCU nothing you would not find demigod not laugh at any CCU thread if it was an Xbox game

Ah yes, "the" reply



buddy, go look at CCUs of those games.

Here is the steam point and click adventure page curated by fans

Steam Curator: The Adventure Library

Point and Click (pnc) Adventure Games

store.steampowered.com

Best of 2025

Best of 2024

Best of 2023

Best of 2022

Etc

You won't find a game in there with high CCU nothing you would not find demigod not laugh at any CCU thread if it was an Xbox game

the CCU does not matter on a single player Point click game it's about the reviews and the reception of the game

 

[Buggy Loop]

the CCU does not matter on a single player Point click game it's about the reviews and the reception of the game

So Keepers is fine then by your argument

 

[coffinbirth]

Those people can claim whatever they like but when the numbers don't show for one game but show for others it's clear the game didn't sell on steam. You said



If it's low because steam users haven't heard of it then that is a problem itself showing GP didn't help with discovery or people didn't care about the game at all either way. Tango suffered despite doing better with HiFi Rush. You couldn't really claim "but it's a gamepass-assed game".

Hey, a game most people didn't care about, didn't sell well, but was simultaneously part of a rental service that doesn't have tracked metrics? And you don't think that heavily skewers the numbers? LOL. LMAO, even.

Hi-Fi Rush was a GOOD game that had a vocal fanbase. Not a pottery brawling alt game that no-one gives two fucks about. Kiln is the kind of title that only gets greenlit by Microsoft as subscription filler slop to have a metric for the quarter.

Also Hi-Fi Rush is a $30 & $40 game, not $20.

Thinking that massive amounts of people aren't trying before buying questionable games is an interesting take.

 

[rkofan87]

So Keepers is fine then by your argument

I would love to try keeper out but it's not on Playstation I don't want to play on Xbox.
and the reason keeper died was Microsoft sending out to die not because the fans didn't want it

 

[demigod]

Thinking that massive amounts of people aren't trying before buying questionable games is an interesting take.

Sure thing Phil.

 

[rkofan87]

Making shitty games that bomb is now an "audience" problem? The fuck did I just read?

right???
Buggy Loop is out to lunch with that take.

 

[coffinbirth]

Sure thing Phil.

Unless you think Phil is out here bashing shitty GamePass slop, maybe re-read those words.

 

[Lorianus]

These threads always devolve into " american GAF trying to convince western european GAF that unions somehow are le bad", unfiltered culture war bullshit.

 

[demigod]

Unless you think Phil is out here bashing shitty GamePass slop, maybe re-read those words.

Gamepass games do not lead to sales like you are suggesting.

 

[BlackTron]

And they have a platform to hold on their shoulders. Many have doubted they would survive all those years.

You're the one who brought up Nintendo. But now that I have a counter, Nintendo is some sort of false equivalence that doesn't count for this comparison. Why did you invoke it in the first place then, lol. I get it man, agree to disagree.

I'm not saying anything is BAD about making games like Kiln (or Keeper), but bringing that and then unionizing? Microsoft does not need you that badly.

 

[Signalis]

 

[Buggy Loop]

right???
Buggy Loop is out to lunch with that take.

Being ally with demigod is laughable. He'll just laugh emoji his way cowardly through all arguments. He's a weak ass bitch behind the curtain.

While we have no idea how these games performed on Xbox side due to the whole gamepass spaghetti (and PC gamepass impacting Steam sales too), but you wanted to try Keeper but can't. The game would likely have a bigger audience on Nintendo platform too. Now if Double Fine is not given the chance to expand their quirky games beyond Xbox while Microsoft allowed almost every studios to port their games elsewhere, Microsoft is putting a leash on an indie art house-like studio for no reasons. If Double Fine somehow flops on Xbox and they were not allowed to go to more platforms, it's Microsoft's stupid ass decision.

Doesn't change my opinion that the audience fucking suck in general. It's beyond Double Fine.
You called out point and click adventures, it's fucking depressing to see the CCUs of those games dude, thanks for the depression this morning. Sony side, Astrobot selling what, ~3M units? That's disappointing for me too. It should be doing way better. Bloodborne remaster being considered an assured flop internally? WTF is that? Disappointments all around with "gamers". Young peoples are too busy playing COD on Xbox and on PC being chased by pedos in Roblox or something but I'm not impressed with so many genres "dying". Wanting Double Fine to change what they've always been is not the solution.

You're the one who brought up Nintendo. But now that I have a counter, Nintendo is some sort of false equivalence that doesn't count for this comparison. Why did you invoke it in the first place then, lol. I get it man, agree to disagree.

I'm not saying anything is BAD about making games like Kiln (or Keeper), but bringing that and then unionizing? Microsoft does not need you that badly.

Nintendo had exploratory studios making weird shit, always. Why does anyone think that Microsoft does not consider Double Fine just that?

Like I don't know what microsoft will do with this whole union thing, but calling double fine games garbage and so on is fucking disgusting coming from an hardcore forum.

 

[coffinbirth]

Gamepass games do not lead to sales like you are suggesting.

I'm saying the EXACT opposite for this game, genius.
I'm saying people tried it out and decided not to buy it...because it sucks.
That's a pretty big part of the GamePass equation.

 

[BlackTron]

Nintendo had exploratory studios making weird shit, always. Why does anyone think that Microsoft does not consider Double Fine just that?

Like I don't know what microsoft will do with this whole union thing, but calling double fine games garbage and so on is fucking disgusting coming from an hardcore forum.

And if an exploratory Nintendo studio that made weird shit that hardly sold anything unionized, we would laugh.

 

[rkofan87]

i do not know who is more out to lunch Buggy Loop or Men_in_Boxes lamo.

 

[KungFucius]

It's an audience problem?

It's fine to make quirky things, but it's still a product, if people don't buy it, the studio can't keep existing, it's not charity.

What about Gamepass? A small game that gets played on Gamepass counts for something. I enjoyed keeper. I like having decent games that only take a few hours available.

Not sure about Kiln. Doesn't really look like something I will try.

 

[Three]

I'm saying the EXACT opposite for this game, genius.
I'm saying people tried it out and decided not to buy it...because it sucks.
That's a pretty big part of the GamePass equation.

So let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

You called streetsofbeige retarded:

Gotta love the fucking retards posting Steam CCU numbers for a goddamned Gamepass game.

Because you agree with him that the games were junk/sucked and nobody cared about them?

He said they sucked and few cared about the games they made:

They rank so low on charts, in order to see them in the big master charts you have to sign in to see the full charts. If you dont they dont even show up because their CCU is so low.

So why are you bringing up gamepass in the first place in response to that, are you saying they could have fooled people into buying it if they didn't know how much it sucked? Why does that make StreetsofBeige retarded for posting CCUs and stating that there was very little interest in their "arthouse junk". I don't get it

 

[Ssech]

I'm (almost) always pro-Union, but I have concerns that DoubleFine doesn't hold the kind of value that lets them unionize without simply being shit-canned wholesale. Best of luck to them!

 

[corgiix3]

If they really gave a shit about being successful they woudnt be making games about a lighthouse or a jar. If I was MS I would pull the plug yesterday

 

[Astray]

Brutal thread for no reason. It's crazy how fast people turned on Double Fine and unions. From unions and Double Fine games being amazing during acquisitions to "who needs those useless things". I guess it really is over when thats what accounts are pushing now.

As much as it pains me I can't disagree with that nowadays. During acquisition it was Psychonauts 2 release though. Even in the Keeper threads there was still mostly positivity towards DF. Same with unions during ABK acquisition. Now in this thread it's a complete 180 and all those things apparently suck. Might suggest something is happening if the usual accounts are not championing that stuff anymore.

I don't mean anybody specifically but a lot of people seem to have sort of turned on Double fine and the idea of unions in the thread. I would have though it would be a little more supportive of them forming a union and hoping they're not in trouble. Seems to be kind of the opposite though.

Unions in general are kind of a touchy subject here on GAF so not shocked. The only time they were well-liked on here is when the ABK deal needed them to happen.

But Doublefine feels like it really miscalculated with its latest two projects, I feel that nothing connected with audiences at all (even by indie standards).

I personally loved Psychonauts 2 (one of my favorite games of the generation, almost got the full achievements too), and I didn't really ask for 3, but it was a massive disappointment to see them essentially going backwards from there, gameplay-wise.

Peoples in this very thread asked for Double Fine to do point and clicks, will it be a surprise to you when I say that the audience didn't show up? The genre was dead, dead Jim. Double fine took the risk of reviving it with kickstarter. It didn't do spectacular numbers like at all. Not in the sense that peoples in this thread are complaining that double fine is not a big hitter

Funnily enough Point and Click games are having a renaissance of sorts rn lol.

 

[simpatico]

I bet a lot of gaffer's opinion on unions have changed as their data went from theoretical to lived experience. I know mine did. Double Fine is if nothing else consistent. I wish them no ill will. I wonder if Microsoft has some internal metric for measuring GamePass value that they're privy to that makes DoubleFine think they're being screwed. Based on how popular I perceive their games to be, I think they're lucky to have comfy Microsoft office space and might be better served not rocking the boat.

That's where my chide remarks come from.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'm (almost) always pro-Union, but I have concerns that DoubleFine doesn't hold the kind of value that lets them unionize without simply being shit-canned wholesale. Best of luck to them!

For me I'm the opposite. And that's ok we got different opinions.

Only time I'm pro-union is if there's some kind of abuse going on like the employer is scamming workers underpaying them or not paying them at all, safety issues, anything illegal as per government policies etc.... whatever scummy tactics taking advantage of workers.

But when it comes to something involving highly paid office workers whose work adds so little value, that's not an abuse issue. And I dont get a sense there's safety issues or MS/DF doing anything illegal either. That's simply poor work. And even the biggest pro-union person can tell they are just doing it as a last minute tactic to save their jobs at the expense of the company wising up and potentially getting rid of them.

It's no different then a person on the firing line (I've seen it first hand) who claimed sexual abuse at the office. When that happens you cant fire them and have to go through the whole investigation which can take months. But good news. The findings were she was full of shit and after it was all settled she was fired for real. It was a stupid event and many good innocent people had to be dragged into it even if they werent the two people directly involved. Imagine youre sitting there one day working and HR asks you about a situation and what youve seen or heard about it. This thing will affect you too even if youre a bystander being asked to help out.

In terms of gaming, I dont see how it can even be that hard to drum up some sales. It's got MS/DF backing and so-called legendary Tim Schaefer leading the charge. If lots of indie games from no-name studios can sells lots of copies, it shows the products they make are so unappealing even some dude who made the millionth version of solitaire or chess for $5 has probably more copies sold.

Lucky for DF, MS bought them long time ago and has billions to float the boat. But imagine you lead a tech company who doesnt do great. Some years youre company even loses money. And you got a studio with 100 people like DF making games that can sell so low their peak CCU on Steam is less than 200 gamers.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

I know others have already said this but this isn't a studio that should be pushing buttons. I am all for unions but when you are a studio that probably brings in virtually no profit what makes them think they won't just get shut down completely?

 

[OGM_Madness]

To be fair, Kiln wasn't a big project for them. In one of those "project fortnights" in YouTube or whatever they are called, they made a prototype of this and it was a hit internally. Pretty sure it was a passion project that was good enough to push out to release, but whatever they are working on next is still being worked on.

It is however telling that Psychonauts 2 came out almost 5 years ago (yes, I checked… damn) and still nothing about a new Psychonauts 3 or a Brutal Legend-sized game from them coming out. They must be working on something, right?

 

[Magic-DEI-Hire]

The DEI hires must be protected

Spoiler

</s>

In all seriousness, them unionizing will probably put them first on the chopping block at Microsoft.

 

[NickFire]

Did they really list worker quality of life as the third thing they seek to protect? Did I read that right?

 

[demigod]

I'm saying the EXACT opposite for this game, genius.
I'm saying people tried it out and decided not to buy it...because it sucks.
That's a pretty big part of the GamePass equation.

And im telling you again, gamepass does NOT increase sales. It's not a demo "try before you buy".

 

[demigod]

Being ally with demigod is laughable. He'll just laugh emoji his way cowardly through all arguments. He's a weak ass bitch behind the curtain.

While we have no idea how these games performed on Xbox side due to the whole gamepass spaghetti (and PC gamepass impacting Steam sales too), but you wanted to try Keeper but can't. The game would likely have a bigger audience on Nintendo platform too. Now if Double Fine is not given the chance to expand their quirky games beyond Xbox while Microsoft allowed almost every studios to port their games elsewhere, Microsoft is putting a leash on an indie art house-like studio for no reasons. If Double Fine somehow flops on Xbox and they were not allowed to go to more platforms, it's Microsoft's stupid ass decision.

Doesn't change my opinion that the audience fucking suck in general. It's beyond Double Fine.
You called out point and click adventures, it's fucking depressing to see the CCUs of those games dude, thanks for the depression this morning. Sony side, Astrobot selling what, ~3M units? That's disappointing for me too. It should be doing way better. Bloodborne remaster being considered an assured flop internally? WTF is that? Disappointments all around with "gamers". Young peoples are too busy playing COD on Xbox and on PC being chased by pedos in Roblox or something but I'm not impressed with so many genres "dying". Wanting Double Fine to change what they've always been is not the solution.



Nintendo had exploratory studios making weird shit, always. Why does anyone think that Microsoft does not consider Double Fine just that?

Like I don't know what microsoft will do with this whole union thing, but calling double fine games garbage and so on is fucking disgusting coming from an hardcore forum.

Your argument was weak so i didnt bother. You have no proof that Keeper sold 20k. Hilarious calling me a weakass bitch behind the curtain, says the guy hiding behind a browser talking shit about another man's wife's looks.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Your argument was weak so i didnt bother. You have no proof that Keeper sold 20k. Hilarious calling me a weakass bitch behind the curtain, says the guy hiding behind a browser talking shit about another man's wife's looks.

That's your counter?

SteamDB is as best as we have you moron. Been used extensively in all those CCU threads where you yourself was probably trolling. I didn't pick the highest as there's always a prediction that sticks out. You without any fucking data calling out that it's impossible to have sold 20k is fucking laughable. You see this shit adamsapple ? Little demigod here has zero, zilch, fucking nada information

You can't even make arguments. Never did. You just stop replying and then inundate posts with laughing emojis.

 

[Horatius]

double fine is unionizing

more like

double fine is being shut down in 10~ months

 

[demigod]

That's your counter?

SteamDB is as best as we have you moron. Been used extensively in all those CCU threads where you yourself was probably trolling. I didn't pick the highest as there's always a prediction that sticks out. You without any fucking data calling out that it's impossible to have sold 20k is fucking laughable. You see this shit adamsapple ? Little demigod here has zero, zilch, fucking nada information

You can't even make arguments. Never did. You just stop replying and then inundate posts with laughing emojis.

Ok, so screenshot the 20k.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Ok, so screenshot the 20k.

You can't look on steamDB? Are you inept? Do I have to guide you or you can scroll a website like a grown man?

 

[demigod]

You can't look on steamDB? Are you inept? Do I have to guide you or you can scroll a website like a grown man?

Strange how you can screenshot one but not the other.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Strange how you can screenshot one but not the other.

Are you kidding me? Holy shit you're so low energy. You can't even find the info on steamDB lol

You officially lost all CCU discussion credibility

 

[demigod]

Are you kidding me? Holy shit you're so low energy. You can't even find the info on steamDB lol

You officially lost all CCU discussion credibility

So you don't know the difference between CCU and "Owner estimations". Hint, one is not accurate. Now you understand why i didn't respond to your absurd claims.

 

[Buggy Loop]

So you don't know the difference between CCU and "Owner estimations". Hint, one is not accurate. Now you understand why i didn't respond to your absurd claims.

CCU has nothing with number of buyers, it's a point in time where users were logged on at the same time to play it, CCU is only an indicator of GAAS phenomenons or a huge event launch and that's pretty much it. Peoples buying at different days, at different prices, playing st different time zones, at different time of day, different days of the week, etc, makes no sense as a few hours game will not have retention. The owner estimation is the best data we have on NUMBER OF BUYERS and has been used in nearly all CCU threads

Unless devs give the numbers, it's best data you can use. Not CCU, holy shit, can't even believe this was your counter.

Do you think KOTOR sold 5642 copies in all of PC history because it's its CCU?

 

[Cancer]

"...to form a union with CWA to preserve and extend the studio's commitments to creative excellence, diversity and inclusion, and worker quality of life."

What does this even mean?

Even less selling games? More tranny hiring? More slacking by not showing up to the office?

Can some union expert in here translate this please, preferably into normal people language.

 

[demigod]

CCU has nothing with number of buyers, it's a point in time where users were logged on at the same time to play it, CCU is only an indicator of GAAS phenomenons or a huge event launch and that's pretty much it. Peoples buying at different days, at different prices, playing st different time zones, at different time of day, different days of the week, etc, makes no sense as a few hours game will not have retention. The owner estimation is the best data we have on NUMBER OF BUYERS and has been used in nearly all CCU threads

Unless devs give the numbers, it's best data you can use. Not CCU, holy shit, can't even believe this was your counter.

Do you think KOTOR sold 5642 copies in all of PC history because it's its CCU?

Where did I say CCU was the number of buyers? Go back and reread what I said and use that little brain of yours to figure it out.

Bro wrote an essay making up lies, hilarious.

 

[coffinbirth]

And im telling you again, gamepass does NOT increase sales. It's not a demo "try before you buy".

I'm not saying it does. In this instance, trying it out led to me not buying it.
But I am EXACTLY saying, for me, and many others we try out games before we buy them.
Is English not your first language or something, because I've already said this.

You cannot possibly be obtuse enough to think that GamePass doesn't help filter purchase decisions. It is ABSOLUTELY a try before you buy, or not, tool for many people. You'd be retarded to think it isn't.

There are countless games I've tried on GamePass and bought on Steam or physically on consoles, and there are 5x more that I either played on GamePass and promptly deleted or completed and moved on without a need/desire for purchase, and I've heard the same thing here on NeoGaf from countless others. All of this is called anecdotal evidence, but you are kinda just parroting erroneous nonsense that is clearly not true.

This is sounding more and more like braindead console warring than anything constructive out of you.

 

[Buggy Loop]

This is sounding more and more like braindead console warring than anything constructive out of you.

It's always what he does

Where did I say CCU was the number of buyers? Go back and reread what I said and use that little brain of yours to figure it out.

Bro wrote an essay making up lies, hilarious.

Oh I'm sorry, how should I have interpreted that an owner estimation is not the owner estimation? Wether a number is real data captured by steam or the other algos to estimate, only the OWNER ESTIMATION is the tool we have for a ballpark. And its been accurate enough throughout the years. You're dumb to even try to deflect that it's not 20k because of the CCU. Stop wasting my time dude, you're better back behind the curtain with laughing emojis than any actual argument in replies. The weakest counters I've seen. The James Sawyer Ford school of thought is strong in you.

 

[demigod]

It's always what he does




Oh I'm sorry, how should I have interpreted that an owner estimation is not the owner estimation? Wether a number is real data captured by steam or the other algos to estimate, only the OWNER ESTIMATION is the tool we have for a ballpark. And its been accurate enough throughout the years. You're dumb to even try to deflect that it's not 20k because of the CCU. Stop wasting my time dude, you're better back behind the curtain with laughing emojis than any actual argument in replies. The weakest counters I've seen. The James Sawyer Ford school of thought is strong in you.

It's an estimation, aka a GUESS, it's not accurate. I even highlighted the discrepancies for you but i guess you're too dumb to realize. Keep dreaming if you think Keeper sold 20k.

 

[Buggy Loop]

It's an estimation, aka a GUESS, it's not accurate. I even highlighted the discrepancies for you but i guess you're too dumb to realize. Keep dreaming if you think Keeper sold 20k.

I never said it's not an estimation , and I also said I didn't pick the highest one because there's always a more optimistic

It is still the only tool we have for owner estimation and certainly more accurate for owner estimation than CCU ffs.

Tell me, how many sales it got from CCU then demibrain?

Right, you have nothing

 

[Randall365]

I can see this becoming a cycle - small studio ran well and selling games with happy staff - gets bought up, chewed up and spat out by a behemoth, can't make the games they want, staff have to unionize and then bust. I would not blame the staff here, as I expect there is no way to fulfil Microsoft's expectations.

I like Tim Schafer by the way - he's made some classic games.

 

[Idleyes]

Unions can be beneficial or harmful depending on the circumstances. It always depends on evolving situations.

 

[Roman Empire]

Well, I'm late for the news. But I wish them all the luck in the world. They will need it.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I kind of understand they want to Unionize as they probably see it coming but what doesn't sit well with me is the motivation they put up. Literally the first thing they mention is the protection of creative excellence, diversity and inclusion.

They know, once this ship sails and people are being rated for being actually useful again they will get the boot first.