Support NeoGAF

[Jinzo Prime]

It's better then Skyward. Worse then OoT/MM/TP. Great game. Don't like the artstyle that much. Dungeons were on par with other 3D Classic Zelda games. Skyward Sword is just the last one that had the classic elements Zelda was known for. Wind Waker does all of them better then Skyward IMO

I agree that Wind Waker is better than SS, but I also think it's better than TP. I've been replaying it, and it is so tutorial heavy and doesn't open up until you get the Master Sword. Also, so, so many loading/transition screens, it's crazy.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I still need to give Hyrule Warriors a shot on Switch 2. I never played them because I've never been into musou games (then again I've never played one).

Also regarding TP, for me that one was the last one with the best boss fights. That giant skeleton snake or whatever it is at the Arbiters Grounds when you're bouncing between walls on the spinner was fucking thrilling. How they not ever attempted to top something like that? Or at the very least match it. The Divine Beasts in both newer games do nothing for me whatsoever.

HW Definitive is 60 FPS and can play 1080p natively on S2 in handheld, up from 720p. Very smooth experience. Large roster. STACKED with content.

Many bosses in TP were fun to fight but also had spectacle. Stallord, Morpheel, and Argorok are some of my favorites.

And a Water Temple...that is actually a Water Temple.

TP also has the Spinner.

Jinzo Prime I tend to knock down WW a few points since about 20% of the game is filling out the Sea Chart which takes a bit longer then tutorials in TP.

 

[BlackTron]

More/bigger dungeons is fine and good to do, but I don't agree that BOTW/TOTK departed from the core of Zelda... they restored it more than anything.

All the way back to Wind Waker, the franchise has been a bit broken. I enjoy WW/TP/SS but let me be honest and say that all of them were a huge step down from the former entries. They're slow, constantly annoying story and dialogue everywhere, and they keep trying to give the feeling of open spaces while in fact giving you essentially almost zero freedom.

Amazing that people complain about BOTW's map when the most empty world of all was Wind Waker, a map with so little to offer that it's almost entirely pointless space. And it was followed by two more games that kept piling on the problems, despite nice dungeons.

BOTW was a restoration to the original spirit of the first NES game, after losing its way with the WW/TP/SS sequence.

I agree that each 3D Zelda after OOT was a bit progressively worse until the complete mess that is Skyward Sword.

But a critical piece of the Zelda 1 formula is that the free roaming exploration is rewarded with things you actually want to find...like a dungeon. It rewards you with more game, not another copy/paste variant of the thing you already saw or did.

Without that critical piece of its design, it's a failed return to Zelda 1. A good game that is something else inspired by Zelda 1, but not a return to it.

 

[Tajaz2426]

Playing Crimson Desert, I'd love a realistic feel to a Zelda game, graphically.

It be pretty cool.

 

[Ceadeus]

They should bring back the Spinner. Most fun thing ever and it's only in one game.

Hookshot they should bring back but give it more engaging uses in battle to put space between you and your enemy, use as a gap closer or grab and snatch objects from afar.

The mobility could be improved upon. But then again spacing in combat is pointless if you can just Flurry Rush(this also feels like something you should unlock mid to lategame IMO) a majority of encounters with no drawbacks. Which I think combat at this point in time needs to reworked to be more engaging whether it's back to basics and more about spacing and timing or more modern and plays like a beatemup or fighting game. Phantasy Star Online somehow offers so much more with so much less and Action Adventures like Dragon's Dogma have more depth and more applications for what you can do with the diverse kit of skills/abilities available.

Wouldn't surprise me that if they evolved the combat they would just have Tecmo Koei make the battle system for them and pull from Calamity and Imprisonment.

I also think that some telekinesis or psionics for lifting objects and actors should be a thing ranging from combat application to puzzle solutions if we are looking for new things or gimmicks to play with.

----------

In defense of BotW/TotK the journey to the "dungeons" or enabling access to them is fantastic. It's the dungeons themselves that are the problem. And that a lot of rewards or gear are just in random chests. Most of them pretty lame like 5-20 Rupees and a lame weapon you never care for that could just be a common drop off of the most common enemies.

Ceadeus Yeah I agree I find the music to not be memorable at all outside of the Main Theme. It's good. But if you asked me my favorite music track from BotW/TotK I wouldn't be able to name any of them. New formula is just Zelda: Fallout Edition. I think many would be less oppressive if we had more 3D Zelda games to play but it's been 9 years of BotW once you factor in BotW, TotK, AoC, AoI. It's a bit much.

Lots of quirky memorable characters would also be nice. Another Bombchu bowling alley would also be nice. And a dedicated Fishing Area and some real postgame dungeons.

You are so right about the dungeons being underwhelming. Usually in Zelda, there's the whole pre-dungeon section that builds anticipation for what's coming. The dungeon's theme usually tells the player what to expect. Then the puzzles revolve around the newly acquired item and become more and more complex as you progress through the game, and completing each dungeon feels like finishing an odyssey — something big and meaningful.

There's none of that in BOTW and TOTK. Like you said, the best rewards are often hidden in random chests, while huge puzzle-solving efforts sometimes only give you rupees...

Oh yes, the music too. I can understand the soft, poetic vibe they were going for in both games. But in my opinion, there's no way you can completely leave aside some of the most iconic OSTs in video game history. Imagine playing Castlevania and hearing none of its legendary tracks. Those songs are absolutely part of those worlds ..part of the experience.

 

[Trilobit]

I hope I am not the only one, but Tears of the Kingdom kinda soured me. For me it is not Zelda when you are builiding lego things. It's a physics-based construction simulator and I never asked for that. And also, who thought that weapon degradation is a good idea? Has it ever been fun in a game? I know they tried to fix it in TotK, but the constant need to open your menu and fuse a monster horn to a base weapon because your current sword broke after hitting three enemies is just a chore. The UI and resource management is not good , and I have to gather materials in order to have battery life for my constructions lol.

I liked Breath of the wild and have no problems that they experimentet with it, but sadly the dialed up all the wrong things in the sequel to it. I cannot fanthom how Tears of the Kingdom sits at 96 metacritic. I rather play Skyward sword again over it.

The Lego shit is the worst thing about TotK. I want it completely gone in the next game, together with weapons durability. They should focus on deeper combat mechanics instead. And normal adventuring and exploration. I do not want the old highly linear formula back, but the story should be much more coherent.

 

[ReasonBeing]

I bounced off of every Zelda up until BoTW, literally every Zelda. Zelda BoTW and ToTK are tied for the best gaming experiences I've ever had. I hope they don't follow your advice, for selfish reasons.

 

[Gamer79]

Agreed, I don't even like BOTW much . Prefer classic Zelda

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

But a critical piece of the Zelda 1 formula is that the free roaming exploration is rewarded with things you actually want to find...like a dungeon. It rewards you with more game, not another copy/paste variant of the thing you already saw or did.

Without that critical piece of its design, it's a failed return to Zelda 1.

BOTW was the first of these to actually give you a reward.

What does exploring Hyrule field in TP, the empty and lifeless oceans of WW, or the limited sky area in SS ever give you? This is what they did worst of the entire franchise... all three of these give you almost nothing outside the main line, absolutely pointless worlds to explore at all. Maybe a heart container, rarely anything interesting in the way of a new puzzle or anything.

You imply that somehow BOTW gives you less than Zelda 1, but this is ridiculous. Z1 was a huge part of my childhood, and I recall that the discovery was fairly minimal: the dungeon order can be changed, and you can find a few little caves (or trap doors under random burned trees) to find a bit of rupees. Not much more.

It's just insane to me when people imply BOTW didn't give you rewards for exploring. Were we playing the same game? Just a few of the weird things you can stumble across and end up pursuing, that are not part of the required main line...

- the weird "lord of the mountain" appearing at random times with a glow, and the quest to capture if you want
- Eventide Island, basically an entire little side quest
- the dark forest, a whole game unto itself as well, finding a way through with torches and fire
- the labyrinths, where one of them has a series of passages that leads you underneath to drop into a room filled with guardians aiming at you
- molduga mini-bosses in the desert
- Kilton and obtaining all the monster masks
- entire large hidden areas under Hyrule Castle to explore
- pursuing the dragons and their sequences
- things like the "giant horse" out in the desert you can obtain
- endless little cross-character stories you can uncover by paying attention to characters in towns and their relations

Those are just some off the top of my head... remarkably, there's easily more optional game content in BOTW than in all prior entries combined. It's not even close.... there's not really any concept of optional things on this level in any prior entry. And the shrines are a reward everywhere--even if you find some of them redundant (combat ones), there's a ton of unique puzzles hidden in them across the world. Those gives far more reward than the "maybe at best a short cave with a heart container" standard before these games.

It's so jarringly weird to me to hear someone say there's no exploration reward. The primary joy in these games was built around finding things spontaneously.

 

[Codes 208]

I think Link Between Worlds had the best approach. Classic dungeons but still open world-ish

Playing Crimson Desert, I'd love a realistic feel to a Zelda game, graphically.

It be pretty cool.

I prefer nintendo games sticking to their artstyles than go for realism.

People keep trying to show off what realistic zelda/mario/pokemon games could look like using unreal, but they always look soulless.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Oh yes, the music too. I can understand the soft, poetic vibe they were going for in both games. But in my opinion, there's no way you can completely leave aside some of the most iconic OSTs in video game history. Imagine playing Castlevania and hearing none of its legendary tracks. Those songs are absolutely part of those worlds ..part of the experience.

Give







They also don't make em like they used to

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

I agree with the op.

Never a Zelda mega fan but played link to the past and oot many times. Perfect games especially the snes one.

I tried 15 minutes of botw and when my weapon broke on 3 hits on the first enemy I was like wtf is this shit.
Nah don't want to forever inventory management or carry a million weapons.

Weapon degradation theres no game in the world that it's made a better experience. It exists on mmos simply to drain your money.

 

[Polaris]

Open world Zelda > "Classic" Zelda.
Even with how amazing entries like The Wind Waker, A Link to the Past, and Twilight Princess are, I'd rather play and replay Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom instead.

All I see is people bitching about the new games giving you too much freedom and not enough one-solution puzzles. They give a lot of "my bread is too soft and warm and my steak is too juicy" vibes.

Most people hate BOTW and TOTK because they're proud of being games and for dobling down on that fact. Even more player agency, multiple solutions the devs never even considered, a completely optional main story sans the tutorial and the final boss. If you're complaining about weapon degradation and miss the Pacific Ocean of weapons the games provide, you're unironically playing them wrong.

 

[HRK69]

I got to put this thread on ignore before I get banned

 

[TintoConCasera]

They also don't make em like they used to

Damn that boss battle sure is some top tier Zelda stuff. Cool design and mechanics and very nice use of the dungeon's item.

On the topic of music, just compare:





What were they thinking? It sounds like someone left the office's cat on the loose and it walked over the piano while it was recording.

 

[Variahunter]

BOTW was the first of these to actually give you a reward.

What does exploring Hyrule field in TP, the empty and lifeless oceans of WW, or the limited sky area in SS ever give you? This is what they did worst of the entire franchise... all three of these give you almost nothing outside the main line, absolutely pointless worlds to explore at all. Maybe a heart container, rarely anything interesting in the way of a new puzzle or anything.

You imply that somehow BOTW gives you less than Zelda 1, but this is ridiculous. Z1 was a huge part of my childhood, and I recall that the discovery was fairly minimal: the dungeon order can be changed, and you can find a few little caves (or trap doors under random burned trees) to find a bit of rupees. Not much more.

It's just insane to me when people imply BOTW didn't give you rewards for exploring. Were we playing the same game? Just a few of the weird things you can stumble across and end up pursuing, that are not part of the required main line...

- the weird "lord of the mountain" appearing at random times with a glow, and the quest to capture if you want
- Eventide Island, basically an entire little side quest
- the dark forest, a whole game unto itself as well, finding a way through with torches and fire
- the labyrinths, where one of them has a series of passages that leads you underneath to drop into a room filled with guardians aiming at you
- molduga mini-bosses in the desert
- Kilton and obtaining all the monster masks
- entire large hidden areas under Hyrule Castle to explore
- pursuing the dragons and their sequences
- things like the "giant horse" out in the desert you can obtain
- endless little cross-character stories you can uncover by paying attention to characters in towns and their relations

Those are just some off the top of my head... remarkably, there's easily more optional game content in BOTW than in all prior entries combined. It's not even close.... there's not really any concept of optional things on this level in any prior entry. And the shrines are a reward everywhere--even if you find some of them redundant (combat ones), there's a ton of unique puzzles hidden in them across the world. Those gives far more reward than the "maybe at best a short cave with a heart container" standard before these games.

It's so jarringly weird to me to hear someone say there's no exploration reward. The primary joy in these games was built around finding things spontaneously.

You must not have gotten far in Zelda 1, because you can find all these items in the overworld (not dungeons), courtesy of AI :

"Key Overworld Items and Locations:

• Wooden Sword: Found in a cave at H8 (given by an old man).
• White Sword: Found in a cave at K1 (given by an old man; requires 5 Hearts to wield).
• Magical Sword: Found in a cave at B3 (given by an old man; requires 12 Hearts to wield).
• Power Bracelet: Found at E3 under a statue (used to push rocks and access secret passages).
• Silver Arrows: Found in a cave at A2 (required to defeat Ganon).
  • E4: Near the Blue Ring.
  • P6: Accessible via the Ladder.
  • Hylia Lakeshore: Burn trees to reveal one.
  • Eastern Forest: Burn trees to reveal one.
  • Graveyard: Accessible via the Recorder.

Purchasable Overworld Items:

• Blue Candle: Sold in shops for 60 Rupees (e.g., at O6).
• Red Candle: Found in dungeon D7, but also available in some "Take Any" caves.
• Blue Ring: Sold in shops for 250 Rupees (e.g., at E4).
• Red Ring: Found in dungeon D9 (Overworld access requires completing the game or using glitches/cheats in vanilla).
• Bait: Sold in shops for 60 Rupees (e.g., at E4).
• Arrows: Sold in shops for 80 Rupees (requires the Bow from Dungeon 1).
• Potions: Sold by an old woman (after giving her a Letter from O1) for 40 Rupees (Blue) or 68 Rupees (Red).
• Keys: Sold in shops for 80-100 Rupees.
• Bombs: Sold in shops for 20 Rupees.
• Shields: Sold in shops for 90-160 Rupees."

In Alttp, it's even more useful items :

"Key items include :

• Magic Cape (King's Tomb),
• Pegasus Boots (Sahashrala's Hut)
• Flute (Haunted Grove)
• Magic Mirror (Old Man)
• Book of Mudora is in the Library

Many essential tools and upgrades are located in the overworld rather than dungeons:

• Master Sword is obtained from the pedestal in the Lost Woods
• Tempered Sword found in the Dark World
• Golden Sword found in Pyramid of Power
• Shovel is found in the Haunted Grove,
• Ice Rod is in the Ice Rod Cave
• Cane of Byrna is in the Spike Cave
• Bug-Catching Net is given by a sick kid in Kakariko Village
• Lamp in Link's House
• Bombs, Arrows, and various Rupees are scattered throughout caves, wells, and shops.
• Health Upgrades: Multiple Pieces of Heart are hidden in locations like the Kakariko Well, Blind's Hideout, and various caves (e.g., Mini Moldorm Cave, Hype Cave).
• Quake, Ether and Bombos medallions are found in the Light and Dark World."

Far from a bit of rupees... and actually useful unlike everything you mentionned from BotW, which almost always end up with finding a shrine and knowing the reward in advance, an orb.

 

[MMaRsu]

BOTW sold like 30m copies. Zelda ain't going back outside of remakes / remasters.

Could it have sold as much as a traditional Zelda game? Who is to tell?

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Totk was the best Zelda in 20 years, imo.

Tbh, I would like a totk v2.0.

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

Could it have sold as much as a traditional Zelda game? Who is to tell?

Deep down you know the answer to that. So why ask?

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

You must not have gotten far in Zelda 1, because you can find all these items in the overworld (not dungeons), courtesy of AI :

In the original The Legend of Zelda (Quest 1), the Overworld contains several essential items that are not found in dungeons. These are primarily located in specific caves or purchased from shops.

Key Overworld Items and Locations:

• Wooden Sword: Found in a cave at H8 (given by an old man).
• White Sword: Found in a cave at K1 (given by an old man; requires 5 Hearts to wield).
• Magical Sword: Found in a cave at B3 (given by an old man; requires 12 Hearts to wield).
• Power Bracelet: Found at E3 under a statue (used to push rocks and access secret passages).
• Silver Arrows: Found in a cave at A2 (required to defeat Ganon).
  • E4: Near the Blue Ring.
  • P6: Accessible via the Ladder.
  • Hylia Lakeshore: Burn trees to reveal one.
  • Eastern Forest: Burn trees to reveal one.
  • Graveyard: Accessible via the Recorder.

Purchasable Overworld Items:

• Blue Candle: Sold in shops for 60 Rupees (e.g., at O6).
• Red Candle: Found in dungeon D7, but also available in some "Take Any" caves.
• Blue Ring: Sold in shops for 250 Rupees (e.g., at E4).
• Red Ring: Found in dungeon D9 (Overworld access requires completing the game or using glitches/cheats in vanilla).
• Bait: Sold in shops for 60 Rupees (e.g., at E4).
• Arrows: Sold in shops for 80 Rupees (requires the Bow from Dungeon 1).
• Potions: Sold by an old woman (after giving her a Letter from O1) for 40 Rupees (Blue) or 68 Rupees (Red).
• Keys: Sold in shops for 80-100 Rupees.
• Bombs: Sold in shops for 20 Rupees.
• Shields: Sold in shops for 90-160 Rupees.

Far from a bit of rupees... and actually useful unlike everything you mentionned from BotW, which almost always end up with finding a shrine and knowing the reward in advance, an orb.

I've played to completion at least 5 or 6 times and as a kid I found everything at some point.

First of all, take things like the first sword, or silver arrows off your list obviously -- "required to defeat Ganon" means it's a core sequence item, not an exploratory bonus.

That last list is just shop items. Why list potions and bombs and candles as if these are exploration rewards? If I did that, I"d be listing a hundred armor sets and rare foods and so on for BOTW. Shops having items is hardly an exploration reward. Are you seriously trying to act like shops having candles and bombs is exploration reward over BOTW, which has a ton of costume/armor/elixirs etc to come across? I would have never listed items like that.

If anything, you just underscored that the entire overworld exploration amounts to just a few little extra items, most of which are not extra at all and required to finish the quest. That's hardly "exploration reward," what weird inverted world are you judging games by? Finding an island with its own challenge, a dark forest to explore only by torchlight, a series of mini-dungeons in shrines that have exclusive puzzles, or going through tons of passages and areas under the castle and elsewhere... that is exploration in its greatest form. Not going from ring-level-one to ring-level-two, which is so much less significant than all the armor sets to find in BOTW/TOTK anyway.

I'll never understand one bit of thinking where a person says "oh a shrine, it'll just be an orb, no reason to even explore it." The shrine is the reward, obviously, getting to explore and defeat entirely new areas with their own puzzles and concepts. It's so bizarre to me that anyone judges the point of exploration in terms of mindlessly stupid incremental upgrades like ring+2 instead of actually getting to see and experience new areas, puzzles, labyrinths, caves...

 

[MagiusNecros]

TintoConCasera Like I said. Unmemorable score.

 

[Paltheos]

I got to put this thread on ignore before I get banned

Don't get yourself axed, HRK. I like you.

 

[cartman414]

IMO this is kind of like saying we had the same 2D Mario game for forever. There's no limit to the number of ideas you can express in the level design, enemies, power-ups and bosses without fundamentally changing the IP. World mixed it up quite a bit from 3 with its map screen, in-game powerup bank, Yoshi and saving. But the rules of engagement hadn't changed; if you played 3, you got more Mario levels in World and were unlikely to complain that what makes Mario, Mario had changed.

The inverse example would be Zelda 2. Many people STILL like this game, but it's controversial as a radical departure from the first one. They ended up doubling down on the first game in later installments and that solidified what type of game it is; you could well walk into BOTW hoping for an improved version of that but find a Zelda 2 on your hands. You don't necessarily have to turn the template on its head to make fresh content.

A game with a bigger overworld and physics interactivity but still rewards exploration with things you actually want like fun levels/dungeons to play, retains the core while evolving the game like Mario 3 to World. What they did here was hollow out the core of Zelda and replace it with something else.

"I have all these ideas how to improve Mario...but hear me out. The first thing we do is remove the levels" consider my expectations subverted.

Between sequels, I loved Zelda 2 and was disappointed with Mario World (latter eschewed too much of the platforming challenge of 3).

I'd love a Zelda 2 sequel/remake as another alternate Zelda fork.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

ITT

I can't believe people think adventuring and discovering new puzzles and challenges needs to be rewarded with items.

Literally backwards. The only purpose of items and upgrades in the game is to let you explore more, to reach and see new places!

A stamina upgrade means I can climb to that even higher mountain, to experience things up there I couldn't before. A hearts upgrade means I can take on that Lynel that's blocking me. That's the whole damn point! All items are nothing but a means to an end.

 

[Yesterwynde]

That sounds quite dramatic.

 

[TintoConCasera]

I can't believe people think adventuring and discovering new puzzles and challenges needs to be rewarded with items.

Literally backwards. The only purpose of items and upgrades in the game is to let you explore more, to reach and see new places!

A stamina upgrade means I can climb to that even higher mountain, to experience things up there I couldn't before. A hearts upgrade means I can take on that Lynel that's blocking me. That's the whole damn point! All items are nothing but a means to an end.

An adventure has to have a sense of progress to it. There's way less feeling of progress if you give me all the items (or powers) right from the get go and give me the option to go anywhere I want while all I do is collect heart pieces that I don't really need because I can spam healing items from the menu, or stamina upgrades that while cool for climbing don't really offer anything special like access to new areas that are locked behind a stamina requirement (as far as I remember).

And honestly I'd rather have a small world like the one in OOT or the older 2D games than a vast landmass of nothingness full of samey-looking shrines and koroks. Those gated your progress through items that you needed to progress through them making the game feel more like an adventure rather than the theme-park the modern games are.

 

[Puscifer]

Man I just wish we still had dedicated 2D gameboy systems because those are peak Zelda to me.

I get so lost in Links Awakening, Oracle of Ages/Seasons and Minish Cap. Handhelds need a comback and could help bring back extra creativity and risk missing from gaming.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

It needs to drop the Minecraft type shit like a bad habit, the last thing Zelda should have is building cars, robots etc, that shit is so tonally jarring it's not funny.

It needs to return to feeling a myth legend, fairy tale.

 

[nightfly]

I was never a fan of the "open air" (really stupid term) formula in the first place. I just want good old school Zelda with a few new mechanics thrown in here and there.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

I hope I am not the only one, but Tears of the Kingdom kinda soured me. For me it is not Zelda when you are builiding lego things. It's a physics-based construction simulator and I never asked for that. And also, who thought that weapon degradation is a good idea? Has it ever been fun in a game? I know they tried to fix it in TotK, but the constant need to open your menu and fuse a monster horn to a base weapon because your current sword broke after hitting three enemies is just a chore. The UI and resource management is not good , and I have to gather materials in order to have battery life for my constructions lol.

I liked Breath of the wild and have no problems that they experimentet with it, but sadly the dialed up all the wrong things in the sequel to it. I cannot fanthom how Tears of the Kingdom sits at 96 metacritic. I rather play Skyward sword again over it.

I am 100% with you, OP. BOTW had its merits, but the series has really strayed away from what made Zelda games enjoyable for me. It's something else entirely now.

 

[Variahunter]

First of all, take things like the first sword, or silver arrows off your list obviously -- "required to defeat Ganon" means it's a core sequence item, not an exploratory bonus.

So it's mandatory to explore the overworld, so the items importance is even greater. You're basically proving my point.

You were just saying that there only a « bit of rupees to find », meaning there's no important items to find. Which is very wrong, as you just mentioned…

It's funny that you completely ignore the power bracelet, which is required for story progression, or the upgraded swords, which are very meaningful upgrades in that game.

And you just choose to just ignore Alttp list. How convenient.

And no, a shrine is not a reward. If we think like that, then dungeons are a reward and since the very first game Link shouldn't have any items at all, which destroy the game design of the entire Zelda series.

 

[Krathoon]

The sandbox Zeldas kind of lost what Zelda was about.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

So it's mandatory to explore the overworld, so the items importance is even greater. You're basically proving my point.

It's sequenced. It's a handful of key items you have to get. It's not reward for exploring freely. The freedom comes down to just "the order you do the series of required things" when it should be "exploration decides what things you even see or don't see at all in your game based on your journey."

And no, a shrine is not a reward. If we think like that, then dungeons are a reward and since the very first game Link shouldn't have any items at all, which destroy the game design of the entire Zelda series.

The dungeons are the reward. Getting to go deeper into new dungeons is the point as you progress in the game. Getting some item is meaningless except for how it gradually unlocks places you couldn't get to before.

And it's not just me saying that BOTW actually goes back to the original promise of the series and returns to its lost roots... that's what the developers explicitly said they were doing, and they even built prototypes in NES-ish design first to feel how these systems would fulfill the original NES promise of freedom that was caught by limitations at the time and then lost entirely in the later sequels.

They said exactly that when they showed one of their real internal testing prototypes for BOTW at a game conference.

Literally Nintendo's official take on it, coming from veteran devs who worked on the series for various lengths stretching all the way back:

- the original NES game's promise was the freedom of a vast forest and world of mystery;
- we lost our way over time with predefined sequences of events, everything aligned to story beats and item sequences;
- BOTW was made to fix it and bring back the whole original purpose of the franchise: exploration

Even the legends behind the original, Miyamoto and Tezuka, said that BOTW was a return to the original, above all else. The entire point of it was to go back to the roots at last. They said this over and over, how both of them wanted to nail the experience lost since the first game and not fully able to realize at that time on the hardware.

They're right. There is a reason BOTW's impact on the industry and sales far exceeded everything that came before it.

 

[Effigenius]

If you want the same stuff they always do, play the old games. I like them coming up with new ideas.

 

[Eevee86]

I agree. They never should have went 3d.

 

[Arsic]

OoT remake plz

 

[WellSheet]

The combat was too basic with some bizzarre decisions like an arcaic lockon and no evade button outisde of lock on, the loot was kinda terrible, the enemy variety on the first one was abysmal, shitty boss fights in both except a couple of exceptions, shitty main dungeons (better in the sequel but still not top tier) and easy and repetitive small dungeons, story and charas were pretty meh, shitty, useless horses and questionable traversal methods (skating on a shield that break after 5 mt is not ideal) just to name a few.

I know people dont buy zelda for story or combat but they still ask full price and way older games like darksiders1-2 did combat and story aspects much better, maybe it's time for nintendo to invest in some good combat just for a change, we all know that a truckload of adults buy these games and they are not just for kids (and i doubt small kids hate good combat systems).

The game were also pretty easy when you upgrade your stamina and health a bit and being able to consume stamina and healt food from a menu didnt help at all...

But i like the emphasys on physics and breaking puzzles with unconventional solutions (tokt mostly).

Started playing Darksiders 1 on PS5 today as re-released…ooooh it's still real good

 

[UltimaKilo]

If you want the same stuff they always do, play the old games. I like them coming up with new ideas.

I agree completely. However, I do think they need to give the IP a rest for a while. 2029/2030 seems fine for the next mainline Legend of Zelda, with the exception of remasters and remakes in-between.

 

[Northeastmonk]

It's all about scale with the new Zelda games. The world feels alive, but once you get to your location. Things feel like a hollow tree. It's like they just carved the fabric of whatever you see and turned it into an obstacle course. I had a real good time with both games, but it's all a Mountain View type of experience. I know there's no big dungeon to enter. What kept my momentum going in both games was just running everywhere. There was no single place that I visited that captivated me. It was a race to see the next view from up high.

 

[Gamer79]

Peak Zelda

 

[HallowedFeast]

If you want the same stuff they always do, play the old games. I like them coming up with new ideas.

'New' he says as they release one of the shallowest openworld games ever created, and then follow it up with overpriced DLC disguised as a sequel.

Zelda tourists ruined the franchise.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Both Zelda formulas can exist. And really, there can even be more. I'd love for them to revisit the Zelda 2 formula somehow. Or give us a multiplayer Zelda again. The 3DS multiplayer game was stupid, but tons of fun.

The problem with the classic Zelda formula is that they have to make the puzzles accessible for everyone. As a kid, I had trouble with the puzzles and the dungeons in ALTTP and LA. Several years later, in TP and SS, I could intuit the solution to almost any puzzle almost before getting its full picture. There's a limit to how complex they can make a Zelda game, and that's going to make the games too easy for veteran players.

I personally enjoy both. After the heavily scripted games that preceded it, BOTW felt liberating. And addictive. Severely so. TOTK perfected that by giving you even more freedom.

 

[crackajack]

I liked experimental Zelda in the past, ie even Zelda II was fun, but ever since OoT I just can't bring myself to play them. Majoras Mask was an interesting concept, but I never played a second of it. I hated the boring sailing in Wind Waker and dropped it after a couple of hours. Never played Skyward Sword or the Switch ones because I hate sandboxy stuff.
I guess Gothic also plays a big part in what tone I want in action adventure. Nintendo games feel like only Metroid has a mature tone to it, while everything else needs to be family or kids friendly. With that I am just not their target audience anymore. I would not need glorified violance like God of War but just another tone: less gameplay focused (where much of what I read about it would just annoy me) and rather story and atmosphere focused.

 

[EPG_Every_Platform_Gamer]

i Loved both BOTW and TOTK but agree to a degree they need serious changes. Getting rid of the weapon degradation to start with is a good shout. AWEFULL idea but get why they did it.
I say why cant they give us both, so give us a BOTW style Zelda then a traditional then BOTW then traditional... and so on..
I miss the old classic Zelda formula so bad, the feeling of getting a new upgrade, earning it by mastering a new difficult dungeon and then besting the boss.. was a great mechanic. Also you felt you were learning through the whole game, modern Zelda lacks this feeling.
They need to find a way to give us classic Zelda fans, classic dungeons and boss fights too. Also I didn't enjoy the story delivery method in the new Zelda games, this whole flashbacks thing and having to find more story content was not good at all.

I just want to see what a classic style Zelda built on modern tech could be like, i want a more linear story, with clear mile stones and cutscenes in real time, strong characters and stories. Witcher 3 did this so well with the side quests and main quest, just imaging a new Zelda game built like a Witcher game would be EPIC.
Recently replaying classic Zelda games made me realize how disjointed the BOTW style games really are. Sometimes linear games just FLOW better as have clearly defined goals and milestones it wants you hit.

I feel like Ocarina of time and Twilight Princess had great story and cinematics and want to see this style merge with Witcher 3, imagine how awesome, detailed and big while still intricate classic dungeons could be if made today. I got sick of doing shrines in BOTW and TOTK as felt they lacked creativity, yes some were great
but they didn't require the player to THINK to deep and just when some started to show genius.. they were over.
The upgrades and new weapons or powers issue is also a big one, being given every main power at the beginning of the game without earning them felt cheap and took away the feeling of overcoming a challenge and then being rewarded.

I want them to think outside the box and create some awesome new powers and tools which actually help the player traverse the world or fight etc.
Imagine what they could achieve if the world is smaller and more detailed and hand crafted vs just being big and full of lots of walking. Not saying BOTW or TOTK were just walking, they were not but there was a lot of filler and menial tasks designed to slow you down.
Its a tricky one for sure, and a difficult task for the developers.. But we did lose some core aspects of Zelda when we moved to the BOTW style.
By the end of the games, i felt i just got tired of the games main powers, we needed so much more to keep players interest and keep the world and tools creative.

Like i said, i would much more prefer a smaller more story driven classic Zelda, give us HUGE intricate dungeons with challenging boss fights, give us Hyrule more detailed then we have ever seen it, make it smaller but more hand crafted and FILL IT with interesting characters and things to do and discover.
Make Link start the game as a kid and slowly through the journey and story he gets older.. yes like Ocarina but bigger and better.
I really want the ocarina story retold and expanded on and fleshed out better. The Hyrule warrior games have such awesome combat, i want to see this combat developed into the new Zelda classic game. I want to see new boss fights and monsters just like in Hyrule warriors but expanded on.
Imagine a Zelda game in the Hyrule warriors Engine but with a lot less monsters, detail crammed into every part, graphics which look incredible and running at 60fps.
Hyrule fully fleshed out like a Witcher game and the story being an actual story with cutscenes in engine which is linear and drives the player through the world to tell the original Zelda Story in all its glory. Show us the goddesses and the story of the Tri force but flesh it out.
The story of Ganon, the royal family and links childhood.. flesh it all out.

I miss the sense of progression the most and the structured narrative, a beginning, middle and end, dungeons which were HAARD and took brain power to figure out, a new upgrade and tool at the end of said dungeon after a difficult boss fight..
Absolutely hated looking for memories.. and the story being do disjointed.

Tricky for sure but like i said, maybe they need to give us 2 types of Zelda, rotate between them.. BOTW style and Classic Style.. who knows. Thats my 2 pence.

 

[kunonabi]

More/bigger dungeons is fine and good to do, but I don't agree that BOTW/TOTK departed from the core of Zelda... they restored it more than anything.

All the way back to Wind Waker, the franchise has been a bit broken. I enjoy WW/TP/SS but let me be honest and say that all of them were a huge step down from the former entries. They're slow, constantly annoying story and dialogue everywhere, and they keep trying to give the feeling of open spaces while in fact giving you essentially almost zero freedom.

Amazing that people complain about BOTW's map when the most empty world of all was Wind Waker, a map with so little to offer that it's almost entirely pointless space. And it was followed by two more games that kept piling on the problems, despite nice dungeons.

BOTW was a restoration to the original spirit of the first NES game, after losing its way with the WW/TP/SS sequence.

The original NES game actually had enemy variety, challenge, and worthwhile rewards.

 

[MMaRsu]

Deep down you know the answer to that. So why ask?

I dont tho?

 

[Dr Bass]

Damn that boss battle sure is some top tier Zelda stuff. Cool design and mechanics and very nice use of the dungeon's item.

On the topic of music, just compare:





What were they thinking? It sounds like someone left the office's cat on the loose and it walked over the piano while it was recording.

Bad take. While a Link to the Past has an absolutely classic score (for me it's gotta be top 10 overall for effectiveness in-game) the BotW soundtrack is fantastic for the style of game. When you're potentially exploring the overworld for hours you don't want a tune like the LttP dark world repeating hundreds of times. It would drive you nuts.

The track you're referencing here is very well composed and fits the scenery/setting like a glove. BotW has a great score.