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[Men_in_Boxes]

Give us a Zelda with strong base building and survival elements. A Nintendo does Valheim approach.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

No love for Wind Waker?

I loved that game, but also breaks my heart because it was a very obviously unfinished game. I wish they would go back and properly finish it for subsequent releases.

 

[diffusionx]

IMO this is kind of like saying we had the same 2D Mario game for forever. There's no limit to the number of ideas you can express in the level design, enemies, power-ups and bosses without fundamentally changing the IP. World mixed it up quite a bit from 3 with its map screen, in-game powerup bank, Yoshi and saving. But the rules of engagement hadn't changed; if you played 3, you got more Mario levels in World and were unlikely to complain that what makes Mario, Mario had changed.

The inverse example would be Zelda 2. Many people STILL like this game, but it's controversial as a radical departure from the first one. They ended up doubling down on the first game in later installments and that solidified what type of game it is; you could well walk into BOTW hoping for an improved version of that but find a Zelda 2 on your hands. You don't necessarily have to turn the template on its head to make fresh content.

A game with a bigger overworld and physics interactivity but still rewards exploration with things you actually want like fun levels/dungeons to play, retains the core while evolving the game like Mario 3 to World. What they did here was hollow out the core of Zelda and replace it with something else.

"I have all these ideas how to improve Mario...but hear me out. The first thing we do is remove the levels" consider my expectations subverted.

How many times can we play explore world->find clumpy wall->go to dungeon->get bombs->explore overheard->find gap with post on other side->go to dungeon->get hook shot->explore over world->find giant rock you can't lift etc etc

 

[TintoConCasera]

I loved that game, but also breaks my heart because it was a very obviously unfinished game. I wish they would go back and properly finish it for subsequent releases.

They robbed us of a whole dungeon lol.

I've only beaten it once, but I remember the last section of the game being really, really cool. It deserves more recognition imo.

How many times can we play explore world->find clumpy wall->go to dungeon->get bombs->explore overheard->find gap with post on other side->go to dungeon->get hook shot->explore over world->find giant rock you can't lift etc etc

We've done that in Metroid quite a few times already and people aren't tired, to the point that many indies nowadays are still copying the formula.

The thing with the classic Zelda formula is that there's nothing else quite like it: a semi-open fantasy/medieval adventure focused on exploring, puzzles and combat with a sense of progression that keeps giving you new stuff up until the end of the game. People aren't making near as many Zelda-likes as they are making metroidvanias, so people are hungry for more of that I believe.

 

[BlackTron]

How many times can we play explore world->find clumpy wall->go to dungeon->get bombs->explore overheard->find gap with post on other side->go to dungeon->get hook shot->explore over world->find giant rock you can't lift etc etc

I mean this is like a different version of saying "how many times can we play a Mario level".

There doesn't have to be a hookshot. Ages games had a unique item that seemed like it would be a hookshot, but instead it switched your position with whatever item it grabbed as a teleport, making for a new brand of puzzles around this idea. But you were still playing a Zelda dungeon.

The boomerang can be reduced to a regular item like in BOTW, or removed outright. It doesn't have to be the special item to do the puzzles and beat the boss a 10th time, they can make a new idea.

The part that makes it Zelda isn't using the same items or ways of finding dungeons over and over again, I thought the Mario example showed that.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

They robbed us of a whole dungeon lol.

I've only beaten it once, but I remember the last section of the game being really, really cool. It deserves more recognition imo.

Wind Waker is one of my favorites. It had a big open world, and enemy weapons, and traditional dungeons, and a magic system.

I just want the next Zelda game to have all the things I love about Zelda, but in an open world. I really don't need to be able to climb everywhere if it ruins puzzle design.

 

[diffusionx]

The thing with the classic Zelda formula is that there's nothing else quite like it: a semi-open fantasy/medieval adventure focused on exploring, puzzles and combat with a sense of progression that keeps giving you new stuff up until the end of the game. People aren't making near as many Zelda-likes as they are making metroidvanias, so people are hungry for more of that I believe.

You can do that without making LTTP again, but now on a boat or whatever.

Echoes of Wisdom tried to do something different for example, but people didn't like that.

 

[diffusionx]

I mean this is like a different version of saying "how many times can we play a Mario level".

There doesn't have to be a hookshot. Ages games had a unique item that seemed like it would be a hookshot, but instead it switched your position with whatever item it grabbed as a teleport, making for a new brand of puzzles around this idea. But you were still playing a Zelda dungeon.

The boomerang can be reduced to a regular item like in BOTW, or removed outright. It doesn't have to be the special item to do the puzzles and beat the boss a 10th time, they can make a new idea.

The part that makes it Zelda isn't using the same items or ways of finding dungeons over and over again, I thought the Mario example showed that.

I agree. What I was talking about was literally this structure and item progression from a SNES game.

Imagine if every Mario since 3 had world 1 grass, world 2 desert, world 3 water, etc. people would get tired of that fast.

 

[keefged4]

I love BOTW and TOTK, but yes, I think the next one should follow the original 3D formula.

 

[Danjin44]

I personally don't seeing Zelda devs taking and changing formula.

Like it or not part of taking risk is that some people not gonna be in to it.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Wind Waker is one of my favorites. It had a big open world, and enemy weapons, and traditional dungeons, and a magic system.

I really liked it when I played it. Even the triforce quest was fine to me, it was very comfy to sail around in the boat, and being able to explore all those islands as you saw fit gave the game a lot of freedom.

I just want the next Zelda game to have all the things I love about Zelda, but in an open world. I really don't need to be able to climb everywhere if it ruins puzzle design.

Yeah imo the excessive freedom of the open-world games kill the sense of adventure a little bit. Even more so since you get most of the items/powers right at the start, killing the sense of progression.

You can do that without making LTTP again, but now on a boat or whatever.

How would you do it? BOTW and TOTK tried to be different and it did indeed felt like something that's not what Zelda should be (at least to me) with lack of progression and lack of proper level design being the biggest red flags.

 

[Dr Bass]

Zelda needs to keep evolving to stay fresh. I thought TotK was one of the best games I've played, and it was expressly because of the unlimited creativity it offers to the player. Definitely a game where you only get out what you put in. If you don't want to use the building mechanic, well, you won't get the most out of it that you can.

They definitely should not go back to the old formula. It's been done to perfection more or less. They should continue to try and do completely new things while making sure the games are unmistakably Zelda. Easier said than done of course.

 

[diffusionx]

How would you do it? BOTW and TOTK tried to be different and it did indeed felt like something that's not what Zelda should be (at least to me) with lack of progression and lack of proper level design being the biggest red flags.

I mean there are lots of top down action RPGs, Adventures of Elliott Page is coming out soon. But are those "what Zelda should be"?

I'm saying that Zelda can't just be this 1993 Link to the Past game structure and item setup. And if that's the only thing that qualifies as Zelda then I can see why Nintendo doesn't want to make the same game into eternity.

 

[DreamcastSkies]

I completely agree, OP. BOTW/TOTK are fine games but if/when they shape Zelda so much that traditional Zelda doesn't even exist anymore, it makes me look at them less favorably. I wish Traditional Zelda games could exist along side the open air/shrine based Zelda approach. If not, could traditional Zelda at least be moved to another IP?
I'm happy Adventures of Elliot exists. I always wanted to see 2D Zelda go larger (more towns, more NPCs) and this games looks Zelda-ish but leans more into RPG pillars as well (more towns, more NPC interaction)


It's too late now, but I feel like Kid Icarus was RIGHT THERE. The Kid Icarus franchise would work well for what Tears of the Kingdom wanted to do (air and land exploration with combat mixed in). Kid Icarus doesn't really have a true franchise identity yet. Kid Icarus could have been used for something like TOTK without compromising what makes Zelda Zelda.

 

[TintoConCasera]

I mean there are lots of top down action RPGs, Adventures of Elliott Page is coming out soon. But are those "what Zelda should be"?

I'm saying that Zelda can't just be this 1993 Link to the Past game structure and item setup. And if that's the only thing that qualifies as Zelda then I can see why Nintendo doesn't want to make the same game into eternity.

Maybe that's the case, but they don't seem to have that problem with Metroid lol. Wish they did like with that series, maybe completely handing over the nuZelda style games to Monolith, and having Nintendo keeping alive the old formula with more 3D games or, at least, 2D ones. I'd be really happy with that.

Adventures of Elliott Page

Hey thanks! Game ruined.

 

[LakeOf9]

Nah, Zelda is better now than it ever was before

 

[diffusionx]

Maybe that's the case, but they don't seem to have that problem with Metroid lol. Wish they did like with that series, maybe completely handing over the nuZelda style games to Monolith, and having Nintendo keeping alive the old formula with more 3D games or, at least, 2D ones. I'd be really happy with that.


Hey thanks! Game ruined.

Lol

i don't think there are as many Metroid games, and different teams work on them. And they did try some new things with like dread and other m, I guess. I'm not saying don't make new 2D Zelda, or every game had to be open world, just this LTTP formula is very constrictive and Zelda shouldn't be funneled into that very narrow vision.