Rumor: Xbox 3 = 6-core CPU, 2GB of DDR3 Main RAM, 2 AMD GPUs w/ Unknown VRAM, At CES

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Maybe they will bring those tools to make HTML5 apps to current and next console. So wat? Still only thing looking like Windows 8 will be few lines of code in the Xbox OS kernel and the interface

Product symmetry is a clear and stated goal of the entirety of Microsoft going forward, including its gaming division.

Sony will probably try to go for early 2013.

Early-in-the-year launches in the recent past haven't worked out too well (unless you're talking Japan-USA-Europe staggered launch).
 
They should sell a higher specced console for $500. people don't have a problem paying more an ipad - and that has a 1 year product cycle.

I will be happy with $500
 
PS4 is not launching anything sooner than fall 2013, next year is all Vita focused

If that's the case, then MS' strategy may work launching in fall 2012 to get a year long start is key but the pricepoint, services and s/w need to be there in the first 90 days (launch window). 720 doesn't have to be uber powerful as sony most likely cannot fund an uber PS4 anyways.
 
They should sell a higher specced console for $500. people don't have a problem paying more an ipad - and that has a 1 year product cycle.

I will be happy with $500

Yeah, and should have 16GB of RAM because that'll be like $50 by then.

This thread is a very small circle.
 
You can't drop $200 off it in the first year and you won't do that well hanging out above $299 for two whole years after launch.

To be fair, that's precisely what Sony has done with the PS3, while also dropping the HDD size from 60 GB to 40 GB and removing BC functionality (let's remember, they went from the standard $599 60 GB model with the additional - and hard to get - $499 20 GB model to the standard $399 40 GB model with the additional - and rarer - $499 80 GB model, all within one year). But I fully agree with you, launching at $499 or more is not a smart thing to do, to put it lightly. It's not happening, people, give it a rest.
 
No there isn't.

picard-facepalm2.jpg
 
And they sold terribly until they got it down to $299, and took billions of dollars of unrecoverable losses in the process. :P

Terribly compared to what? It was on par with the 360. The gap always kept getting smaller apart from some isolated quarters. Not sure they would have survived selling it at 299 from the get go.
 
My predictions:

1) Loop - Is the codename for the continued shrink and packaging (slimlining) of the 360. 360 and Loop has the same meaning, continuous. This may or may not come with repackaged Kinect. This will launch mid 2013 at a $150 price point for lower end sku. Likely to include higher amount of solid memory. MS will continue to push 360 as the entry price point for HD gaming and sell bucket loads all the way to $99 price point. This is same strategy as PS2, when PS3 launched and will continue to sell buckets. This will provide profits needed to fuel next-gen.

2) Infinite - Is the codename for 720 or next gen machine. Will be a pretty powerful machine with even more closely tied to Kinect 2.0. H/W will be 6 core cpu, single core gpu (think customized 6990) with 3-4gb of fast main ram and 60-100mb edram, BD drive. Will launch in mid 2013 at price point of not more than $400 for the upper sku. There maybe 2 skus, one for those that want to upgrade to next gen and have a fully inclusive services 'ready' machine and one for those that want all the bells n whistles included. New trilogy of Gears and Forza launches with system. Should have 6 months-1 year head start on PS4.
 
Terribly compared to what? It was on par with the 360. The gap always kept getting smaller apart from some isolated quarters. Not sure they would have survived selling it at 299 from the get go.

Pretty sure 360 was handily outselling the PS3 in NA. The PS3 caught up because MS sucks at business everywhere else.

You could also say the PS3 sold terribly compared to the PS2.
 
My predictions:

1) Loop - Is the codename for the continued shrink and packaging (slimlining) of the 360. 360 and Loop has the same meaning, continuous. This may or may not come with repackaged Kinect. This will launch mid 2013 at a $150 price point for lower end sku. Likely to include higher amount of solid memory. MS will continue to push 360 as the entry price point for HD gaming and sell bucket loads all the way to $99 price point. This is same strategy as PS2, when PS3 launched and will continue to sell buckets. This will provide profits needed to fuel next-gen.

2) Infinite - Is the codename for 720 or next gen machine. Will be a pretty powerful machine with even more closely tied to Kinect 2.0. H/W will be 6 core cpu, single core gpu (think customized 6990) with 3-4gb of fast main ram and 60-100mb edram, BD drive. Will launch in mid 2013 at price point of not more than $400 for the upper sku. There maybe 2 skus, one for those that want to upgrade to next gen and have a fully inclusive services 'ready' machine and one for those that want all the bells n whistles included. New trilogy of Gears and Forza launches with system. Should have 6 months-1 year head start on PS4.

I'd like any expert here that can tell us what a theoretical 6990 equivalent chip @28nm (22nm numbers would be nice too) would come in at RE: chip size and watts it would consume?

Not that I think for a second PS720 will get a chip this powerful.
 
Terribly compared to what? It was on par with the 360. The gap always kept getting smaller apart from some isolated quarters. Not sure they would have survived selling it at 299 from the get go.

Selling on par with the 360 is selling poorly considering the expectations. Sony was wallowing in confidence when they announced the PS3 and I remember the internet was abuzz with talk of it destroying the competition. The next-generation doesn't start until Sony says it does! lol.
 
I'd like any expert here that can tell us what a theoretical 6990 equivalent chip @28nm (22nm numbers would be nice too) would come in at RE: chip size and watts it would consume?

Not that I think for a second PS720 will get a chip this powerful.

I really don't think we'll see gpu in the 720 at 28nm. For cost and yields they will go with 32nm for both cpu and gpu me thinks. GPU wont be a fully fledged 6990 but will be heavily customized for console usage and will be slimmed down as much as possible to keep heat and power usage down. It'll be like the Xenos was to the R600 (or was it R500?).
 
I really don't think we'll see gpu in the 720 at 28nm. For cost and yields they will go with 32nm for both cpu and gpu me thinks. GPU wont be a fully fledged 6990 but will be heavily customized for console usage and will be slimmed down as much as possible to keep heat and power usage down. It'll be like the Xenos was to the R600 (or was it R500?).

I learned from b3d that 32nm and 28nm are the same process called differently by two different foundries. I recon you did see less than 10% difference even if that's not the case.
 
And losing over six billion dollars for Sony (and moving them from undisputed market leaders way down to fighting over a distant second) while Microsoft is likely going to end the generation slightly in the black. Sony's unit-sales competitiveness this generation has been funded entirely by crippling price drops.

Sony lost so much money because they weren't even near a break even point at launch and it didn't get cheaper to manufacture fast enough. Weren't they losing hundreds for every PS3 they sold?

Also, I think you're confusing "selling poorly" with selling to expectations. I'm sure 360 sold nearly as much as Microsoft suspected it would sell - at a price they weren't willing to go lower than because of costs. Because it's selling more now doesn't mean MS should have launched at $300/$200.
 
Sony lost so much money because they weren't even near a break even point at launch

Which is entirely my point: you can't launch at $499+ because you'll get stuck in the "sell badly or take huge losses per unit" trap that Sony found themselves in. It's not that complicated!

Also, I think you're confusing "selling poorly" with selling to expectations.

No, the 360 was definitely selling genuinely poorly.
 
It's a little hard to gauge sales when for almost a full year Microsoft was behind on 360 production

Supplies were so limited that they addressed it at e3 the next year and I vividly remember people camping out in the middle of the summer to get one

Microsofts plan of getting to 10 million backfired so hard because yield hit rock bottom

What they were shipping, they were selling... And they had supply problems twice this generation

People seem to forget this - and they dropped price 2 years in... Which I think was close to a record
 
It doesn't matter. It seriously, honestly doesn't. People are not going to suddenly decide that the next generation of systems are computer replacements and start dropping $600 on them. This is a complete fantasyland equivalency.
I disagreed with you until you got to the $600 thing.

I guess that's what I get for popping in and out of the thread. I didn't realize that was what was being argued. I had initially been arguing against someone saying $399 was too much ... and really the rest was a more general argument anyway.

Carry on.




Oh yeah they definitely use the services, but those services aren't the motivating reason to purchase the console. Non-gamers bought Wii and the 360 because of the Wiimote and Kinect. On the flipside they buy tablets, laptops, and desktops because of the non-gaming features they provide. Just from personal experience, I bet a strong majority don't even know the console provides those services till they use the console.
But people now have used the consoles and are aware of it ... and I am quite sure they will be paying attention to what similar or expanded features are on the upcoming ones. Things change.
 
TVs are becoming increasingly more capable of handling media by themselves.
But people don't buy TV's as often ... especially the ones that are supposedly good at this sort of thing (it's the higher end ones).

I think the point is, at $399/$599 the console competes for money against other devices which are far better at general purpose tasks, instead of complementing their purchases.
I think $599 is too much ... but I also think the next gen will be far better at general purpose tasks than you think. I believe it will be a priority.
 
Nothing will launch over $400 again. PS3 was a massive bomb for sony sales wise and financially. Sony had the strongest brand in gaming before the $600 debacle.
 
I'd like any expert here that can tell us what a theoretical 6990 equivalent chip @28nm (22nm numbers would be nice too) would come in at RE: chip size and watts it would consume?

Not that I think for a second PS720 will get a chip this powerful.

Well, the 40 nm 6990 is 2x389 mm^2.

It's hard to judge exactly what the overall percentage shrink will be before actually laying it out, because not all components shrink at the same rate, so while theoretically that same die at 28 nm will be 70% of the 40 nm(which would be 2x272 mm^2 in this case), in the real world it's often less.

2x272 mm^2 is clearly too large for a console, its quite a bit more than twice as large as either RSX or Xenos were.

At 22 nm a chip with that many transistors (would probably end up around 350-375 mm^2, just as a guess, though they could possible cut it back closer to 300 mm^2 by using a smaller memory bus and cutting some pc centric stuff) could be possible in a $600+ super high end console, but not a mainstream one, and even then, would likely be underclocked severely.

Which is ignoring the important fact that expecting any 22 nm chips from anyone other than intel to reach the consumer level in volume within the next 2-3 years is a bit of a reach. Whatever the next consoles have, it will almost surely start out at 28 nm, unless they are really planning on waiting till late 2014 to launch.

I expect a single 6970 type chip at 28 nm, with features and bus width trimmed down until it fits on a roughly 200 mm^2 die. Which is still a huge leap in power over the current generation, over 10x the transistors and probably a substantial increase in clock speed.
 
What constitutes a "general purpose task" to you in this context?
I assume he was referring to apps, web browsing, and the like. The sort of thing most people use smartphones/tablets for.






Nothing will launch over $400 again. PS3 was a massive bomb for sony sales wise and financially. Sony had the strongest brand in gaming before the $600 debacle.
Sales-wise, PS3 isn't a flop at all. Would they like them to be higher? Sure, but it's doing good enough. The obvious problem is they went with too many high-risk parts ... all of which ended up having yield/cost issues. It was a comedy of errors that basically created a worst-case scenario financially.

That isn't to say I think they'll launch above $400 though - especially given the the economy.
 
I learned from b3d that 32nm and 28nm are the same process called differently by two different foundries. I recon you did see less than 10% difference even if that's not the case.

If true, I wonder which foundry will make the new 720. Will it be the same as 360? Hmm... 10% can mean a big difference if it's the same foundry and can translate to a substantial savings and increase in yields.
 
Announcement and sneak preview at CES 2012. With a small teaser video + information about Windows 8 intergration.

E3 full reveal, including release date and first games. Release Q4 2012. To battle Nintendo and be in before Sony. (Yes, it doesn't seem plausible because of Halo 4, however I think there's a good chance it will).

CONSOLE
The console itself will launch at $400. Powerful console and a true 'next generation console'. It will support the old X360 controllers but it might launch with slightly upgraded controllers as well (like the improved D-pad ones). The console would be fully BC as well.

LIVE
Live will be even a bigger major thing at the next Xbox. Windows 8 will be heavily intergraded in the new Xbox. Like using Skype and calling to tablets/computers as well instead of Xbox users onlu. Xbox Live will continue to expand and will add even more services over time. I think they will try to make it more of a 'media box subscribtion' instead of gaming focused. I think they will make Live accessable on Windows 8 OS as well.

Xbox Live accounts will carry over, including achievements (trust me, this is a heavy thing for a lot of gamers and would be stupid not to).


KINECT
Kinect + Xbox bundle will be released for $500 with a Kinect 2.0. Old one would still be supported. The 2.0 will be an improved version. Kinect, though not required for the Xbox will be a huge focus. They will make all the Xbox features Kinect supported. They will try to include it as much as possible in games as well (especially exclusives).

And will reduce the X360 in price and the 360 will keep supporting (most) arcade and maybe even Kinect games.


Of course, this is all speculation though I think some things are pretty much inevitable.
 
Personally I don't mind a high price but as long as the console can produce games that make it worth it.
This was the problem for me when I purchased a PS3 at launch. Motorstorm, Resistance and Godfather looked like shit. Those two games made me regret my purchase immediately.
I had already owned the xbox360 for 8 months which was cheaper and appeared like it could produce those two games without breaking a sweat.
If you are going to launch a £450 console them make sure it's showcasing games that look like they are running on high tech kit.
 
PS4 is not launching anything sooner than fall 2013, next year is all Vita focused

If that's the case, then MS' strategy may work launching in fall 2012 to get a year long start is key but the pricepoint, services and s/w need to be there in the first 90 days (launch window). 720 doesn't have to be uber powerful as sony most likely cannot fund an uber PS4 anyways.

How come? You dont need to put billions on the table to have a powerful machine.
 
Pretty sure 360 was handily outselling the PS3 in NA. The PS3 caught up because MS sucks at business everywhere else.

You could also say the PS3 sold terribly compared to the PS2.

PS3 caught up because of the xenophobic Japanese market, which is becoming less relevant for the overall Asian market as a whole. Microsoft has a chance in this market if they could get Korea and China thinking it is ok to own their machine.
 
PS3 caught up because of the xenophobic Japanese market, which is becoming less relevant for the overall Asian market as a whole. Microsoft has a chance in this market if they could get Korea and China thinking it is ok to own their machine.

You should add parts of Europe part too... lmao.
 
Regarding how Apple prices its products and fast they sell and Microsoft being no Santa Claus, I fully expect to pay a leg and an arm for my next-gen Xbox wether through necessary add-ons or some sexy total entertainment bundle (like Loop + Infinity or Infinity + Kinect 2.0).
 
PS4 is not launching anything sooner than fall 2013, next year is all Vita focused

If that's the case, then MS' strategy may work launching in fall 2012 to get a year long start is key but the pricepoint, services and s/w need to be there in the first 90 days (launch window). 720 doesn't have to be uber powerful as sony most likely cannot fund an uber PS4 anyways.
I hate to burst your bubble guys but nor Xbox 360, neither PS3 ever were "uber powerful". Sony's financials on PS3 have more to do with how badly it was designed than it being anything "uber". Xbox 360 is an example of greatly designed hardware since it is almost on PS3 levels graphically while costing way less. And if you look at Vita it's pretty clear that Sony has learned its lesson and will most probably try to be smart during the design of PS4 - meaning trying to achieve as much as possible while staying in a reasonable cost range. The only way either of them would loose a technology race next gen is if one of them would launch a new console significantly later than the other - using better technologies in it as a result. Otherwise I'm pretty sure that they'll be even closer tech-wise than 360 and PS3 are.
 
I hate to burst your bubble guys but nor Xbox 360, neither PS3 ever were "uber powerful". Sony's financials on PS3 have more to do with how badly it was designed than it being anything "uber". Xbox 360 is an example of greatly designed hardware since it is almost on PS3 levels graphically while costing way less. And if you look at Vita it's pretty clear that Sony has learned its lesson and will most probably try to be smart during the design of PS4 - meaning trying to achieve as much as possible while staying in a reasonable cost range. The only way either of them would loose a technology race next gen is if one of them would launch a new console significantly later than the other - using better technologies in it as a result. Otherwise I'm pretty sure that they'll be even closer tech-wise than 360 and PS3 are.

Almost on PS3 levels?
 
How come? You dont need to put billions on the table to have a powerful machine.

1. sony's finances is in no position to do another $599 system
2. short term focus is still ps3 and now vita
3. ps3 has already cost them billions in potential revenue
4. they don't need an uber powerful machine
 
$399 Base Pack
$499 Pro Pack.

Best prices to kick start the generation.

100 more than the 360 launch prices, which was already pretty expensive? no thanks.

i say this as someone who spent 500 dollars on a ps3. it still blows my mind i did that, and that was because i was forced by the removal of bc. never again.
 
PS3 caught up because of the xenophobic Japanese market, which is becoming less relevant for the overall Asian market as a whole. Microsoft has a chance in this market if they could get Korea and China thinking it is ok to own their machine.

I can see MS pushing into Korea in a big way next gen. They'd be stupid not to. All they'd need is Dance Central: SNSD!
 
1. sony's finances is in no position to do another $599 system
2. short term focus is still ps3 and now vita
3. ps3 has already cost them billions in potential revenue
4. they don't need an uber powerful machine

imo, the flawed logic here is that a performant machine will cost necessarily $599 (and potentially +$800 to produce).
Taking iSupply's study on how much the 360 premium pack costed back then, it rounded at 525$ for a retail price of $399. We cant say that the 360 wasnt a powerful machine was it?
They just need to be careful of the nature of the components they want to integrate in their next machine.
 
I hate to burst your bubble guys but nor Xbox 360, neither PS3 ever were "uber powerful". Sony's financials on PS3 have more to do with how badly it was designed than it being anything "uber".
PS3 was expensive because of an early inclusion of blu-ray drive, back when such drives were new and expensive. That's it really. If you want to call that a bad design, go ahead, but I personally really liked that they had it in there, as for me it meant one less thing to buy.
 
That's not the only reason.
It's main reason. If they went with DVD drive instead, the console could have easily been $150 cheaper, and possibly even more. Of course, the fact that it was made of large slabs of perfectly molded acrylic, and stuff like that didn't help the price either, but that's all miniscule in comparison.

Early-in-the-year launches in the recent past haven't worked out too well (unless you're talking Japan-USA-Europe staggered launch).
The other option would be to not sell anything for the whole year, until the end-of-year launch, so I doubt they'll hesitate until they absolutely have to.
 
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