BrLvgThrChmstry
Banned
Um, random question but is DOTA2 already been released? ...opened up steam to play some CSS and its in my library -- started D/L'ing it a few minutes ago.
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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]
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BrLvgThrChmstry
Banned
Edit: Ok.
close to the edge
Member
S&Y (and by extension, Sange) doesn't count as a orb effect in vanilla Dota anymore either. So far, gameplay-wise, I'm not aware of any diffences between Dota and Dota 2.
SouthernDragon
Member
I agree. I messed up on my wording.
I got in Southern, sorry brah. all thanks to a generous gaffer.
SouthernDragon
Member
Cool, who's your favorite hero thus far?
krameriffic
Member
Watching streams on www.streamdota2.com can be very useful. I'm sure there are guides out there as well, but it's interesting to see the game in action and how the words you might read in a beginners guide translate. Also, I would suggest jumping into a practice custom lobby and just running around on your own to get used to the mechanics of the game before jumping straight into a lobby.
Gave Riki a shot last night, and he is awesome, although incredibly team dependent. I went like 10/1/7 up until mid match when my team started getting picked off in jungles and losing team fights. Also, the other team having dusts pretty much put me in the toilet. We ended up losing pretty badly late game, but man he is fun to play.
Play a lot of bot games and try to learn what each hero is capable of... Next play a lot of bot games and try to figure out the fastest way to reach level 25 and keep your GPM high(well over 500 is good place to start for bot games). If you take the time and learn like that you'll be set for matchmaking and you'll probably end up raising your MMR from the default.
Togglesworlh
Banned
You only need that kind of GPM if you're playing a carry, though. Not all heroes need that much gold. Especially support.
Togglesworlh
Banned
You can get last hits if you're carry's not present, yeah. Just make sure you don't push the lane.
But mostly assists, like Archie said.
Stack and pull, get the occasional last hit.
The gold ticking in automatically.
I had no idea people actually play LoL that way. I still find it weird the game DEFAULTS to being that way. I like having a key to center the camera on my Hero quickly, but I need to be able to scroll the screen around however I please.
Woo-Fu
Banned
You still need to understand the mechanics well enough to do that, even if you don't actually need to do it. Last hits, denies, jungling, pushing, etc. Even if you don't need to do any of that yourself you need to know how to help your own team do it or prevent the other team.
If you can get your GPM up that high you've obviously learned the basics of laning.
Togglesworlh
Banned
If you don't play carry, you absolutely do not need to be able to get that kind of GPM.
Even if you do play carry, unless you're playing high level, you can get away with 400 more often than not. (I do.)
I still think it's the best way to "getting better". Learning most efficient use of time, where you can and can't be at certain times, not dieing, how to last-hit and deny, etc. I don't think these things can really be taught, they come from repetition in trying to reach a goal.
If you're completely new to the game, learning the carry and support nuance is kinda pointless if you don't know why you are supporting or how to carry....or even who plays each role.
Been a long time since I've touched LoL, so I barely remember anything about those 3 Champions (in fact I think I only played Anivia once out of those).
I would say just start with the "easier" heroes and avoid the hard ones. I can give you a few heroes that are fairly simple to pick up and play.
"Easy" Heroes:
-Windrunner
-Lion
-Broodmother
-Dragon Knight
-Drow Ranger (A little advanced, but you might be able to play her)
Heroes to avoid for now:
-Morphling (definitely avoid him until you learn everyone else, his ult Transforms into someone else!)
-Ancient Apparition (Unless you are super awesome with skillshots, his can be kind of tricky)
-Pudge (The first time I played him, I realized everyone made his skillshot look easy, it is definitely not)
Togglesworlh
Banned
500 is really high for someone just starting at the game. There's no reason they should have to play bot games until they can reliably hit 500. If I followed that rule, I'd still be in bot games, and bot games are boring.
What does hitting 500 GPM have to do with any of that? Nothing.
GhostRidah
Member
How do you guys build your morhpling skill wise?
I usually go waveform and stats until level 8 in which point I put one into morph, hold off on ult until level 10.
I try and rush linkens and then deciding between Ethereal blade or manta style.
If you have a better build/items please do tell.
I usually go waveform and stats until level 8 in which point I put one into morph, hold off on ult until level 10.
I try and rush linkens and then deciding between Ethereal blade or manta style.
If you have a better build/items please do tell.
Honestly I don't think there's a good reason to go stats over morph early. The only benefit you get is some extra intelligence. Morph already gives you +2 str and +2 agi just for leveling the skill, it's to your benefit to be able to morph quickly into pure str to get away from fights.
Many supports have really small sets of Core Items. Heck, someone like Lich is just fine with two bracers and some boots, and warding up everywhere with the rest of his money.
Also, I will have to back track on me saying not to get Frost Armor on Lich till 7. The thing is super useful to stop Antimage from ganking early game. He blinks in to try and kill you? Frost Armor and walk away, after one hit he will usually be too slow to catch you. You shouldn't level it up till late game, but the slow is super useful, so picking it up at 3 to 5 can easily be worth it if you are facing Melee Characters.
Because I think if you are able to reach over 500 gpm in bot games, you have the core idea of the game down and I think its better to learn that first and get it out of the way before you start worrying about team theory. It's like learning how to macro efficiently in starcraft... as long as you can macro well, you can easily reach at least platinum level... which is basically like of reaching 1500-1600 MMR in LoL and 1700 MMR in hon if you factor player base percentages. Anyone who's played with me in SC2-gaf can tell you, I'm terrible fucking starcraft player but because I can macro efficiently I still reached diamond.
Riki is the closest I have found so far. He doesn't have anything like shaco's boxes, but he does have an aoe slow/silence/miss rate.
Well Shaco's ult is redundant since any hero can get the illusion effect via a rune or an item... but Riki shares his backstab passive, but his blink is to a target and he is permanently invisible via his ult.
Closet I can think of is Riki. Has a Smoke Bomb that slows and causes Silence, Blink Strike, which teleports him to a target unit and hits them if they are an enemy, the backstab passive which does extra damage if you hit form behind, and his Ultimate, Permanent Invisibility, which is a passive that kicks in a few seconds out of combat.
The ability to have clones in Dota can easily be had from a Rune or the item Mantra Style too.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Okay? You can get the core idea of the game down long before you reach 500 GPM.
Hell, you can get the core idea of the game down without ever actually playing a carry at all. You don't have to have played one to know how they work or how best to support them. It helps, but it's not necessary. Besides that, playing with the retarded bots is the worst way to learn how to play with a real person playing a carry. The bots work great with each other, but absolutely awful with real people.
just played a game where i watched ikuu farm on fusion for forty minutes, and we almost lost even with all thr farm.p
Would have won earlier but I think I took control of a treant by mistake and died, they had no chance of winning a base race though. If we had lost with all that farm I had, would have been so mad :lol
Going from LoL to DOTA:
The Basics
Let's start with the most obvious differences. DOTA has no Summoner Spells, no Masteries, no Rune pages. You say "duh, I knew that", but you probably don't fully appreciate what this means.
For example, you just won mid by Flashing into Kassadin with Annie, using your combo + Ignite to blow him up. You're very low, so you hit B to recall to base. For longtime LoL players, all this is second nature. In DOTA, however, you can't Flash, you can't Ignite, and you need to walk back to base. It's easy to forget this and keep pushing like a moron, because you're used to thinking that you have one or two get out of jail cards for when things get tricky. It's a habit that you need to drop quickly if you're going to get anywhere in DOTA. If you want to Recall, you'll have to pay for it, if you want to Flash, you have to pay for it. Farm is supremely important in DOTA, because that's how you round out your character. Which leads me to the next bit.
Ganking and being Ganked
You lose gold for dying. I cannot stress how important it is to understand this. Consider how many times you've lost a LoL game because Trynd or Irelia was just freefarming top while your team was running around ganking and actually playing the game. You tried ganking them, and they either slipped away or died, only to come back and farm another lane. Losing seems inevitable right?
Not true in DOTA. Not only can you STOP someone from farming, but you can actually REVERSE it. If they're stockpiling money for a core item, a few well time ganks can completely ruin their game. But this also goes both ways. When you get ganked, you're not only giving them gold, but you're losing gold yourself. A successful gank is equal to two kills in LoL, the money gained from killing a hero, and the money that hero loses for dying.
This is why you often see upwards of 4-5 deaths before people even reach level 6. No Summoner spells means people aren't as safe, so the benefits of ganking early can easily outweigh the risk of losing farm, which is part of the reason why the DOTA meta is generally more dynamic than that of LoL. The other reason is because of resource management.
Mana and Health Pools
All DOTA heroes use mana to some degree. Some will be very reliant on their mana pools, some not at all, some will have additional health costs tacked on to the mana cost. There is no one like Kat, Garen, Akali, Ken, or Morde, who can just spam spells all day without items and never have to worry about being unable to spam spells at some point. In comparison, mana management in DOTA is very strict. Early game mana regen is expensive and slow. Buying a Sobi Mask to start is not the same as buying a Meki Pendent. Mana costs are also high, and mana pools are highly dependent on base stats.
To illustrate: Sven has one of the best stuns in the game. It's targeted, it has decent range, it's AoE, it deals up to 325 damage at Level 4, which is above average for a non-ultimate spell, it stuns for 2 seconds at all levels. A well aimed stun can lock out half the team.
It also costs 140 mana, and Sven has one of the lowest base Int and Int gain in the game. Even Pudge is smarter than Sven. Even Skeleton King, who has 3 passives, and an ult that restores all his mana and hp on death, is smarter than Sven.
You have enough mana to use Storm Bolt once, from level 1 to 6, without any sort of mana regen.
While LoL spells are designed to be spammable (partially because skill shots are unreliable), doing low to moderate damage, DOTA spells are generally designed to do high amount of damage at great cost. There are also many many stuns, disables and slows in DOTA, you should not walk around thinking you can get away just by running. A good early gank will usually have enough damage to drop the main target within 3 seconds, which, considering the length of the average disable, gives you a second of response time.
Health, is also a precious resource. While there are more options for healing health swiftly early game (tangos and pots), health pools are generally lower and passive regen is almost nonexistent without items or skills. Harassing is just as crucial in DOTA as it is in LoL, and, because of the lack of health regen, is much more effective. Early game will usually consist of both sides taking pot shots (usually with basic attacks) at each other, until one side feels the other is low enough to call in a gank, or throw all their spells at once, in the hopes of getting a kill. Another thing to keep in mind is that, because there is no Recall skill, it takes twice as long to get back into your lane after leaving it than it does in LoL. This is why couriers are so crucial, because they can deliver that much needed regen from the base, and often make the difference between winning a lane and losing one.
Lastly, options for getting more health are very limited. The best and most accessible health item is Vanguard, which costs 2275 gold. This is enough to get Power Treads and Bottle, a Blink Dagger, a Force Staff, half of a Battlefury, etc etc. Since the passive gold tick is so much slower than that of LoL, and items are much more expensive, the hero you choose will heavily impact how the game is going to pan out for you. If you chose someone squishy, you will be squishy for a while, if you chose someone with mana problems, you'll also have mana problems for a while.
Miscellaneous Things I Don't Feel Like Elaborating On
- Always carry at least 1 TP scroll when you can afford it without cutting into your core items. It will be your Recall + Flash
- Wards are much stronger. Against a tryhard team, if you're wandering around by yourself in their jungle or your jungle, chances are they know about it and they're already on the way to gank you.
- You should not expect to be decked out in items as support (most INT heroes), so don't farm a lane while your team is ganking.
- There is no spell scaling. This is offset by the fact that caster damage growth is much greater than carry damage growth... until around level 14-16, at which point carries will quickly leave casters in the dust.
- Last hitting is difficult, because of the huge variance between attack animations. This should be the first thing you should practice after getting the basics. I also guarantee you that if you become good at last-hitting and denying in DOTA, you will be able to outfarm most players in LoL.
The Basics
Let's start with the most obvious differences. DOTA has no Summoner Spells, no Masteries, no Rune pages. You say "duh, I knew that", but you probably don't fully appreciate what this means.
For example, you just won mid by Flashing into Kassadin with Annie, using your combo + Ignite to blow him up. You're very low, so you hit B to recall to base. For longtime LoL players, all this is second nature. In DOTA, however, you can't Flash, you can't Ignite, and you need to walk back to base. It's easy to forget this and keep pushing like a moron, because you're used to thinking that you have one or two get out of jail cards for when things get tricky. It's a habit that you need to drop quickly if you're going to get anywhere in DOTA. If you want to Recall, you'll have to pay for it, if you want to Flash, you have to pay for it. Farm is supremely important in DOTA, because that's how you round out your character. Which leads me to the next bit.
Ganking and being Ganked
You lose gold for dying. I cannot stress how important it is to understand this. Consider how many times you've lost a LoL game because Trynd or Irelia was just freefarming top while your team was running around ganking and actually playing the game. You tried ganking them, and they either slipped away or died, only to come back and farm another lane. Losing seems inevitable right?
Not true in DOTA. Not only can you STOP someone from farming, but you can actually REVERSE it. If they're stockpiling money for a core item, a few well time ganks can completely ruin their game. But this also goes both ways. When you get ganked, you're not only giving them gold, but you're losing gold yourself. A successful gank is equal to two kills in LoL, the money gained from killing a hero, and the money that hero loses for dying.
This is why you often see upwards of 4-5 deaths before people even reach level 6. No Summoner spells means people aren't as safe, so the benefits of ganking early can easily outweigh the risk of losing farm, which is part of the reason why the DOTA meta is generally more dynamic than that of LoL. The other reason is because of resource management.
Mana and Health Pools
All DOTA heroes use mana to some degree. Some will be very reliant on their mana pools, some not at all, some will have additional health costs tacked on to the mana cost. There is no one like Kat, Garen, Akali, Ken, or Morde, who can just spam spells all day without items and never have to worry about being unable to spam spells at some point. In comparison, mana management in DOTA is very strict. Early game mana regen is expensive and slow. Buying a Sobi Mask to start is not the same as buying a Meki Pendent. Mana costs are also high, and mana pools are highly dependent on base stats.
To illustrate: Sven has one of the best stuns in the game. It's targeted, it has decent range, it's AoE, it deals up to 325 damage at Level 4, which is above average for a non-ultimate spell, it stuns for 2 seconds at all levels. A well aimed stun can lock out half the team.
It also costs 140 mana, and Sven has one of the lowest base Int and Int gain in the game. Even Pudge is smarter than Sven. Even Skeleton King, who has 3 passives, and an ult that restores all his mana and hp on death, is smarter than Sven.
You have enough mana to use Storm Bolt once, from level 1 to 6, without any sort of mana regen.
While LoL spells are designed to be spammable (partially because skill shots are unreliable), doing low to moderate damage, DOTA spells are generally designed to do high amount of damage at great cost. There are also many many stuns, disables and slows in DOTA, you should not walk around thinking you can get away just by running. A good early gank will usually have enough damage to drop the main target within 3 seconds, which, considering the length of the average disable, gives you a second of response time.
Health, is also a precious resource. While there are more options for healing health swiftly early game (tangos and pots), health pools are generally lower and passive regen is almost nonexistent without items or skills. Harassing is just as crucial in DOTA as it is in LoL, and, because of the lack of health regen, is much more effective. Early game will usually consist of both sides taking pot shots (usually with basic attacks) at each other, until one side feels the other is low enough to call in a gank, or throw all their spells at once, in the hopes of getting a kill. Another thing to keep in mind is that, because there is no Recall skill, it takes twice as long to get back into your lane after leaving it than it does in LoL. This is why couriers are so crucial, because they can deliver that much needed regen from the base, and often make the difference between winning a lane and losing one.
Lastly, options for getting more health are very limited. The best and most accessible health item is Vanguard, which costs 2275 gold. This is enough to get Power Treads and Bottle, a Blink Dagger, a Force Staff, half of a Battlefury, etc etc. Since the passive gold tick is so much slower than that of LoL, and items are much more expensive, the hero you choose will heavily impact how the game is going to pan out for you. If you chose someone squishy, you will be squishy for a while, if you chose someone with mana problems, you'll also have mana problems for a while.
Miscellaneous Things I Don't Feel Like Elaborating On
- Always carry at least 1 TP scroll when you can afford it without cutting into your core items. It will be your Recall + Flash
- Wards are much stronger. Against a tryhard team, if you're wandering around by yourself in their jungle or your jungle, chances are they know about it and they're already on the way to gank you.
- You should not expect to be decked out in items as support (most INT heroes), so don't farm a lane while your team is ganking.
- There is no spell scaling. This is offset by the fact that caster damage growth is much greater than carry damage growth... until around level 14-16, at which point carries will quickly leave casters in the dust.
- Last hitting is difficult, because of the huge variance between attack animations. This should be the first thing you should practice after getting the basics. I also guarantee you that if you become good at last-hitting and denying in DOTA, you will be able to outfarm most players in LoL.
No, mana burn only works on melee illusions.
Not in the game yet, but Phantom Assassin is also pretty close.
Haha, I'm spreading playtime pretty wildly among the heroes. So far I'm getting the most enjoyment and results out of initiators and supports [Earthshaker, Tidehunter, Crystal Maiden, Dazzle, Omniknight].
Danke
Still a complete derpasaurus with Slardar, as I understand a fair number of people were watching a game I was failing royally in. Time to read some guides and think like a sea-slug. Long way to go with Sand King as well.I don't think playing bot games as a carry is going to do much other then get you accustomed to the animations, a new player is going to have trouble maintaining 250 GPM through creeps, so trying to shoot for 500 is pretty pointless.
That being said, if your new and trying to learn to carry, prepare yourself for an uphill, not fun battle.
Saying 500 was probably a poor choice of words for me, my point is that I think step 1 for a brand new player to the genre should be maximizing gpm/xpm... i think it gives the best platform to learn off of. Mostly because you learn other important details by proxy, like map and hero awareness
honestly maximizing gpm should be like, lowest priority for new players. Not dieing comes first, and then basic rules of ganking / warding next (im assuming that new players are on a support, like lich, cuz dont kid urself noobs on spectre is about as bad as it gets [except for anbokr spectre])
You're putting the horse before the cart there, Cheeto. It's mastering the basics that gets you a high GPM/XPM, not seeking to maintain the GPM/XPM that teaches you the basics.
No one keeps track of their GPM except for epeen purposes. You'll know if your GPM is low when you can't afford your core items and the other side can.
No one keeps track of their GPM except for epeen purposes. You'll know if your GPM is low when you can't afford your core items and the other side can.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I love Drow Ranger. Going to be tough to get good with her, but she's class.
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