Support NeoGAF

[x3r0123]

I was just talking about the current available pool, again TPing to save a carry holds true for every single carry, you would do the same whether it was an AM or a Sniper or a Viper. Also, I don't understand, a good any support will do what you need them to do, how does that change the fact that it's easier to recover from that then a good AM, also what support requires items to be effective, other then Warlock or Necrolyte ( don't know why he's listed under support ).

well i'm obviously talking about the dota1 existing hero pool and support warlock doesnt need items lol. support enigma could require bkb as he is often (if not always) gets shutdown first (though a swap/roar will still go through bkb). On the other hand, tide can just tank some damage, walk in and ult. Don't assume their official role under dota2 is final. I seen carry necro many times. Necro isnt the best support so he is understandable.
auto picking am doesnt guarantee you a win. It all comes down to execution.

I didn't know Razor Agahnim's was that effective, it's amazingly good at pushing, does Assault Cuiress lower towers armor?

yes it does as the icon shows. Cant recall if it was the same in dota1

Razor turned out to be an awesome pick. He pretty much ate all the barracks by himself once he had aghanim's sceptre.

razor's purge is nasty on single target spells

 

[Dina]

Don't forget Blademail on Axe. Or whatever that items called again.

 

[kneePat]

Razor turned out to be an awesome pick. He pretty much ate all the barracks by himself once he had aghanim's sceptre.

While this is true, I think the manta played a larger role in this case of eating the towers/buildings (as it usally does). Also the main benefit of an aghanims razor is not just targeting buildings but it is the faster rate of armor reduction caused by EOTS strikes and this is probably the best reason to get the item and make it better than AC in some situations due to higher armor reductions. And this is not mentioning the stat gain from Aghanims (which is needed on Razor) and the price difference or your team mate already getting/having an AC.

 

[Swag]

well i'm obviously talking about the dota1 existing hero pool and support warlock doesnt need items lol.

I was talking in the context of the tournament, if your talking about Dota1 pool, then I don't think we have much more to discuss on the matter. As for Warlock, I feel like that hero is not a justifiable pick unless he can get refresher or Aghanims for the double ult / golem

Don't assume their official role under dota2 is final. I seen carry necro many times. Necro isnt the best support so he is understandable.

Of course I understand that heroes can fulfill multiple roles, come on

auto picking am doesnt guarantee you a win. It all comes down to execution.

This is true for every carry, gosh I don't understand why you assumed this, I just said it's harder to deal with / recover from a good / farmed AM in comparison to a Chen.

 

[Artanisix]

Warlock is just an assy hero in general. Probably one of the worst heroes in the game :/

 

[Keikaku]

I am so bad at this game. I haven't played in years and I've only played 2 games so far but still . . .

I'm using Sven right now and I went, 3-17 and 1-9 in the two games I played today. I've forgotten so many of the basics. Time to look up shit on YouTube and remember how to play, I guess.

Anyone have any tips?

 

[shintoki]

I am so bad at this game. I haven't played in years and I've only played 2 games so far but still . . .

I'm using Sven right now and I went, 3-17 and 1-9 in the two games I played today. I've forgotten so many of the basics. Time to look up shit on YouTube and remember how to play, I guess.

Anyone have any tips?

Don't play a carry to start.

 

[Keikaku]

Don't play a carry to start.

I picked him because he seemed like the easiest to start with. Who would you suggest then and why?

 

[Card Boy]

Don't play a carry to start.

I say learn the hard way and let him play a carry.

Easiest hero i can recommended is Skeleton King, only has 1 active and 3 passives.

 

[Haly]

No no no Sven is really hard to play well. Tiny mana pool and lack of escapes means he has a very small window of opportunity to do his job.

Go Lich. Or, if you remember your basics, go Windrunner.

 

[MurkyZebra2417]

Really have a run at the moment. Went from 22-28 stats to 28-28 stats in 2 days, wohoo

 

[eneko]

Map awareness will save your ass from unnecessary deaths. Make a habit of glancing at the minimap every so often.

 

[Kapura]

Nobody new to the game should ever pick a carry. Ever ever ever, even if they have lots of experience with similar games. If you're on a carry, you're going to require items, which means you're going to need to know how to last hit with your hero. Last hitting in any new game takes time to get used to what with lag differences and attack animations. The first game with Skeleton King I played, I couldn't lasthit for shit and I was a burden to my team. More recently, now that I've learned to what degree I need to compensate for his swing, I can get 400ck on him np.

People who aren't familiar with/good at lasthitting need to play heroes that ideally require no items. Lich is great in this regard; the only items you would buy are boots, wards, and maybe a mek. As soon as you hit your ult, your job is basically over. You don't need survivability, you don't need autoattack damage, you don't need shit.

 

[shintoki]

I say learn the hard way and let him play a carry.

Easiest hero i can recommended is Skeleton King, only has 1 active and 3 passives.

Actives vs passives have little to do with difficult. Though it will still be a trial to get use to them.

Carries are farm and item dependent. You're laning is poor, map awareness is poor, you don't have too much info on items yet. I'd say start with either meaty melee(Initiators) or ranged characters. They give you quite a bit more room for error. Lich is definitely a good place to start. I had good results with Dazzle too.

 

[Haly]

Question to DOTAGaf, which carries/semi-carries do you think are the easiest to play?

I would choose Juggernaut, Luna (who isn't in), AM, Riki and Nightstalker in no particular order.

(This is assuming random pubs and not high level games)

 

[Keikaku]

Thanks for all the responses everyone. Looks like it's Lich with Dazzle or Drow Ranger as backup.

 

[spermatic cord]

Question to DOTAGaf, which carries/semi-carries do you think are the easiest to play?

I would choose Juggernaut, Luna (who isn't in), AM, Riki and Nightstalker in no particular order.

(This is assuming random pubs and not high level games)

Viper and Mirana

 

[Ikuu]

Viper and Mirana

I'd say to Viper, but Mirana is fragile and you need to be able to land arrows to get the best out of her.

 

[Sanjay]

Two things:
1. Drow silence is good to stop Tidehunter from getting off Ravage.
2. Picking Spectre against a push lineup is suicide.

1.You don't pick Drow, a end game carry for the silence to stop solely for Ravage.
2.How does picking Drow stop them from pushing, its the same outcome as picking Spectre, in fact it would be feeding Spectre creeps closer to his base. Like Drow the hard carry kept getting ganked because she has no escape while Spectre has one of the best escapes in the game.

 

[Kapura]

Thanks for all the responses everyone. Looks like it's Lich with Dazzle or Drow Ranger as backup.

not drow. she has a difficult attack animation and requires farm and gamesense, which needs to be developed over time.

 

[Haly]

Viper and Mirana

I forgot about Viper but Mirana?

Really???

Nothing worse than a Mirana who can't land her arrows or ults at the wrong time.

 

[shintoki]

What about lifestealer? He seems pretty basic to use and tanky once you get going. Also choose between jungle and lane.

 

[x3r0123]

I was talking in the context of the tournament, if your talking about Dota1 pool, then I don't think we have much more to discuss on the matter. As for Warlock, I feel like that hero is not a justifiable pick unless he can get refresher or Aghanims for the double ult / golem

nah, golem is good for initiation regardless of the double golem or not. fatal bonds followed by upheaval is hard to get away. He isnt exactly top picks stuffs atm.

This is true for every carry, gosh I don't understand why you assumed this, I just said it's harder to deal with / recover from a good / farmed AM in comparison to a Chen.

true but there are cases where a farmed am fails. One role that doesnt get enough attention is support. The carry gets all the glory while the support is just sits in the corner celebrating. Farmed chen wont win games unless of course, the other team is bad.

I'm not jumping to conclusions, I am only expression my opinion through all the competitive matches i have seen . Heck, sa was a hot pick long time ago.

 

[shintoki]

true but there are cases where a farmed am fails. One role that doesnt get enough attention is support. The carry gets all the glory while the support is just sits in the corner celebrating. Farmed chen wont win games unless of course, the other team is bad.

I'm not jumping to conclusions, I am only expression my opinion through all the competitive matches i have seen . Heck, sa was a hot pick long time ago.

Support is always going to be your unsung hero.

The carry concentrates on farm, the support does everything else

 

[Ikuu]

It's very rare for a carry to completely fail at the pro level, how many games where someone picks AM do you see them do terribly.

 

[Aesthet1c]

Death Prophet is so awesome. I just started playing her yesterday and she's nearly unstoppable. I had my first perfect game where I went like 10/0/7 or something. Granted this is all in pubs, but it feels good to be doin great with someone since I'm still new to Dota and haven't been doing exceptional with anyone up until this point.

 

[Haly]

What about lifestealer? He seems pretty basic to use and tanky once you get going. Also choose between jungle and lane.

I don't think so. Given equal farm, Naix is still weaker than AM until late game.

Damned if I know how it works but that's what I've seen. AM with vanguard is a beast, Naix with vanguard is a nuisance.

 

[shintoki]

I don't think so. Given equal farm, Naix is still weaker than AM until late game.

Damned if I know how it works but that's what I've seen. AM with vanguard is a beast, Naix with vanguard is a nuisance.

I was just thinking easy to play, rather than strongest.

 

[n0b]

Sad that Mouz didn't play well today. SingSing is my favorite player. Glad TR are putting up a fight.

They just made some bad choices, especially in the pick stages. Their first game against Na'Vi they basically picked against themself. They stick Trixi on Nightstalker when Nightstalker doesn't carry in any way at all if he's just farmed and thats all Trixi does. SingSing needs the solomid ganker role and they just give him a sidesolo lane maintenance role as veno. It just didn't make sense. I think rexi veno, singsing ns, trixi void and they would have had a much better chance. And then second game sticking rexi on the riki and trixi on the mirana (and giving navi everything they want).

 

[Aesthet1c]

Also, I just played a match against a Lifestealer and Riki, and man that's an ugly combo. Lifestealer would always latch to Riki, so any given time you could get jumped by 2 carries. Nothing a gem couldn't solve, but before I got to that point it was nasty.

 

[Haly]

I was just thinking easy to play, rather than strongest.

I think part of being easy to play is being naturally strong, having good farming abilities or high scaling.

That's the main reason I listed Jugger and Luna, since they have "I win" buttons that can bring them safely through early game.

 

[Taborcarn]

Coming from only LoL experience, I'm completely lost with regards to the items. Even with a build guide open on my iPad while I play I'm still unsure as to the reasoning why these items should be picked over others. Heh and don't even ask about courier usage. I'm going to have to do some hardcore studying before playing more. I got stomped playing as lich and CM vs bots, but did a little better as Shadow Shaman.

 

[Haly]

Can you give an example?

If you're playing support, the reason there's a lot of "out of place items" is because supports aren't expected to get any kind of farm at all. So their "core items" really consists of whatever they can scrounge up in between warding, dusting, counterwarding and smoking. This usually means boots, stick and bracers since bracers are the cheapest way to get some much needed hp.

 

[x3r0123]

It's very rare for a carry to completely fail at the pro level, how many games where someone picks AM do you see them do terribly.

shutdown the carry early so that he doesnt have much of an effect in teamfights later on

 

[eneko]

Coming from only LoL experience, I'm completely lost with regards to the items. Even with a build guide open on my iPad while I play I'm still unsure as to the reasoning why these items should be picked over others. Heh and don't even ask about courier usage. I'm going to have to do some hardcore studying before playing more. I got stomped playing as lich and CM vs bots, but did a little better as Shadow Shaman.

Guides often provide a little blurb with reasoning for item choices. Nonetheless, it'll only make sense to you as you gain more experience and familiarity with your abilities and role.

 

[Neki]

1.You don't pick Drow, a end game carry for the silence to stop solely for Ravage.
2.How does picking Drow stop them from pushing, its the same outcome as picking Spectre, in fact it would be feeding Spectre creeps closer to his base. Like Drow the hard carry kept getting ganked because she has no escape while Spectre has one of the best escapes in the game.

also, tidehunter is basically immune to long cc, so it really doesn't matter.

 

[Haly]

One of the best escapes in the game?

Wah??

 

[Raxus]

I can't see why any noobies would want to get into this game. It is just an endless stream of bitching when one team loses.

 

[n0b]

I think part of being easy to play is being naturally strong, having good farming abilities or high scaling.

That's the main reason I listed Jugger and Luna, since they have "I win" buttons that can bring them safely through early game.

I think strong nukes and good escape mechanisms are what make a character easy to play. Good farming and scaling are bonuses, because its harder for new players to farm fast and carry early.

So I would say yes to Mirana actually, bad arrows can be fixed with setup stuns and good arrows aren't as common as people would think anyway, and though a bad mirana may not have the map awareness to save their teammate with the ult, they can use it for getting themselves in or out of fights in a way that would still be mildly effective.

Weaver has good escapes, and germinate will help new players get last hits they otherwise wouldn't, and the swarm and skoochy work great for damage dealing when they need it. (Though I wouldn't plan on a new weaver being the best radiance carrier, but some can do it.)

Anti-Mage obviously because blink is such a good skill, his spell shield makes him basically immune to the kind of nuke damage that usually makes up ganks, and his last hit animation is good enough that people that aren't great can still farm up.

 

[shintoki]

I think part of being easy to play is being naturally strong, having good farming abilities or high scaling.

That's the main reason I listed Jugger and Luna, since they have "I win" buttons that can bring them safely through early game.

Jug was my first choice too. Heh. I was just adding in Lifestealer since he seems to be rather simple, yet efficient.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I can't see why any noobies would want to get into this game. It is just an endless stream of bitching when one team loses.

I'm a noobie and it's actually pretty good in my experience. Much better than Starcraft 2 anyway, in that game I'd get bitched at if I lost for sucking and get bitched at if I won for being cheap.

 

[Haly]

Jug was my first choice too. Heh. I was just adding in Lifestealer since he seems to be rather simple, yet efficient.

If this was old Naix we're talking about I would agree with you but new Naix is pretty difficult to play well.

I see too many people using Rage too soon, or not using Open Wounds at the right time, or forgetting to Infest.

 

[x3r0123]

If this was old Naix we're talking about I would agree with you but new Naix is pretty difficult to play well.

I see too many people using Rage too soon, or not using Open Wounds at the right time, or forgetting to Infest.

what? not true at all

I can't see why any noobies would want to get into this game. It is just an endless stream of bitching when one team loses.

yet, some people still want to try it

 

[Procarbine]

http://i.imgur.com/FKbr9.jpg[IMG]


Coming over from LoL. [spoiler]:O[/spoiler]

Anything wrong/blatantly bad with my build?


The game is infectious as fuck.[/QUOTE]

I know this is from some time ago, but I needed to comment. Don't get battle fury on axe, his damage/farming ability comes from counter helix. Build defensive items, soak damage, and deal it back. Getting a blink dagger is also important, as it lets him initiate fights with his taunt.

Battle fury is an auto attack farming item, if you buy it, you need to use it to farm and get to your next items very quickly, typically something like bkb. Based off that picture it seems like you're a beginner, so when you're farming you need to shoot for more creep kills, as 56 in 32 minutes is pretty bad. 50/10 minutes is solid farm, try to get there.

 

[Haly]

what? not true at all

This is just from personal experience.

 

[shintoki]

yet, some people still want to try it

Could it just be you? All the comments are repeats, though slight variations from League ones occur. I don't encounter much of a problem with the player base, simply because I don't respond to it. I understand their will be games that I get outplayed it straight up. And wrecks on both sides. There will also be players who curse at the slightest provocation and you let it get to yourself.

Ignore them and continue playing. It only hurts your team responding and starting some shit fight. You can still win or recover.

2nd, you are going to have shitty teammates and shitty games yourself. Don't let it get you down. I'm not perfect either. I do respond and send a nasty comments occasionally(Though mine are pretty end at calling someone useless or a wanker one time, before I realize it was stupid to say anything at all).

 

[Swag]

One of the best escapes in the game?

Wah??

Dagger out into trees, or Haunt to a hero that may not be able to kill you, however, at a pro level they will probably just chain CC you, as they did to weaver.

2.How does picking Drow stop them from pushing, its the same outcome as picking Spectre, in fact it would be feeding Spectre creeps closer to his base. Like Drow the hard carry kept getting ganked because she has no escape while Spectre has one of the best escapes in the game.

It's cause Drow's effectiveness starts a lot earlier then Spectre, Spectre really only becomes effective when she gets a radiance, Drow is effective when she gets level 3 Frost Arrows / level 1 silence, against a push team what is a Spectre going to do to assist defending?

true but there are cases where a farmed am fails. One role that doesnt get enough attention is support. The carry gets all the glory while the support is just sits in the corner celebrating. Farmed chen wont win games unless of course, the other team is bad.

Mostly because the decision making for a support is very cut and dry in a team fight situation, compare playing CM in a team fight to playing Storm Spirit for example. A lot of their stuff happens in the background, so it's not really noticed unless their doing it wrong.

I do respond and send a nasty comments occasionally(Though mine are pretty end at calling someone useless or a wanker one time, before I realize it was stupid to say anything at all).

Sad thing about this community is no one is willing to take constructive criticism in public games, lots of times I give people suggestions and they just end up getting mad even if I'm being 100% sincere.

 

[oc]

SWAG AVATAR

 

[Valygar]

I think the best carry to begin is Viper:

-Only two actives : Q, good to harass without the creeps atacking you, and slow + damage to chase, and the ulti that is like a super Q.
-The passives give him more damage and sustainability (without the need for a lot of items).
-More or less easy to last hit, specially if you level up the passive a bit.

In my first ever matchmaking game I chose him and I was 22/2/7 . Mirana would have been too difficult for me (I tried her against bots, and well...). I know she has a good escape, but if you are a noob you will probably panic and don't make the jump right (or even forget to do it). At least that was what happened to me... Plus, Viper harassing with Q will make the life of your newbie rival in mid quite horrible.

 

[Sibylus]

Catching up on the semfinals and finals for the Star Championships (no spoilarz, avoiding the last few pages), and is it true that Valve are leaving in the Chen & Pudge fountain hook bug? Would be nice if true, it seems like it takes absolutely finesse timing to pull off.