Just so you know I would enjoy furthering our debate, however I am currently in Anne Taylor Loft with my wife and wish I had a Vita for times like this.
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Sony in big trouble with PS Vita, Portable market in perm decline, rotting - Forbes
- Thread starter marc^o^
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Wait, what makes you think that moving to F2P/subscription is suddenly going to eliminate the phenomenon of a select few developers reaping the benefits of the model while the rest fight for scraps?
I see no reason why the two can't simply co-exist. Bigger publishers and bigger studios make the bigger games, while everyone else moves to F2P and smaller games. Why must everything go in one and only one direction?
Vita's biggest hurdle is its infancy and lack of software.
If Sony invest to build a critical mass by hook or by crook, then it will remain a formidable platform because of the avid PS gaming user base. It may not catch up to 3DS or iOS in numbers but these platforms may not be able to touch Vita too because of its higher specs and focused entertainment experience.
walking fiend
Member
And based on what? I am pretty sure PC software market is actually expanding, Steam specially, and TES set a new record less than a month ago. It is like saying MMOs were dead once WoW made it into the market, because all other MMOs combined <<< WoW. It just happens that CoD is a very popular game, it is only expectable for it to cut into sales of other games, or like FIFA cutting into PES market, or Mario into every other platformer market, etc.
Some genres aren't as popular as before, but this too had happened before, like adventure genre dying post Syberia (which strangely is being revived somewhat recently)
Lower software sales are mostly correlated to the Wii under-performing, which makes only short of half the installed base of the home consoles and so obviously is impacting the overall market; and also DS being in its 7 year on the market, which counted most of the software sale on the handheld side. HD gaming is as good as it could get.
Where did I say I won't buy a Vita because of iPad. I have 2 iPads and I will most likely buy a Vita as well. It's the same old multi-console story.
The trick of adding Android support is to take away consumers' concerns. It is but a hygiene factor for Vita. With it, you don't really win the war. But without it, you'll be perceived as a lower status. Nonetheless, it makes Vita more useful to more people.
If Vita can do most of Android's functions via PS Suite, that's fine too but involves more work.
[scratch head]
Why does NetFlix need to be as big as gaming? It consumes 1/3 of Internet bandwidth after dinner. Half of the active people on my friends list watch NetFlix. It's just one option out of so many entertainment options. It runs on most devices.
Your Blu-ray knowledge is also outdated. You can download digital movies with BR movie purchase these days. Everyone is trying to stake a claim in the digital entertainment space today.
OnLive is just one means to core gaming. Even if you can't afford better Internet, other people can. They enjoy better surfing and VoD experiences at the same time. With the low OnLive fee, they also get to play core games on iPad, Xperia Play, PC.
It is a viable option even when iOS and Android dominate.
I agree with this, which is why in the beginning I mentioned "depending on your expectations." I expect Vita to basically do what the PSP did, it will have a solid userbase but it won't really be a threat to the 3DS, but by the end of it's life cycle Sony will have made a tidy profit from it. It's just not going to change the dynamic with the 3DS is my point.
charlequin
Banned
Err... why? Literally the only thing a home console has over a tablet right now is more powerful hardware built in. The closed-system operating systems that both types of devices run on are very similar; they have very similar sets of interfaces (with tablets currently probably leading in terms of broad standards they directly support); the tablet software ecosystem is pretty comparable to the console DD ecosystem (and future tablets could support physical media software the same way something like the Vita does); both can output equivalent A/V signals and interact equally well with controllers.
When you compare a tablet to something like a PC then there are some real differences (in terms of open vs. closed platforms) that come into play... but a console? It's really only the desire for more technically advanced graphics/CPU that distinguish them.
RoninChaos
Member
Because Sony doesn't give a fuck. They'll get money anyway they can.
well first of all, it is 2x more money, for less ability.
then you have other things like you would have to have your tablet docked when you want to watch TV... whats the point of that?
Then you dont have all the services, features of consoles either. No Blu-Ray, No advanced sound/video outputs, etc, etc.
Buying an tablet for $500-$700, to do things that $99-$250 hardware can do much better, is pretty limited thinking... ie it doesnt happen in real life.
3DS and Vita may influence each other from developers' perspective. There will be some overlap because of their common gaming focus. I have a feeling they may overlap more than PS3 vs Wii though.
The freaky part of Vita is the PSP emulator holes. It's a little hard to see what will come out of those homebrew hacks right now. Personally, I prefer Sony adopt an open approach to Vita and partner with other companies, including potential competitors like OnLive and Steam, to hop on board. It may be hard for executives to justify those moves right now but in the long run, I think it will help all.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
It's starting to look as if people have lost all capacity to estimate technology's "worth" and rather have turned to brands only as their economic values.
Honestly, I think that is a really dangerous state for the market to be in, since it basically erodes the playing field for competition.
The UMD->Vita transfer program is more a question of publisher rights and goals. The UMD Passport program in Japan was open to all Sony partners, but only the small guys came in. The larger publishers like Capcom, Square-Enix did not participate it in as far as I know.
Now if these companiese refuse to offer discounts for UMD Passport. Then it is probably out of the question for them to offer free UMD->Vita conversion.
I don't know man. People can use Tablets for more stuff. And smaller tablets are cheaper. They are viable and dedicated entertainment platform as far as I am concerned. I think many families will see it that way.
While they may not be able to take on nextgen home consoles directly, they may be able to subsume the low-end technical platforms like Nintendo's old/current consoles, especially for the casual gaming families. The loyal Nintendo user base will still stick around for the first party games. WiiU will attempt to re-establish the differences between iOS/Android and Nintendo though.
Wolves Evolve
Member
The iOS story in a nutshell.
Is anyone really surprised by this news?
iOS and Android are going to make traditional portable gaming obsolete in another couple years. Nintendo and Sony should double down and figure out a way to preserve their sacred cow -- the console. Because once the tablet/phone can get PS3/360 quality visuals, the traditional console will be on notice too.
I hate it.
But it's reality.
iOS and Android are going to make traditional portable gaming obsolete in another couple years. Nintendo and Sony should double down and figure out a way to preserve their sacred cow -- the console. Because once the tablet/phone can get PS3/360 quality visuals, the traditional console will be on notice too.
I hate it.
But it's reality.
AdventureRacing
Member
Or at least what some people like to tell themselves anyway. Apple hasn't always been this dominant, maybe there is a reason their products got so popular in the first place?
Nowadays i think there are a lot of people who buy apple products just to be cool. However that doesn't mean they aren't producing a quality product.
I think what smartphone gaming will end up doing is forcing the "portable vs. console" system we've had for the last two decades to disappear, in favor of a "dedicated game machine vs. convergence device" system.
If you own a smartphone, you can get compelling gaming experiences on the go. However, there are some experiences that no smartphone will ever be able to provide (because of screen size, hardware, buttons and so forth). Therefore there's a market for dedicated game machines, that may or may not be portable. But there is no real reason to own a PS3, a Vita and an iPhone as opposed to just a Vita and an iPhone or just a PS3 and an iPhone. The format difference between the PS3 and Vita is blurred. They both give similar experiences yet they are two different devices with two different game formats. The portability factor has become less of an issue since a smartphone addresses that need rather well.
So what I think will happen is that we will see portables and consoles unite into a single device that functions in both scenarios. The Wii U is an indication of going in that direction, although in an incomplete way.
If Sony or Microsoft release their next consoles as tablet + docking station products, then the industry will have adapted to the changing technological landscape.
And for all those who think smartphone gaming is a threat to "hardcore" gaming, you have no reason to worry. Millions of people buy and cherish hardcore console games for a lot of money. Billions of dollars worth of consumer demand isn't going to disappear because you have Angry Birds for $0.99 now.
If you own a smartphone, you can get compelling gaming experiences on the go. However, there are some experiences that no smartphone will ever be able to provide (because of screen size, hardware, buttons and so forth). Therefore there's a market for dedicated game machines, that may or may not be portable. But there is no real reason to own a PS3, a Vita and an iPhone as opposed to just a Vita and an iPhone or just a PS3 and an iPhone. The format difference between the PS3 and Vita is blurred. They both give similar experiences yet they are two different devices with two different game formats. The portability factor has become less of an issue since a smartphone addresses that need rather well.
So what I think will happen is that we will see portables and consoles unite into a single device that functions in both scenarios. The Wii U is an indication of going in that direction, although in an incomplete way.
If Sony or Microsoft release their next consoles as tablet + docking station products, then the industry will have adapted to the changing technological landscape.
And for all those who think smartphone gaming is a threat to "hardcore" gaming, you have no reason to worry. Millions of people buy and cherish hardcore console games for a lot of money. Billions of dollars worth of consumer demand isn't going to disappear because you have Angry Birds for $0.99 now.
Last Hearth
Member
Of course you're right, that's precisely the argument in favor of iOS and Android games, that the #1 utilitarian value that portable consoles offer can be offered by the smartphones at a much lower price.
There's a lot of hair splitting over what a tablet is and isn't and I attribute it to people still not knowing what the fuck to do with a tablet. I like to use the term "box" to describe a Von Neumann computer because every device ever has the same properties of a CPU, RAM, external storage, inputs, outputs and in our modern age networking.
If you take a game console and attach a battery and a touchscreen you get a tablet. They are both boxes, "tablet" is a property of the box.
In the same vein they are computers. If anyone had any other stupid idea then I'm sure Windows 8 will put that to rest. Take a netbook and replace the keyboard with a touchscreen, you get a tablet.
The input, outputs, form factor and platform are what make devices interesting and this has been true for quite some time. People clearly aren't buying tablets (or any other device these days) for their "box" properties. In the tablet market consumers are looking at platforms like the App Store and Amazon digital libraries.
Any company stupid enough to simply release a powerful "box" next gen is going to die a quick death. What makes Wii interesting despite the clear lack of power? The motion controls. Sure you could rig up some attachment to your tablet but it's not really a tablet then. Nobody is bundling motion controllers with tablets and nobody is going to make motion control games for a tablet just because it might be possible to hook one up. Even PC games don't always support gamepads despite them existing for decades. But also consoles are deeply ingrained platforms. This is something relatively new to PC and general computing which is probably why the media are flipping out about it but we've seen it for ages. Why buy a 360 over a PS3 or vise-versa if they are very similar boxes? Because of the exclusives. It's hard to replace one box with another when that other box's platform doesn't have the same content.
If you take a game console and attach a battery and a touchscreen you get a tablet. They are both boxes, "tablet" is a property of the box.
In the same vein they are computers. If anyone had any other stupid idea then I'm sure Windows 8 will put that to rest. Take a netbook and replace the keyboard with a touchscreen, you get a tablet.
The input, outputs, form factor and platform are what make devices interesting and this has been true for quite some time. People clearly aren't buying tablets (or any other device these days) for their "box" properties. In the tablet market consumers are looking at platforms like the App Store and Amazon digital libraries.
Any company stupid enough to simply release a powerful "box" next gen is going to die a quick death. What makes Wii interesting despite the clear lack of power? The motion controls. Sure you could rig up some attachment to your tablet but it's not really a tablet then. Nobody is bundling motion controllers with tablets and nobody is going to make motion control games for a tablet just because it might be possible to hook one up. Even PC games don't always support gamepads despite them existing for decades. But also consoles are deeply ingrained platforms. This is something relatively new to PC and general computing which is probably why the media are flipping out about it but we've seen it for ages. Why buy a 360 over a PS3 or vise-versa if they are very similar boxes? Because of the exclusives. It's hard to replace one box with another when that other box's platform doesn't have the same content.
I disagree. Have you actually used a PSV? It's substantially different from the PSP in interface, capabilities and input methods. Yes it still has buttons and stick(s) but beyond those things it's a whole new ballgame. Exhibit A would be Little Big Planet for the Vita. There isn't another device on the market that could play that game as the Vita version uses all of the available input and control methods in fun and original ways. Pushing blocks from the front and back of the screen to build a "tower" so your sackboy can climb to the top is just one example.
"Safe" as you call it would have been a more powerful PSP with a second thumbstick. The PSV is quite abit more than that. And just like with the original DS it will take some time for developers to come to grips with how to use the hardware's capabilities in fun and interesting ways. Once they do though there will be some amazing gaming experiences to be had. Little Big Planet Vita is just the first of what I hope will be many original experiences to be had on the Vita.
*Note I have actually played LBP Vita and I'm not just talking out of my posterior here*
Calling portable gaming doomed because Vita is stumbling out of the gates is as ridiculous as calling console gaming doomed when PS3 stumbled out of the gates. Expensive systems with no blockbuster software has a hard time selling. This is status quo for the videogame industry and not a sign of some imminent collapse. 3DS was an expensive system with no blockbuster software at a point as well, but it fixed both those problems and is now doing great. (Better than great in Japan where the numbers that triggered this thread came from.)
dream
Member
Right - user experience is paramount. And that's scary to a lot of companies because UX is this nebulous thing that encompasses hardware, software, design, and supporting ecosystem -- it's literally everything working in unison so that the user doesn't have to think about what they're doing.
I'm not convinced many consumer electronics companies really know how to react to that.
charlequin
Banned
Well, we're not talking about today, we're talking about eventually. The entire discussion here is about future convergence, not anything to do with current models -- obviously you can't sub an iPad 2 in for a PS3 right now.
The cost issue will become less with every passing year; in ten years there's no reason it would necessarily be an issue at all.
Sure, yes, tablets won't ever play optical disc formats, although even BRD is a format with a fundamentally limited lifespan and one that's unlikely to be so market-relevant in a few years that this sort of absence will matter much.
What advanced sound/video outputs would be technically difficult to put on a tablet? People preferentially do everything over HDMI now anyway and there's no technical reason whatsoever you can't output 1080p video and 7.1 sound from a tablet device.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
While I agree with most things you say above, there's something to be added I think. Actually, two things:
1) The only thing that allows tablets to get anywhere close to consoles in terms of computational power is the faster 'generational' turnaround (or lack of generations altogether, if you like). Whether that's good or bad is debatable, I'll address it shortly. Otherwise, the semiconductor industry will always be able to pack more oomph per higher wattage. Which brings us to the second (and more interesting point):
2) Due to both higher watt budgets *and* similar a-generation-ness as with tablets, one can argue that PC's have been the most powerful 'consoles' during most of the time. So how come they have not been the better game medium all around? Which is where we return to the subject of generations:
Console generations are an essential trait of the industry: they basically define it. Why?
Because nobody can produce serious-effort games faster than what it takes for such games to be produced today. A serious-effort game takes anything between a year and 3-4 years to be made. And this can't be sped up by throwing more resources at it - there are certain asymptotes in product development where things start to become just more expensive than getting sped up. Console generations allow developers to get a couple or so shots at a serious-effort game before the rules of engagement change again.
Now, can you imagine Apple withholding from its next year's (this year's?) ipad iteration just to give developers some chance at serious-effort games? Right, neither can I.
Based on what we know so far, Vita is "safe" because it is built on mass developer feedback. Things that they want are included but features that they dislike are downplayed or removed (see DRM). Unknown factors are tested by building game prototypes for quick validation.
The developers didn't think EyeToy was a big deal when Dr. Marks showed them prototypes years ago. The Japanese developers also shunted network and social games when Phil Harrison was at helm. Early PS3 had radical ideas embodied in Cell and Game 3.0. While Sony must have suffered and worked extremely hard for years to accommodate Cell, open PSN network and hardware, and UGC. But they actually made Sony stand out because they stuck to their guns and delivered.
Vita currently looks rather conservative. Back touch is but a side feature; not fundamental to the ecosystem. I hope they don't forget to introduce new experiences and benefits. I also hope they stick to Vita and PS Move to fit them properly into the future of PS.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
The only reason why PC gaming didn't replace console gaming in Japan and North America is due to:
#1 The headaches of upgrading. Not all computers can run the same games, and not all computers can play all the latest games for as long as others
#2 Complexity of getting games to run (patches, bugs, compatibility, etc.)
#3 Price, computers dedicated to gaming are more expensive than consoles
If gaming PC's cost $400, average hardware can play any game on moderate settings for at least 4 years, and all games were on a STEAM like service you would see people migrate to consoles.
This could very well likely be a reality in the not so distant future. The Law of Diminishing returns has fallen on gaming. Hardware is mattering less and less as the benefits become less apparent. Modern PC CPUs can do pretty much any type of gameplay you can through at them. Graphics are marching toward CG level. All the while even the lightest modern laptop or the latest cell phone can play games on a level not so far from them. Generations (both console and PC) are getting notably longer. At this point in time all three console successors would be out by now. Yet as it stands now none of them are in any part of the globe. Add in the towering development costs and you arguably have a stagnation in terms of harnessing in raw power in games.
The game is starting to change. And the effects of that could be significant. Just look at what happened to the arcades once consoles became cheaper, more powerful, with games costing half or even a fraction of what they once were.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I would argue that 3DS is actually the "safe" system and Vita is the "risky" one.
Are you talking about doing that by plugging a tablet in to a TV and speaker system with wires or putting it in a dock that's connected to the TV? Because that doesn't make sense when so many people use their tablets on their laps while they watch TV. I'm afraid I don't see why people in the future are going to want their tablets to do everything when there are so many advantages in having at tabet and a console or other media box that sits under the TV and is permanently connected to it with the best available AV inputs.
It's actually because Sony do not have the legal right to give away digital licenses to PSP games without the publisher's permission, and the publishers have no incentive to give away digital licenses for free.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Sony should lead by example then. Make 1st party transfers free as a goodwill gesture, really try and encorage PSP enthusiasts to upgrade to Vita.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Phones and Tablets have killed portable gaming for me, I'm happy playing the cream of the iOS crop for between 0.99c to under $10 a go, I've no intention of picking up a Vita (Or 3DS for that matter).
I also think that the real head spinner will come in a couple of years, when phone & tablet hardware gets powerful enough to replace portable and home console gaming for the majority of casual gamers.
One device, carry it and use as an all round communications / data / gaming device, at home plug it straight into your TV, and either attach a controller (via bluetooth or similar) and play at home or use it as your media device.
Admit it, you know it's coming to this.
Developers s and publishers will adapt, they'll have to.
I also think that the real head spinner will come in a couple of years, when phone & tablet hardware gets powerful enough to replace portable and home console gaming for the majority of casual gamers.
One device, carry it and use as an all round communications / data / gaming device, at home plug it straight into your TV, and either attach a controller (via bluetooth or similar) and play at home or use it as your media device.
Admit it, you know it's coming to this.
Developers s and publishers will adapt, they'll have to.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Like a stereo cd system versus a dock or laptop connected to the speakers?
Is it just me or everything people here seem to want tablets to be is exactly what laptops have been and are currently?
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
This is the problem I see with Vita. It's as if Sony has learned absolutely nothing from what happened last generation; however it also seems Sony is perfectly content by matching and surpassing the PSP's hardware sales (I can't find the exact article, but they've said this themselves before).
This is also a problem I have with the Vita personally, as I don't really want a console on the go. I want a handheld for handheld games. I want games like Pushmo where I can play for 5-10 minutes or so and turn it off and that's relatively easy to do with the 3DS, especially with the sleep mode function.
There's definitely an audience for the Vita; the PSP proved that, but damn, Sony tries to do everything but they can't. You either stick to the core consumer (which is a smaller market) or you expand and make it more mainstream to compete with the 3DS. Sony chose the narrow market.
frAntic_Frog
Member
i thought sony had been gearing more PSP/Vita games towards pick-up-and-play model....like patapon or god of war etc but what ends up happening are the core PSP gamers complain that said games are too short (4-5 hours looooong???? waaaaahhhh!?!).....seems like those gamers dont know what the heck they want or they want games playable in short bursts....yet lasts 40 hours
*confused.gif*
*confused.gif*
There's an underlying assumption that hw-growth in tablet-form factor is unlimited, and we're already hitting the battery and thermal wall, with neither advancing at the pace of the rest of the tech.Osiris said:
Not to say that we won't eventually solve that, but right now what we know of thermal-output and battery growth hinges on experimental tech that hasn't seen the light of day in anything resembling mass-market tech.
Concepts of this type usually assume you can "upgrade" the power when you dock your tablet, but that adds a software problem we're yet to solve as well.
But the ecosystem on Vita is clearly open to the rest, that's what PSSuite is all about, and it's building on what they already did with Minis. I'm not sure why people insist hw somehow defines the library, it certainly doesn't on the phones.Haziqonfire said:
I like how many journalists and analysts loved to tell the story of the Wii enticing casual gamers who'll then migrate to the more "hardcore" systems like 360 or PS3 once they look for more fleshed out experiences and less shovelware to wade through. If there's any truth to this line of thinking, the same thing could (or should) apply to smartphone gaming as well.
Yes, IMHO, it is a "safer" system than Vita because Nintendo dropped its price. The "bold" glassless 3D move seems like a non-event in the end.
However the cheaper price made it more "ok" to be safe (because it may end up replacing DS instead of becoming another "pillar").
.
Is there really a controller market for android/ios? Honestly until they sort that issue out and standardize it, there really isn't much of a real threat to the console/handheld market. You can only go so far with touchscreen controls. I almost see it as the wii a few years back. Everyone in the world was touting it as the new shift in game design and everything would move to motion controls and that didn't really pan out once the gimmick wore off.
I say all this typing on a tablet... (which is still annoying as hell to type on)
Is there really a controller market for android/ios? Honestly until they sort that issue out and standardize it, there really isn't much of a real threat to the console/handheld market. You can only go so far with touchscreen controls. I almost see it as the wii a few years back. Everyone in the world was touting it as the new shift in game design and everything would move to motion controls and that didn't really pan out once the gimmick wore off.
I say all this typing on a tablet... (which is still annoying as hell to type on)
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I see that the Sony tablet is now a flop and Sony have had to cut the price by $100.
http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/st...=10151&langId=-1&identifier=S_Tablet_S_Series
So I guess they are prepared to cut deep to get any sales.
http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/st...=10151&langId=-1&identifier=S_Tablet_S_Series
So I guess they are prepared to cut deep to get any sales.
Someone in the OT picked it up, it's no wonder it isn't selling:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457147
I also haven't seen ads for this thing here(Netherlands) while the Samsung ads air during every commercial break.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
who would buy a sony tablet?
Even if it had less issues there's the problem of why you should want it over an iPad or whatever. Didn't have a price advantage until just now, power wasn't that different as I recall, resolution/size are the same... I can see why you'd want a Transformer Prime over an iPad easily, and the Kindle Fire/nook tablet aim for a different niche. Far as I can tell the Tablet S may just be more aesthetically pleasing, and maybe you want to play PS1 games on a tablet? Better to look elsewhere.[Nintex];33928057 said:
Why??because Nintendo cant afford to build expensive systems?
I was interested and looked up reviews, the biggest fault is the screen. They made it plastic instead of gorilla glass(see Samsung phones/iPads) so it scratches easily.
Both Nintendo and Sony took little risk. Nintendo kept all their buttons, control options the same, except for adding a gyro-sensor at the last minute and an analog stick and they kept the basic design the same. The only 'innovation' they added was the 3D screen which only ads something to the visuals instead of the functionality of the device.
Sony took the PSP, made it more high-end with new chips and added all the control options they could think of. I'd say the PSP Go was a bigger gamble(and didn't work out so it's obvious as to why they abandoned that route).
can't afford? What makes you think that?