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Dota 2 Beta Thread: [Brewmaster]

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Sebulon3k said:
Does he really consider Rupture a difficult ability for a new player to use? On the topic of Invoker, aren't more then half his skills skill shots? I always felt like the difficulty in playing against a good Invoker, was how unpredictable he is, which makes it difficult to face him, never really know what skills he's going to come at you with, although it becomes a bit easier to predict depending no the build they go, but once you know, it becomes a bit easier to counter.

That Morello guy seems to like to exaggerate, and bring up points that just aren't true, like saying only a few Invoker spells are useful, when in reality there are only 2 that could be considered filler.
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He probably says that cause the recent metas love emp tornado over other builds. But that might be changing cause mana boots are causing him to get picked less.
 
HK-47 said:
The worst part is the whole burden of knowledge thing is only a problem for LoL cause they decided to go with charging for champions. Unless someone pays money or the champion is in rotation than there is a burden of knowledge cause the player has no way to play the hero himself in practice to learn what he or she does. However Dota has all heroes enabled so any hero can be fooled around with in practice mode. So the person facing Invoker only has to enable wtf mode and go spam Sunstrike on creeps for 20 minutes to learn what the hero does. Obvious it takes more to play him, but this seems to be mostly directed at a player facing Invoker.
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I think he's arguing more that for players who have to face the Invoker there is no indication of which skill he can use as to in LoL there's glowing and shit like that.

I'm not exactly sure how the Invoker works myself but can't you click on him and see which 2 skills he has hotkey'd? Or can he still use the other skills without having them as a hotkey?
 
Sebulon3k said:
Does he really consider Rupture a difficult ability for a new player to use? On the topic of Invoker, aren't more then half his skills skill shots? I always felt like the difficulty in playing against a good Invoker, was how unpredictable he is, which makes it difficult to face him, never really know what skills he's going to come at you with, although it becomes a bit easier to predict depending no the build they go, but once you know, it becomes a bit easier to counter.

That Morello guy seems to like to exaggerate, and bring up points that just aren't true, like saying only a few Invoker spells are useful, when in reality there are only 2 that could be considered filler.
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to be fair, Invokers basically only run Quas/Wex in competitive games for most of the early to mid game, meaning any spell with Exort is basically useless until you start leveling it up.
 
HK-47 said:
He probably says that cause the recent metas love emp tornado over other builds. But that might be changing cause mana boots are causing him to get picked less.
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Ultimoo said:
to be fair, Invokers basically only run Quas/Wex in competitive games for most of the early to mid game, meaning any spell with Exort is basically useless until you start leveling it up.
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Yes, but towards the later stages of the game, usage of the other skills definitely happens, namely Ghost Walk, Deafening Blast, and Ice Wall. I'm not saying that the EMP / Tornado build isn't popular right now, but saying that every other skill is situational isn't exactly correct. Haven't seen a recent competitive Invoker game, but don't people often use Cold Snap early as well in order to harass / secure kills? At least from what I've noticed playing with some NAdota people.
 
Hylian7 said:
His argument is "Seasoned veterans will have an advantage over new players with him", while LoL's runes is just a cemented-in version of that.
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yo son, that +3 health regen ain't gonna make up that skill difference between you and I, bring it on!
 
I certainly wouldn't want a game with nothing save heroes of Invoker-level complexity, but they have their place. He's a one-of-a-kind love letter to the diehard player, and that's great. That the LoL devs wouldn't suffer the presence of even one single hero like him, that's a shame (Riot headed by designer tyrants? Do they reign from thrones of blood?).
 
Ultimoo said:
yo son, that +3 health regen ain't gonna make up that skill difference between you and I, bring it on!
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Think about early game. You buy two Iron Branches right off the bat while someone on the other team has those benefits without spending the gold on them.
 
Corky said:
So this might be early but any idea what next weeks hero might be? Taking into consideration the texture work we have of existing non-implemented heroes.
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Clinkz Probably. However there has been mention that they want to add in more staple competitive heroes and both Obsidian Destroyer and Lycan have files being added recently. Personally I hope its not Lycan.
 
Hylian7 said:
His argument is "Seasoned veterans will have an advantage over new players with him", while LoL's runes is just a cemented-in version of that.
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It seems more like he's saying "a good Invoker will be overly flexible compared to other champions and it's difficult to read what his spells could be" I don't really see new players coming into the equation in his argument.
 
Hylian7 said:
Think about early game. You buy two Iron Branches right off the bat while someone on the other team has those benefits without spending the gold on them.
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Actually, its more like you buying a second set of starting items. Its more then just two Iron Branches, its like a Ring of Health and a Buckler.
 
Sebulon3k said:
The bitter truth of what you were saying, was that MoM on SK, will be more detrimental then beneficial, and will often kill you, so if you enjoy dying, then yes it will be a fun game, but I don't think that's the case for everyone. If you were saying it in jest then that's understandable. The general bitter truth is that, certain items are fun to tinker with, but they will often not win you games and piss off your team when you make them, like if an SK made MoM, I'd be upset.
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Yeah, except I never said it would be good. Even worse, I explicitly stated the opposite because you seemed confused, for some reason. I only said it would be fun. As in, fun to mess around with. I didn't feel the need to spell it all out before because FUN. What's wrong with fun? Apparently a whole hell of a lot, in the world of Dota.

The "bitter" truth is that for some reason you had trouble grasping the concept that something doesn't have to be useful to be fun. They are not mutually inclusive concepts. When Synderen and his team were doing those bizarre "quests" yesterday, where they could only, for example, level their second skill and ultimate, were you similarly upset? Because it's the same concept. And it's not just you. This whole thread is rife with people shitting down someone's throat because they do something against the status quo. It's a damn shame. I'm not like, holding it against you or something... but it's kind of frustrating to see it happen again and again, yeah?

This is, after all, a video gaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
 
Spookie said:
Speaking of Invoker. Not sure how I feel about that mana drain. It's something else.
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It maxes out at 400 mana burnt though. Magic stick, arcane boots, soul ring, or just getting a larger mana pool all help out a lot. Easiest way to deal is just increasing your own mana pool. If it's an invoker who rushed to max Wex first, tornado and EMP are the main spells he'll be good for.

Ultimoo said:
to be fair, Invokers basically only run Quas/Wex in competitive games for most of the early to mid game, meaning any spell with Exort is basically useless until you start leveling it up.
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I believe Q+E builds were somewhat popular too... At some point in time... The idea being to get Q and E to level 4 for double forge spirits (using sun strike to assist on kills with sidelanes early on, cold snap for harassing on your own lane), then max Wex from that point on for teamfight crowd control. Not sure how he really is balance-wise these days, but I think Alacrity used to be pretty brokenly good for just one point of Wex early on. Seems the initial damage + mana cost have been nerfed since the last time I played.

PS. It's a long ass time since I last played dota before this jan (2+ years).
 
You know why Invoker is fun to play? Because he's a unique type of carry. What LoL lacks and what DotA has is many different viable types of carry.

There is PotM who carries on sheer utility. There are caster carries like Krob or Necrolyte who carry by outlasting the other team. Spectre, who carried by abusing the hell out of damage return. Necrolic who carried by essentially doing the opposite of what Spectre did. Tinker who carries by refreshing cooldowns on spells and items, Queen of Pain who carries on sheer mobility. Invoker is another one in the line of caries, and his way of carrying is unique too. When invoke is down to 5 second cooldown, it's really like playing Janna, except you also do damage. The allure of Invoker isn't that he's "complex", it's the fact that you can literally be a "caster carry". Late game, he actively carries with spells and he has a lot more tools at his disposal than the typical caster. There is actually something really cool about the concept of the Invoker, he's not just there to appease the hardcore players.

Also, I feel it's rather disingenuous to apply concepts like "anti-fun" and "burden of knowledge" to DotA. These concepts exist in LoL because Riot needs a framework for explaining the decisions they make as the developers of a game based on micro transactions. With someone as skilled at creating concepts as Zileas, I can definitely say that Riot succeeded in their goal. But these are not inspired by a desire to actually dig down to the truth of things. As such, they feel hollow compared to when Zileas outlined the concept of micromanagement back when Starcraft just came out. Honestly, I couldn't read past the part where Zileas was criticizing Kunkka's ult on "inefficient optimization". If a huge community favorite in DotA can be indicted under one or more of LoL's "design principles", then they aren't very good design principles.

Invoker makes perfect sense when you realize that the goal of DotA's developers was to serve the game rather than their bottom line. They didn't have to worry about the hero's accessibility or whether novice players would struggle to play against him. They just added something "cool" to the game. Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with caring primarily about the bottom line, but don't criticize other developers for not having the same goals as you.
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I found this in that linked League thread. I can hardly believe it.

It got a -5.
 
Togglesworlh said:
Yeah, except I never said it would be good. Even worse, I explicitly stated the opposite because you seemed confused, for some reason. I only said it would be fun. As in, fun to mess around with. I didn't feel the need to spell it all out before because FUN. What's wrong with fun? Apparently a whole hell of a lot, in the world of Dota.
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Like I said, if you find feeding yourself to the enemy team because you went a shitty build as fun then more power to you, make that MoM SK build.

Togglesworlh said:
The "bitter" truth is that for some reason you had trouble grasping the concept that something doesn't have to be useful to be fun. They are not mutually inclusive concepts. When Synderen and his team were doing those bizarre "quests" yesterday, where they could only, for example, level their second skill and ultimate, were you similarly upset? Because it's the same concept.
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No I don't give a shit what people do in their games that I'm not in, like I said;
Sebulon3k said:
The general bitter truth is that, certain items are fun to tinker with, but they will often not win you games and piss off your team when you make them, like if an SK made MoM, I'd be upset.
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If an SK on my team made MoM and he kept dying, which led to the loss, I'd be upset. It would go for any other "fun" build someone went, I find winning fun, the things that lead to wins are fun for me, like playing well and building items appropriate for the situation. If I feel like I want to bust out the Dagon Spiritbreaker, I'll do that shit in an In house, I won't do it in a Matchmaking game where people have certain expectations of the hero that I'm playing.
Togglesworlh said:
And it's not just you. This whole thread is rife with people shitting down someone's throat because they do something against the status quo. It's a damn shame. I'm not like, holding it against you or something... but it's kind of frustrating to see it happen again and again, yeah?
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This thread is rife with people shitting down people's throats because it's rife with people giving the dumbest advice and stating things that are blatantly stupid and parading them around as knowledge, it's really a damn shame when your playing a game with someone and they go a stupid build and justify it as correct because they read it would be a good idea in the DOTA 2 thread. That doesn't pertain to your MoM SK post, but it's frustrating to see other people say stuff like that sincerely, again and again, you know?
 
Togglesworlh said:
oh good lord you take this game way too seriously

WHATEVER MANNNNNN keep being angry and bitter if it pleases you
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I'm angry and bitter? Not even, but whatever
KuGsj.gif
, sorry for trying to be good at something I enjoy
 
if you ain't angry why you angry???

I like trying to improve myself and play well, too. I don't understand why that means I can't also enjoy messing around from time to time, or why you have to jump down my throat when I express such sentiments.. I'm not about to pull that shit in a solo queue, and I definitely wouldn't pull it with you (if we ever played together) because now I know you're a hardass about that sort of thing. d:
 
Togglesworlh said:
if you ain't angry why you angry???

I like trying to improve myself and play well, too. I don't understand why that means I can't also enjoy messing around from time to time, or why you have to jump down my throat when I express such sentiments.. I'm not about to pull that shit in a solo queue, and I definitely wouldn't pull it with you (if we ever played together) because now I know you're a hardass about that sort of thing. d:
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Private bot games exist for a reason.
 
Togglesworlh said:
I like trying to improve myself and play well, too. I don't understand why that means I can't also enjoy messing around from time to time, or why you have to jump down my throat when I express such sentiments.. I'm not about to pull that shit in a solo queue, and I definitely wouldn't pull it with you (if we ever played together) because now I know you're a hardass about that sort of thing. d:
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Eh dude, I just said if the consequences of going that build are what you find fun, then go ahead with it, you tried to imply I lacked comprehension, I said otherwise, and you called me mad, which is hilarious.
 
I play a lot of LoL, maybe that the reason that I just having a hard time trying to enjoy DOTA 2. Still trying my friends like the game, but I just don't enjoy it has much.
 
Togglesworlh said:
Yeah, except I never said it would be good. Even worse, I explicitly stated the opposite because you seemed confused, for some reason. I only said it would be fun. As in, fun to mess around with. I didn't feel the need to spell it all out before because FUN. What's wrong with fun? Apparently a whole hell of a lot, in the world of Dota.

The "bitter" truth is that for some reason you had trouble grasping the concept that something doesn't have to be useful to be fun. They are not mutually inclusive concepts. When Synderen and his team were doing those bizarre "quests" yesterday, where they could only, for example, level their second skill and ultimate, were you similarly upset? Because it's the same concept. And it's not just you. This whole thread is rife with people shitting down someone's throat because they do something against the status quo. It's a damn shame. I'm not like, holding it against you or something... but it's kind of frustrating to see it happen again and again, yeah?

This is, after all, a video gaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
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yo feeding might be fun, but certainly not useful. go have fun feeding somewhere else, most of us like having fun without your excessive feeding. when your "fun" is ruining everyone else's fun, who is the real jerk?
 
Cram it, cow. Ya ain't got nothin'.

Sebulon3k said:
Eh dude, I just said if the consequences of going that build are what you find fun, then go ahead with it, you tried to imply I lacked comprehension, I said otherwise, and you called me mad, which is hilarious.
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I didn't call you mad; I called you angry. Bitter, too. Specifically, angry and bitter.

You did (and clearly still do) lack comprehension, because it's not about this one specific instance. I find it kind of surprising, though, so I suspect you're just trolling me. Which is fine, I guess, but annoying. Not worth continuing this bullshit, though. Whatever.
 
Togglesworlh said:
Cram it, cow. Ya ain't got nothin'.



I didn't call you mad; I called you angry. Bitter, too. Specifically, angry and bitter.

You did (and clearly still do) lack comprehension, because it's not about this one specific instance. I find it kind of surprising, though, so I suspect you're just trolling me. Which is fine, I guess, but annoying. Not worth continuing this bullshit, though. Whatever.
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If you think it's angry and bitter to call out bad advice, I don't know what to say to you. Excuse us for trying to foster a community where decent advice is given.
 
Procarbine said:
If you think it's angry and bitter to call out bad advice, I don't know what to say to you. Excuse us for trying to foster a community where decent advice is given.
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Where did I ever mention anything about people giving advice, good or bad?

Puttin' words in my mouth, yo. Swag's the one who brought that up. Not me.
 
Togglesworlh said:
if you ain't angry why you angry???

I like trying to improve myself and play well, too. I don't understand why that means I can't also enjoy messing around from time to time, or why you have to jump down my throat when I express such sentiments.. I'm not about to pull that shit in a solo queue, and I definitely wouldn't pull it with you (if we ever played together) because now I know you're a hardass about that sort of thing. d:
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I think it is certainly "OK" to try out builds you would have more fun with, such as the MoM with SK. But if you are against a team of stunners and nukers, I would do your team a favor and build a BKB first. That way when you go charging in with that increased attack speed, you will actually get some decent hits in.

Going a little off topic, I love playing support heroes like Lich. I had a game where we had a Pudge pick, then a Shadowfiend and Bloodseeker pick. I was Lich, immediately bought a set of wards and courier, and said to the team, "OK Pudge, you can mid, I'll babysit Shadowfiend bottom, and Dazzle can babysit Bloodseeker top". We won the game easily.
 
I do enjoy Spirit Breaker, need to learn how to play him in a side lane. I do great in the middle, but just fail playing him in the side.
 
Someone was saying in inhouse spec chat there's ridiculous arguments in this thread about invoker including someone calling Q+E builds good nowadays, how can I not find this discussion? I was actually interested in reading this.

Oh, and I wish I had any idea who half the people in the inhouses actually are on GAF, not even half the people seem to use any name on steam even remotely similar to their GAF nickname...
 
Insured said:
Someone was saying in inhouse spec chat there's ridiculous arguments in this thread about invoker including someone calling Q+E builds good nowadays, how can I not find this discussion? I was actually interested in reading this.

Oh, and I wish I had any idea who half the people in the inhouses actually are on GAF, not even half the people seem to use any name on steam even remotely similar to their GAF nickname...
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blame archie, haly and ikuu then.
 
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