SerArthurDayne
Member
We found a pot of shit at the end of the rainbow. Now we have shit on our hands, and we question whether it was worth following that rainbow. Sure, we had good times on one hand, but on the other hand we have shit.
Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE
- Thread starter XANDER CAGE
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EC's now feeling regret about buying the books and comics. I didn't expect that. :/
MiamiWesker
Member
Your choices got the species there. Everything lead up to the assault on earth. your choices got the armies to help. Yes that pretty much added to a 10 second movie clip, I understand as I wanted much more resolution to what happened to each species.
The choices you make shape your game, I am pretty sure my ME3 was different from someone who got almost everyone killed in ME2. Your choices mattered, it didn't matter for the ending movie clip but it mattered throughout the game you played. Again its game vs ending movie clip, I rather have it shape my game than change the movie clip played at the end.
lastplayed
Member
Yeah but at the cost of any current or future galactic civilizations thanks to destroying the relays.
I would have been happy to bunker down with a conventional war... no matter how long and miserable it might've been.
SerArthurDayne
Member
Try and find the post that actually posits the theory that doing nothing but priority missions is the best solution. At least that way you don't fuck over the rest of the galaxy, and the ending doesn't change at all, unless you choose destroy and get a Shepard breathes ending.
And that was intentional.
It's a bit heartbreaking. I wanted answers, but they decided to give none.
MiamiWesker
Member
They are alive, that saved them. They lost space travel oh well, they have their lives. It stopped the cycle.
It seemed clear to me that which ever species started this whole thing got into some epic war with synthetics and knew if they kept advancing they would eventually eliminate all organic life in the universe. The best way they came up with preventing that was to built killer robots to kill all advanced life before they created advanced enough AI thus preserving organic life in the galaxy forever.
They explain two of those. They are made from the reaped civilizations, and their goal is to
What they really don't explain is the catalyst.
matrix-cat
Member
I figured the implication was that the Catalyst was a member of the race that built the Reapers, as a 'solution' for the pattern they'd observed whereby organic races build synthetic races and then the synthetic races kill them all. Whatever this race was decided that about 50,000 years is how long it takes for a race to progress to the level of technology where they can build artificial intelligences, so they built the Reapers to wipe out all advanced races every 50,000 years.
Which is all apparently proven to be bullshit since you can unite the Geth and the Quarians in Mass Effect 3, but you don't get the opportunity to bring that up with the Catalyst because... who the hell knows?
Turians and Quarians can't eat human food, so they're gonna starve. Krogan are going to end up killing everyone because of how aggressive they can get. Humans have a ruined planet.
And you do not see the logical flaw in that plan? The fact that you managed to see how peaceful the geth are and can even broker peace with the quarians does not make this kids statements on the inevitability war that's unlikely to happen ring hollow? Or that they are killing us with machines so we won't be killed with machines?
SerArthurDayne
Member
Or they could, you know, kill the AIs? Or monitor organic growth, and slap down any society that starts building AIs? That fails to explain the harvesting as well.
Also, if they are consistent with canon, blowing up the mass relays is like a solar system nuke. I don't have a problem with that as much as other people do because space magic.
I do have a problem with stranding every army that came to help, probably killing most of them as well as most colonists cut off from supply lines.
MiamiWesker
Member
Well yeah now knowing that the catalyst would blow up all ME relays it would be nice to keep all races on their system but that is hindsight. No one knew what the catalyst would do, it was the last attempt by all life to stop the reapers, it was an amazing moment.
Remember it is a game, it still had to function regardless of what choices you made. What happens if you dont recruit the races, is the end game harder or something, does nothing change? To me the story would not be the same, it was that unity between all that made my final battle so amazing.
However, how can anyone truly know that cycle will continue if it had been the Reapers themselves sustaining that notion and employing their tactics to reap/kill. It's a self fulfilling prophesy. It's a paradox and it's irritating that you couldn't tell the VI that it's extremely flawed.
The geth were leaving everyone the fuck alone until Sovereign came and started up shit, convincing them to attack organics.
SerArthurDayne
Member
Nothing changes. I could probably even get over that problem if Shepard made like a five minute warning call and said: Guys, thanks for coming. Humanity is now part of a Galactic Civilization. Hopefully we will be again one day. But the Mass Relays are about to blow up, and you have five minutes to go back home.
Would have sucked, but would have felt less empty.
Indeed. Though it does leave a sour taste in the mouth and it makes me pretty pissed that Bioware have half assed it with ending. Fucking 5 years, 3 whole games and they made such a shit ending. Not just the fans but Mass Effect itself, the whole story buildup, the great world they've built, it deserves much better than the horrible shit of an ending they made. It will never erase the 100+ hours of awesomeness I played in this series, but that 100+ hours of awesomeness is why I'm angry about the crap ending.
SerArthurDayne
Member
Basically my thoughts, and well stated.
matrix-cat
Member
The more I think about it the more it feels like the original Fallout 3 ending. You have to kill yourself at the end of that game because the designers didn't program in the option to have your radiation-immune buddy go into the chamber filled with radiation and press the button for you.
In Mass Effect 3 you have to basically destroy the galaxy because the designers didn't program in the ability to say to the Catalyst, "Hey, about five hours ago I brokered a peace treaty between the race of synthetics and their organic creators, they're best friends now, you should go and see it because Tali told me that they're sharing the planet and everything". The three possible endings in the game all feel like the 'bad' endings you'd get if you weren't able to unite the Geth and Quarians.
In Mass Effect 3 you have to basically destroy the galaxy because the designers didn't program in the ability to say to the Catalyst, "Hey, about five hours ago I brokered a peace treaty between the race of synthetics and their organic creators, they're best friends now, you should go and see it because Tali told me that they're sharing the planet and everything". The three possible endings in the game all feel like the 'bad' endings you'd get if you weren't able to unite the Geth and Quarians.
Jasper Avenue
Member
In my ending I actually made the choice to go straight into the beam, knowing full well that it would destroy all the mass relays, strand everyone around Earth, and possibly kill my team. That also may be why I'm actually alright with the ending. My Shepard set out to end the Reapers' cycle and that's what he did. I can see the ending being frustrating if you made one of the other 2 choices but for myself it was exactly what I expected.
MiamiWesker
Member
That race was different. Did you not see how different Javik viewed his war, to him all AI should be destroyed as well. Maybe way back when the AI was ruthless, that species had no better way to deal with it. They put this crazy doomsday cycle in motion, they couldn't stop it, they couldn't foresee a future with good AI. They killed only advanced civilizations, organic life lived so the reapers were not the same as whatever synthetics the boy talked about, the reapers were basically their weapons.
As for what happens to the races, its war, no one knew what the catalyst was going to do. All you are doing is hindsight. It makes for a pretty crappy downer ending but that is what Bioware wanted. It is not confusing, it is not illogical, it was collateral damage that happened. I don't know why Bioware chose to do that but that is their choice to make.
For fucks sake, no one is complaining that they are surprised. They're complaining now none of it makes sense. Why does every ending destory the mass relays? Why was joker running away? Why can I not tell this shitty little kid whats what concerning synthetic-organic political relations? How to I tell him what he is telling me about reaper motivations simply CANNOT be true, or if it is, it's incredibly stupid.
Javik's advice for ANYTHING is to kill it. If he had a pet dog that he had trouble potty training, his first instinct would be to kill it. And that doesn't change the fact that you can't tell the kid that your synthetics aren't like that.
And yes it is, not knowing what happens doesn't give you a license to do whatever the fuck you want.
^I think the most obvious reason why the mass relays were destroyed is because they were a tool used by the Reapers specifically to "judge" a specie's evolutionary standing. Since they're no longer around, those creatures (eg, humans) wouldn't need them in their universe. They made travel easier, but they're not a requirement to live.
I was okay with the syntheses ending since it's probably the most resilient option. Everyone has bio/mechanical components. However, the way it was done is completely nonsensical. How can that even happen? Just space magic at play.
MiamiWesker
Member
Its a VI, it is pre programed, it wouldnt recognize if it was flawed or not.
SerArthurDayne
Member
I was least okay with the synthesis ending because it is space magic and it was the first one I got, accidentally.
To Wren:
There is a Garrus face fix, and a Chakwas (just the ME2 face I think) face fix that I know of.
I think the high res texture pack has some fixes that work for ME1, but if it does the actual textures it covers are probably pretty limited.
To Wren:
There is a Garrus face fix, and a Chakwas (just the ME2 face I think) face fix that I know of.
I think the high res texture pack has some fixes that work for ME1, but if it does the actual textures it covers are probably pretty limited.
ColonelColon
Member
The only choice that truly stops the Reapers is the "destroy" ending, which apparently has the major caveat of destroying all synthetic life. As far as I know, the Reapers survive in two of the three endings. Frankly, I still think the indoctrination theory is plausible. It seemed very odd to me that the only choice where the Reapers are defeated is presented as the renegade option. And the AI, Starchild, isn't being entirely forthright with Shepard. It tells Shepard that using the Crucible to destroy the Reapers will wipe out all synthetic life, including Shepard, yet destroying the Reapers actually gives you the only ending where Shepard survives. I guess this could all be explained by sloppy writing, but it would be an interesting twist if Shepard actually was being indoctrinated during the final sequence of the game. I don't see any other way this ending could be salvaged, and there are plenty of hints that this is a possibility.
Dacon
Banned
Yet somehow it was able to acknowledge that its plan would no longer work and acknowledge the new possibilities introduced by the catalyst. Star Child is more than a simple VI.
Also, where in the actual game is it outright stated that the reapers are the harvested species?
I know that's what was planned in the original endings and whatnot, but I don't ever remember this being explicitly stated in the game.
It's an AI, it can think for itself. Furthermore, it's far above even reapers in terms of sapience. It thought up that new option by itself.
MiamiWesker
Member
No clue why the Mass Relays explode, seems like a penalty or some fail safe to keep technology to a minimum.
Why was Joker running away, no clue obviously. Guess we will know in the DLC. It seemed to me that he was escaping the mass relay explosion.
The kid is VI, you cant tell it anything. Its pre programmed thing, you can't reason with it. How can it not be true, they explain in the ending. That is the story Bioware came up with, a race created reapers to kill advanced life to preserve organic life before they create advanced AI that would totally destroy all organic life. Stupid, yes.
Actually, the V.I. realized it was flawed the moment you talked to it. That's why it said the cycle wouldn't work.
What I mean is that you couldn't engage in any real dialogue with it or question its motives. You just had to accept what it said and JUMP INTO THE LASER.
MiamiWesker
Member
Yeah I have been reading about that, that is a pretty cool ending. Sounds better than what was explained to us.
Where are you getting the impression that it's a VI?
Because it can clearly think for itself. It made up the 3 solutions right there and then.
Dacon
Banned
That doesn't make any sense. How can a VI be preprogrammed for an option it never anticipated, i.e the crucible, and an organic infiltrating its platform.
It even thinks up a new solution to its "chaos" problem thanks to the crucible.
I always thought the ending was shit, but I'm still on my stance that the game is the best in the series. The first 40 hours is better than anything in ME1 and ME2. The combat, the music, the set pieces, and hell, even story (and by story I mean anything from plot to character dialogue).
I've been linked to this one, but haven't used it personally.
http://social.bioware.com/project/5275/#details
MiamiWesker
Member
Ok but it probably has billions of years of data to support what it was built to do. I doubt Shepard simply saying I "made peace like a week ago with AI" is going to change its mind. And the Geth is just one kind of AI, I am sure they are trying to stop what happens as technology keeps going and AI simply feels organic life needs to be eliminated. It would not make sense for the reapers to start the the cleaning after the organic life already made the super advanced AI. The point is to prevent it from happening.
Jasper Avenue
Member
I would have loved a face off with Harbinger at some point and maybe something like the Loyalty missions in ME2. Everything else was great.
MiamiWesker
Member
Yes, no harbinger was a horrible idea. I loved ME3, but I still enjoyed ME2 more. Maybe cause I played ME2 first in this series and cause it came with all DLC built in.
SerArthurDayne
Member
No, I think the indication is that it almost happened once, so it assumed it would happen again. Of course it is still a shitty plan because the Geth totally could have wiped out organics in 300 years if they had been trying. 50,000 years is so fucking arbitrary. It makes sense to allow people to develop, but not as a means to protect organics.
Apparently Joker-Harbinger fight was cut. Maybe that is why he disappeared? Maybe Joker picked up your squad while he was down there? We just spackled that plothole in!
Apparently Joker-Harbinger fight was cut. Maybe that is why he disappeared? Maybe Joker picked up your squad while he was down there? We just spackled that plothole in!
Shepard doesn't have 1 week of it supporting him. He witnessed that 300 years ago, from the very beginning, the geth didn't want any conflict. They are an entirely peaceful race from their conception. Can they rebel in the future? Sure. At some point in the future, you can go out and murder someone. SHould you be arrested and charged for an unproven possibility?
We have seen 0 evidence of any AI being harmful with the one exception that was specifically designed for it.
You are giving the Catalyst credence that he does not possess. Your just blindly trusting that he knows best when it's so fucking obvious he's wrong that it's literally in your face.
And now, imma sleep. I'm sure someone else will explain to you why your wrong if you insist on this argument.
Absolutely
Makes it all the more annoying how Bioware can make such a great experience then totallly fuck it all up
matrix-cat
Member
I thought the story was pretty excellent, but I really didn't care for the scaled back dialogue choices. Most of the time you don't even get into zoomed-in dialogue wheel mode, so you can't make any choices, and then when you do the vast majority of dialogue choices are those ones where there's an option for more information on the left that loops back around to where you were, and then a good or bad option. No Neutral options anywhere in the game, as far as I could see, and beyond a certain point in the game no Investigate prompts either. I saw maybe a dozen chances to use the blue and red Paragon and Renegade choices, and three of those were in the final encounter with The Illusive Man.
Shepard spends an extraordinary portion of the game just talking without your input. In ME1 and 2 Shepard was you, the player, whereas in ME3 she's a person who you have some limited control over.
and a final mission that resembles ME2 - "take" your whole crew by giving them "assignments" and give more impact with all the alliances you've collected. have them help you as well in some capacity. not just warp-in in a 10 sec cutscene.
MiamiWesker
Member
Of course the AI is wrong now, the reaper thing is a horrible idea but that is what the AI was built for. That is the knowledge it has, that is what its purpose was. Also the Geth were peaceful at first, but what happened. The organic life turned on them, what did the Geth immediately do, attack. What makes you think organic life will live peacefully, we don't, we make war, we are chaos. The Geth would feel threatened at some point by some race and then they will attack. It actually makes a lot of sense, organic life will NEVER live in peace.
I don't get this zero evidence thing, its a made up video game story. Bioware is telling you that there was evil AI that was going to destroy all life, they make up the story so that is what happened. There is no evidence to be had, they just told you.
I am just interpreting it as I see it, I dont see any wrong or right. You didn't write the story, you are no position to tell anyone is wrong or right.
I thought the first 3 hours were awful and the last 10 minutes were awful. I thought the fetch quests and scanning system were quite bad too. Main quest missions are the best in the series though yeah.
Are you playing it on PC? You can try to use a mod to tweak it a bit.
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