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[Drek]

His comment was that you buy a Wii with Wii Sports and you never buy another game, which is false. Is this comparison that hard for you?

Yep, I'm sure he actually thinks everyone who owns a Wii only owns Wii Sports and never bought another single game.

Fact is, all his comments hit home pretty damn accurately.

Nintendo has always been shit to third parties, especially third parties who aren't big enough to voice real concern. This was a problem with the NES. It was still a problem with the SNES. It was the main tool Sony leveraged to supplant the N64 with the PS1. It is why as soon as a real market leading alternatives were presented 3rd parties promptly snubbed Nintendo's offerings (GC and Wii).

This isn't about an arbitrary download limit or even required sales for payment. It is a problem with Nintendo's corporate culture with regards to 3rd parties. Nintendo makes systems to sell Nintendo games. Both the system and the games make Nintendo money. 3rd party support is an added bonus, not something Nintendo has ever particularly cared about or courted in an honest fashion.

 

[USC-fan]

I find the defensive tone of this thread rather creepy "don't insult my Nintendo!!"

The dev had a bad experience working with Nintendo, and he's not going to go through that again. Fair enough! And his "just a toy" comment is perfectly rational in the context of the statement: it's not like Nintendo platforms are some cash cow for third parties, it's actually a graveyard. Lots of Wii owners don't buy many games, and if they do, they buy Nintendo games. It's not worth kissing Nintendo's ass for such meager returns.

I wouldn't call it burning a bridge, Id call it drawing a line in the sand. He won't work with Nintendo with the current state of their certification process, and the current state of third party sales. If things change, maybe this dev will return.

It's not all that different from the mass exodus of third parties from Nintendo after the SNES era. They were too controlling, so devs went elsewhere. It's perfectly fair.

Bravo! great post.

Nintendo needs to learn from sony. PS3 online was shit when it launch and now its pretty much equal to MS besides the hour long updates and then installs.

 

[Grymm]

I agree. Doesn't mean he should spread outdated info as fact

What part of his description of his experience and his dislike of Nintendos online service is outdated? He recounted what happened and currently doesn't plan to develop anything for them any time soon. That's about as up to date as it gets on his perspective.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Didn't really help sales of most 3rd party games though.

what 3rd party games? The only high profile 3rd party titles I can think of for the Wii are the RE4 port and Monster Hunter Tri.

 

[Seraphinianus]

His comment was that you buy a Wii with Wii Sports and you never buy another game, which is false. Is this comparison that hard for you?

is having a normal discussion without resorting to baseless condescension that hard for you?

this thread, guys. this thread.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Ugh.

The infuriating thing here isn't his legitimate complaints about the WiiWare restrictions, it's the position he's taking - "We don't do Nintendo development" based on that experience, ignoring the changes in policy for their evolving DD systems. File size is no apparently no longer an issue on the 3DS eShop - games there seem to have no obvious upper limit - and the minimum sales threshold appears to have been removed since DSiWare launched.

Nintendo's certification is clearly an issue - they're notoriously strict, from what I remember - but the other problems he mentions have been fixed. To take the position he does is fair enough - his crap experience has obviously soured him on Nintendo platforms - but it is also fair to point out that his complaints have been addressed.

Instead, plenty in this thread - who seem equally ignorant - are happy to take this complaint and what little they know of Nintendo's DD policies ("LULZ 40MB limit!") to beat the company with.

You want them to change? Then hammer them on legitimate, current issues!

 

[walking fiend]

Yep, I'm sure he actually thinks everyone who owns a Wii only owns Wii Sports and never bought another single game.

Fact is, all his comments hit home pretty damn accurately.

Nintendo has always been shit to third parties, especially third parties who aren't big enough to voice real concern. This was a problem with the NES. It was still a problem with the SNES. It was the main tool Sony leveraged to supplant the N64 with the PS1. It is why as soon as a real market leading alternatives were presented 3rd parties promptly snubbed Nintendo's offerings (GC and Wii).

This isn't about an arbitrary download limit or even required sales for payment. It is a problem with Nintendo's corporate culture with regards to 3rd parties. Nintendo makes systems to sell Nintendo games. Both the sysething Nintendo has ever particularly cared about or courted in an honest fashion.

So the reason that most developers moved from Nintendo to Sony [while they strongly supported NES/SNES] was because Nintendo hates 3rd party support and it wasn't because N64 being a poorly made system with poor design choices?

And how does it come that many developers are moving from PSP to 3DS? [well, those who make portable games anyway]

---
anyhow; I think illogical and outdated comments brings out similar type of discussions, I think I should stop.

 

[smuldegspaj]

Yep, I'm sure he actually thinks everyone who owns a Wii only owns Wii Sports and never bought another single game.

Fact is, all his comments hit home pretty damn accurately.

Nintendo has always been shit to third parties, especially third parties who aren't big enough to voice real concern. This was a problem with the NES. It was still a problem with the SNES. It was the main tool Sony leveraged to supplant the N64 with the PS1. It is why as soon as a real market leading alternatives were presented 3rd parties promptly snubbed Nintendo's offerings (GC and Wii).

This isn't about an arbitrary download limit or even required sales for payment. It is a problem with Nintendo's corporate culture with regards to 3rd parties. Nintendo makes systems to sell Nintendo games. Both the system and the games make Nintendo money. 3rd party support is an added bonus, not something Nintendo has ever particularly cared about or courted in an honest fashion.

exactly.

nintendo is about selling nintendo games., everything else is a second or third thought.

first party games on xbox/ps is there to sell consoles and establish a standard so they can sell even more licenses to thirdparties. If there where no competing standards, there would be no first party.

 

[Riposte]

When I was a kid I mixed all my toys. GI Joes, Street Fighter II, and wrestling action figures. They all fought on branded sets, like wrestling rings. Just sayin'.

Someone has to protect Japan's honor. Mainly people with Japanese related Avatar's.

Terrible post, terrible avatar, terrible waste of name.

 

[SuomiDude]

But you'll support Nintendo with their policy that basically scams hard working developers out of money if they don't reach a arbitrary goal?

Makes sense.

I said some of his critisism was fair. I don't support Nintendo's stupid policy of Wii Ware, and that's why I haven't given Nintendo any money on it either. Now Nintendo's disc-based gaming I do support as well as 3rd party efforts.

But on principle I'm not going to support that guy or his games.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Except for the fact that he didn't make that argument. Not to mention the fact that the Wii attach ratio is pretty good considering the system has always had a pack-in title. It's like you people can't read or just are that bad at reading comprehension.

If by reading comprehension you mean taking everything at exact face value then sure. What he's saying here can easily be seen as part of a broader argument, one that is worth rationally discussing, rather than slinging ad hominems, like the gentleman who quoted me earlier did.

 

[Gvaz]

That's good.

Only leaves the prize issue, the random release time and the certification, but at least it's something.

80MB is barely any amount of space

 

[Shadow Hog]

on most other platforms, say XBLA, PSN/iOS. news of a title being brought on; will be met with comments which shold echo "that's great'. "supporting"

here its "why did they even bother bringing it to wiiware; these stupid devs. everyone know wiiware is fucked" Instead of saying "it was great, they tried to support the eshop, and that they didn't get the proper sort of certifcaation/support, real shame". instead you have, excusing nintendo. blaming the dev.

just incredible. why bother with anything on the nintendo platform if that's the consumer base's attitude.

Yeah, I distinctly remember people on another site (Joystiq I think) shitting on the announcement from Day 1, just because it was on WiiWare. Not because the devs were cramming a several hundred MB game into 40MB, resulting in low-bitrate audio and missing shadowing effects, which are legitimate complaints to be made about the resulting product - no, they were simply complaining that because it was WiiWare, it was a waste of time by definition.

Not to dismiss bullshit like 40MB filesize limits or the eternal waiting game for Nintendo of America to release anything (seriously, NoA is shit at releasing even their OWN stuff at a decent pace - both Europe and Japan are handily outpacing the US eShop in terms of Virtual Console titles, for instance). They're all problems and all need addressing, but while I could see Nintendo fixing their DD policies in an ideal world, I'm not sure how you'd tackle the popular opinion one.

 

[Derrick01]

His comments are directed towards the Wii specifically and despite the negative tone of his comments, he's not wrong about anything he said. The Wii was pretty toxic for devs outside of whoever struck gold with the casuals like the Just Dance shit.

Why he writes off Nintendo development seemingly forever is weird though. Just write off the Wii like everyone else did and move on.

 

[Ranger X]

Well, taking his bad experience on Wiiware and to think it's like that with everything Nintendo is really stupid.
Also, I cannot have any sympathy for any devs complaining about certifications. Even the Nintendo one isn't severe enough imo. How hard it is to make a game and aim for quality and think of the customer? I mean, seriously.

 

[Shiggy]

What part of his description of his experience and his dislike of Nintendos online service is outdated? He recounted what happened and currently doesn't plan to develop anything for them any time soon. That's about as up to date as it gets on his perspective.

His description was outdated to such an extent as that some parts he was criticising are no longer true for Nintendo's newer efforts.

Btw, you received a PM from me as I'd still like to know why you call me a fanboy.

 

[Hero]

If by reading comprehension you mean taking everything at exact face value then sure. What he's saying here can easily be seen as part of a broader argument, one that is worth rationally discussing, rather than slinging ad hominems, like the gentleman who quoted me earlier did.

A broader argument that is 1) false and 2) one that he didn't make. It's clear through his commentary that there is no "broader" argument that he wants to make other than be a whiny baby. He should've just stuck to his criticisms against the WiiWare service, which are valid.

is having a normal discussion without resorting to baseless condescension that hard for you?

this thread, guys. this thread.

You quote me and reply with something that's not related at all to what he said, what part of that is normal discussion?

 

[USC-fan]

Ugh.

The infuriating thing here isn't his legitimate complaints about the WiiWare restrictions, it's the position he's taking - "We don't do Nintendo development" based on that experience, ignoring the changes in policy for their evolving DD systems. File size is no apparently no longer an issue on the 3DS eShop - games there seem to have no obvious upper limit - and the minimum sales threshold appears to have been removed since DSiWare launched.

Nintendo's certification is clearly an issue - they're notoriously strict, from what I remember - but the other problems he mentions have been fixed. To take the position he does is fair enough - his crap experience has obviously soured him on Nintendo platforms - but it is also fair to point out that his complaints have been addressed.

Instead, plenty in this thread - who seem equally ignorant - are happy to take this complaint and what little they know of Nintendo's DD policies ("LULZ 40MB limit!") to beat the company with.

You want them to change? Then hammer them on legitimate, current issues!

DO we know the changes have been made? The only thing i could find was 2GB but that was a misquote.

"Never said that 2GB was the size restriction on eShop. I do not know what it is."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-27-nintendo-3ds-eshop-file-size-limit-is-2gb

 

[Glass Rebel]

What part of his description of his experience and his dislike of Nintendos online service is outdated? He recounted what happened and currently doesn't plan to develop anything for them any time soon. That's about as up to date as it gets on his perspective.

The part about the restrictions on Nintendo systems.

I'm still waiting for your reply btw.

 

[Coolwhip]

Very childish and unproffesional outing by this guy. I still welcome it though, maybe Nintendo will get theirshit together then. I want to feel like i'm in 2012 with the wii u, not the 90s.

 

[7threst]

Bravo! great post.

Nintendo needs to learn from sony. PS3 online was shit when it launch and now its pretty much equal to MS besides the hour long updates and then installs.

I wonder, do you live in Europe? Because here, PS3 online is far from great...

 

[Forkball]

Trash Nintendo for bad ideas

Make game a Beandog exclusive on PC

 

[walking fiend]

DO we know the changes have been made? The only thing i could find was 2GB but that was a misquote.

"Never said that 2GB was the size restriction on eShop. I do not know what it is."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-27-nintendo-3ds-eshop-file-size-limit-is-2gb

About the sale thresh-hold I posted Nnoo comment and it isn't true on DSiWare (I can't imagine it being true on 3DSWare either)

Size limit, there's currently a multiplat game which has a size around 700mb on PSP; so I guess it is at least much higher than 40mb

 

[Grymm]

His description was outdated to such an extent as that some parts he was criticising are no longer true for Nintendo's newer efforts.

Btw, you received a PM from me as I'd still like to know why you call me a fanboy.

His description of what he experienced can't be outdated. He didn't say the service was still as shitty, he just recalled what happened to him.

But when you look at the 3DS eShop offerings apparently while there might not be a 40 meg limit anymore it sounds equally shitty in all other aspects still.

And as far as your PM I'm not going to get in a discussion why I think some fanboy named Shiggy is a fanboy. It's a conversation that shouldn't need to be had. It's not like you haven't been around here long enough for everyone to know.

There seems to be extra creepy Nintendo defensiveness going on lately. Moreso than usual. I blame it on WiiU.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

DO we know the changes have been made? The only thing i could find was 2GB but that was a misquote.

"Never said that 2GB was the size restriction on eShop. I do not know what it is."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-27-nintendo-3ds-eshop-file-size-limit-is-2gb

At the very least - leaving aside that particular quote - we know there are no WiiWare/DSiWare-level restrictions on eShop filesize from the "block" size of the largest demos/games currently available (I'd have to hunt out those figures, but I think 200-300MB or so is around the largest so far).

The minimum sales threshold being removed for their DD services from DSiWare onward is one I've seen mentioned by devs online, but there's no official policy documents out there.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Yep seemed like a pretty terrible business decision. But I'm guessing we'll never hear the whole story on that.

The blame for MDK bombing isn't completely on Nintendo's neglect of WiiWare, because it was blatantly obvious how dumb that idea was. He wouldn't even be complaining now if they hadn't been so dumb in the first place. It's funny, because their current plans with Baldur's Gate are hitting all the right notes.

 

[USC-fan]

I wonder, do you live in Europe? Because here, PS3 online is far from great...

Nope charleston sc

What would you change? Cross game chat is the only thing I could think of but vita already has that but I have never used that even on xbox live. Whatever you could want is sure not worth $50 a year to me. I dont even pay for live any more.... not worth it.

 

[Shiggy]

His description of what he experienced can't be outdated. He didn't say the service was still as shitty, he just recalled what happened to him.

It's the things he's criticising when giving reasons for why he's not bringing his game to Wii U.

My problems with Nintendo are

Some of those things are apparently not true when it comes to the Wii U digital store.

But when you look at the 3DS eShop offerings apparently while there might not be a 40 meg limit anymore it sounds equally shitty in all other aspects still.

The eShop lineup is pretty lacklustre indeed.

And as far as your PM I'm not going to get in a discussion why I think some fanboy named Shiggy is a fanboy. It's a conversation that shouldn't need to be had. It's not like you haven't been around here long enough for everyone to know.

Calm down or I fear that you may not stay on here for much longer with making such statements.

 

[ShinNL]

exactly.

nintendo is about selling nintendo games., everything else is a second or third thought.

first party games on xbox/ps is there to sell consoles and establish a standard so they can sell even more licenses to thirdparties. If there where no competing standards, there would be no first party.

Such an outdated and ignorant view. You would know better if you actually followed any recent Nintendo conferences or press releases, but I'm sure you never did. 3rd parties have been constantly been promoted (by Nintendo!) since the very start of revealing the 3DS, with Iwata making deep public thank you bows for that.

 

[7threst]

Nope charleston sc

What would you change? Cross game chat is the only thing I could think of but vita already has that but I have never used that even on xbox live. Whatever you could want is sure not worth $50 a year to me. I dont even pay for live any more.... not worth it.

Well, better store offerings, a better UI, better pricing of what is offered and actual benefits when taking PS+... that said though, PS online is way better than Nintendo's online services. But yeah, I stopped paying for live on Xbox 360, but I admit, I'm not really an online MP kind of person, so I'm more interested in store offerings then stable connection for online MP.

 

[Gospel]

Bravo! great post.

Nintendo needs to learn from sony. PS3 online was shit when it launch and now its pretty much equal to MS besides the hour long updates and then installs.

I certainly wouldn't go that far. It has improved greatly, though.

 

[BocoDragon]

The blame for MDK bombing isn't completely on Nintendo's neglect of WiiWare, because it was blatantly obvious how dumb that idea was. He wouldn't even be complaining now if they hadn't been so dumb in the first place. It's funny, because their current plans with Baldur's Gate are hitting all the right notes.

So you're saying that not working with Nintendo should have been obvious even before the lesson of WiiWare MDK2 bombing?

 

[catotheyounger]

There was a Gamasutra article related to dev's attitudes about WiiWare back in 2009.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22974

 

[wsippel]

What part of his description of his experience and his dislike of Nintendos online service is outdated? He recounted what happened and currently doesn't plan to develop anything for them any time soon. That's about as up to date as it gets on his perspective.

He's only talking about Wii. Not DSi, not eShop. Yet he never clarifies, and he uses present tense. It's highly misleading.

From everything we hear from developers, the eShop is a pretty great platform. If there is a size limit, it seems pretty damn high (ReXX was 512MB in Japan and is coming to eShop), there's great tech support, same 70/30 split as with Apple or Steam with no minimum payout, Nintendo allows demos, DLC, updates, user generated content and web integration, pricing is much more flexible, and Nintendo actually markets marquee titles. There also doesn't seem to be any content approval - you're free to do apps (Colors or Rytmik come to mind) and Nintendo won't tell you that adventures or pinball games are "too niche" (something Steam is know to do). Only problem seems to be that they're seemingly slow as molasses and have pretty strict QA, but there's always something I guess. Oster's tweets leave the impression that nothing changed.

 

[Seraphinianus]

You quote me and reply with something that's not related at all to what he said, what part of that is normal discussion?

he said people buy wii+wii sports

your counter argument was "they buy wii fit also"

my response was that Nintendo's first party sales mean dick to third parties, unless they're making Jillian Michael's Imagine: Just Dance or w/e

 

[1-D_FTW]

"I can't make a game that will sell 6,000 copies so Nintendo is stoopid"

Yes, because everyone knows Nintendo has done such an amazing job with Wiiware that only incompetent hacks can't achieve this in their sleep.

 

[7threst]

So you're saying that not working with Nintendo should have been obvious even before the lesson of WiiWare MDK2 bombing?

That's kinda what I mean earlier in this thread. I mean, analyzing the way WiiWare is run and how succesful it is, and what is expected from you as a developer when working with Nintendo should give you an idea of doing a project on WiiWare in the first place.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

If this was their experience then its an absolutely fair and reasonable criticism to offer. Absolutely. I can understand why such difficulties would put anyone off.

The rest comes across as bitter pained ramblings though. The fact that he is adamant that New Super Mario Bros, Mario Kart, Wii Fit, DKCR, Smash Bros and Wii Sports Resort simply don't exist is rather pitiable.

Yeah right. It is not like there were no New Super Mario Bros, Mario Kart, Wii Fit and Wii Sports Resort bundles. /sarcasm

Don't you think this has contributed a lot to high sale numbers of these games? And how many of these titles are third party?

 

[Zee-Row]

Nintendo has never been 3rd party friendly , even though they are better at it than they were 10 years ago its still awful by today's standards. Nintendo only makes hardware for their games in mind and never the full spectrum.

 

[Grymm]

That's kinda what I mean earlier in this thread. I mean, analyzing the way WiiWare is run and how succesful it is, and what is expected from you as a developer when working with Nintendo should give you an idea of doing a project on WiiWare in the first place.

All true and basically this guy, among most other devs apparently, has figured out the easy solution to the problem.

Just don't make games for Nintendo. Problem solved.

 

[ShinNL]

Nintendo has never been 3rd party friendly , even though they are better at it than they were 10 years ago its still awful by today's standards. Nintendo only makes hardware for their games in mind and never the full spectrum.

Why don't you just post *jab* and end your post? Because what you say is based on a bunch of mindless nothing.

 

[BocoDragon]

That's kinda what I mean earlier in this thread. I mean, analyzing the way WiiWare is run and how succesful it is, and what is expected from you as a developer when working with Nintendo should give you an idea of doing a project on WiiWare in the first place.

Sounds to me like a perfect justification of the developers statement, then.

WiiWare is a strange crapshoot where you have to jump through hoops, you get barely any promotion, and the chances are that your game won't sell.

But on the other hand you could probably sell MDK2 on XBLA just fine.

If I was the Pres of Beamdog, I might come to the exact same conclusion.

 

[Meier]

Not to say that I disagree with him about the system, because I don't.. I've found the Wii to be the most disappointing system in history for me personally, but I don't believe the attach rate is significantly lower than the 360 and PS3. It's sold more software than either of those I believe? It certainly had for quite awhile if it isn't still ahead.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

Is this true about Nintendo? Would they do something like that?

 

[Mpl90]

He's only talking about Wii. Not DSi, not eShop. Yet he never clarifies, and he uses present tense. It's highly misleading.

From everything we hear from developers, the eShop is a pretty great platform. If there is a size limit, it seems pretty damn high (ReXX was 512MB in Japan and is coming to eShop), there's great tech support, same 70/30 split as with Apple or Steam with no minimum payout, Nintendo allows demos, DLC, updates, user generated content and web integration, pricing is much more flexible, and Nintendo actually markets marquee titles. There also doesn't seem to be any content approval - you're free to do apps (Colors or Rytmik come to mind) and Nintendo won't tell you that adventures or pinball games are "too niche" (something Steam is know to do). Only problem seems to be that they're seemingly slow as molasses and have pretty strict QA, but there's always something I guess. Oster's tweets leave the impression that nothing changed.

That must be quoted every time about the situation NOW. Nintendo is doing progresses, and I'm seeing announcements coming, and Nicalis and Renegade Kid have been really satisfied so far.

Certainly, Wiiware was a disaster. The other comments, the toy one...2012, and we have still to hear this?

 

[IdreamofHIME]

How long did Squares grudge last? 6 or 7 years? Think this guy can beat them?

 

[Dabanton]

Why were they even try to sell MDK2 on the Wii anyway?

 

[Violet_0]

now, now, the Wii is a pretty great console for Nintendo games

 

[7threst]

Sounds to me like a perfect justification of the developers statement, then.

WiiWare is a strange crapshoot where you have to jump through hoops, you get barely any promotion, and the chances are that your game won't sell.

But on the other hand you could probably sell MDK2 on XBLA just fine.

If I was the Pres of Beamdog, I might come to the exact same conclusion.

True, I also agree with your earlier posts. However, he could've said it a little bit more professional imo. However, that is me, talking as a gamer who enjoys the offerings on Nintendo systems and not as a developer with a bad experience with Nintendo. I do feel that it isn't necesary to rule out games on an Nintendo system in the future.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

his 'actual' criticisms are extremely valid. Nintendo's process on the Wii was embarrassing.