PairOfFilthySocks
Member
To be honest, I'm willing to bet a great many fans who would get upset over this were well into gaming by the time Baldur's Gate came out.
Beamdog founder Trent Oster: "We don't do Nintendo development"
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
To be honest, I'm willing to bet a great many fans who would get upset over this were well into gaming by the time Baldur's Gate came out.
I don't really see anyone defending the old limit.
People are stating that the limit is no longer in place and therefor a moot point.
Agent X
Member
Yeah, I don't get it either. Here we have a developer that figured they'd at least try to bring a new conversion of an older game to WiiWare...and unfortunately it didn't pan out as well as they hoped it would.
With regard to the 40 MB limit, maybe they hoped they could work within it, and chisel out any unnecessary bulk to get it to fit. Or if they couldn't manage that, perhaps they hoped Nintendo would have seen fit to raise the cap (since Microsoft had done the same for XBLA on multiple occasions). Team Meat hoped for the same thing.
In any case, Nintendo should have raised the cap...not just for the benefit of Beamdog or Team Meat, but for the benefit of any developer seeking to make a game on what is purported to be a modern downloadable game platform. This is very much a legitimate complaint.
Whether 3DS has a higher limit now isn't the issue. It's Nintendo's complete stubbornness, and their outright refusal to change and evolve the service to meet the growing needs of developers.
If 3DS has a 500 MB limit now...well, that's better than what Wii had. (I don't know the "real" limit, this is merely an example.) You know, 40 MB for the Wii in 2006 didn't sound so bad at the time, either. 40 MB for the Wii in 2012 is downright archaic. 2-3 years from now, will 3DS still be stuck with the same 500 MB limit, or will they make an effort to match or exceed the expectations of other popular mobile gaming platforms?
We've seen Nintendo falter when it comes to other aspects of E-commerce as well, such as providing an account-based system that makes it easy for users to transfer their previously purchased downloadable games across multiple systems. There are many artificial obstacles on Nintendo's systems, most of which were created and/or perpetuated by Nintendo themselves. These are issues that developers are struggling with, and are the reasons why Wii downloadable games never resonated (with either developers or consumers) quite the same way that XBLA/PSN did.
This is true.
No one is defending it, they are just saying that if you're aware of the limit make a game that you know will fit. What they tried to do was fit a square peg in a round hole.
It's not like 40MB games have never existed.
ShinNL
Member
The mature CoD generation will surely appreciate D&D.
It helps if you just quote a person defending it instead of putting a random argument into the air which makes everyone wonder "who are you referring to, what are you talking about?". To answer your question: you're missing a quote.
Glass Rebel
Member
Nah, judging by how well 3rd parties are doing that still would be giving you too much credit.
Shadow Hog
Member
Nope, I'll not buy the Baldur's Gate port for the same reason I didn't buy the MDK2 port.
I already own it.
I haven't seen much "defending" but more of wondering the same thing you said: with so many platforms out there without limits or less restricting ones, why they chose one with said limit for their first release.. then complain about it? Why not XBLA? PSN? Heck, they had no problem releasing MDK2 HD on their own.
The size limit was known before 2010, the payment policies were known before 2010...both sucked before that, both sucked in 2011 and still suck in 2012 (for WiiWare). The certification process is actually weird and been questioned by fellow devs, since unless they f'd things, it doesn't take 9 months. But as noted, there's Interplay in the mix; so who knows if that has something to do with it. Is like that Yuji Naka Wii game that he finished, gave to the publisher and they've been sitting on the game since then.
The limit was raised on 3DS and the same applies for Wii U.
EDIT:
I'm not arguing that "hey at least they tried"; but more at why do it and then complain about it...and then throw the "toy" and "Wii Sports" bits.
Just go through the tweets of Studio Walljump:
https://twitter.com/#!/Studiowalljump
Fall 2009: Game is finished, bug fixes only now
April 2010: Liight will finally be finished in May.
May 2010: Why won't this project DIE??!!? Failure 1
August 2010: I think... I think we just finished Liight. A weekend of testing will confirm! YEAH!!!
September 2010: Liight has been waiting at Nintendo for final approval for a few weeks now; hopefully we'll be first in line soon!
October 2010: Well, the manual for Liight is approved, so thats one thing down. Now for the GAME. Should be hearing back veeeeeeerrrry soon....
Looks like we're going to have to take another shot at Lotcheck : (. Failure 2Let's hope the third time is a charm!
November 2010: Managed to fail lotcheck again. We're getting good at that! Somebody remind me what time the charm is...Failure 3
December 2010: Liight is FINALLY APPROVED FOR WiiWare! I will let you know the $$ and Date asap!
March 2011: Release in NA
So why were there these delays and failures? In August 2010 there was a mandatory SDK update. While the game would've passed lotcheck then, the new SDK "created" new bugs.
Criminal Upper
Banned
I don't get it? Your obvious wit must be lost on me.
Quiet, fanboy.
And then sticking people on ignore lists so they don't have to bother with that silly little thing called a discussion.
No one is defending Nintendo's practices with the wiiware store, it was terrible.
But calling it a toy and saying people only bought it for wiisports shows a lot of immaturity and plain ignorance on the business, as I always say, the industry is full of fanboys, even devs themselves. It's obvious why his game failed in wiiware, they guy and his company are oblivious to the basic of this business and seem to use gamefaqs as their guide, because I can't find any other way to explain the ignorance shown in his comments.
But calling it a toy and saying people only bought it for wiisports shows a lot of immaturity and plain ignorance on the business, as I always say, the industry is full of fanboys, even devs themselves. It's obvious why his game failed in wiiware, they guy and his company are oblivious to the basic of this business and seem to use gamefaqs as their guide, because I can't find any other way to explain the ignorance shown in his comments.
FieryBalrog
Member
There are plenty of silly comments in this thread, whining all out of propotion to what the dev said. Don't need to invent "supposed" Nintendo fanboys.
Give me an example then.
Catchpenny
Member
Haven't seen anyone defending the 40 MB limit, just a few people pointing out that it doesn't seem to be something Nintendo is implementing on 3DS or WiiU.
I wouldn't have a problem with some sort of limit on download sizes, if it were roomy and expanded in a way consistent with how games are being developed. Monthly data caps seem to be on the rise again, at least in the USA. Spending days downloading a game is also something that does not appeal to me. I put up with it on Steam because most of my purchases there are <5GB. Downloading games that are over 20 GB on a regular basis doesn't appeal to me at all...that's why I cannot see an all-DD console working anytime soon.
What? There will always be discussion for people putting in ignore list other people. Just with themselves indeed, and THIS is the BEST. DISCUSSION. POSSIBLE.
XD
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
I think his criticisms are valid. We'll see how much better Nintendo's policies for the Wii U are.
Generally in my experience it hasn't been the SDK itself as much as it's been the updated TCR's which coincide with that SDK. That said, Sony and Microsoft at least would notify about upcoming TCR updates in advance and it was quite possible to get your game into cert before the deadline - or at least you'd know about the changes well enough in advance to have time to adapt your code to accomodate them.
Did they not keep abreast of all upcoming TCR and SDK changes? Or are Nintendo more cagey about that information than Sony and MS?
I don't think it's technically possible to update the Wiiware-platform to accept games using over 40MB. It's a limit that cannot be changed, and has nothing to do with stubbornness. Just poor planning from the outset. The needs of developers have mostly been met with their later services, such as 3DSware.
I am curious about a few tidbits from this...
1) Is the "9 months" lot check thing unusual -- or not? It certainly sounds unusual to me, but I can't be sure.
2) Interplay published this, not Beamdog -- right? If that's the case, I'm puzzled as to why Beamdog would be impacted at all by sales limits. Shouldn't their contract with Interplay make provisions for their payment?
3) Re: point 2 -- I wonder if the game is going to be pulled from the store now.
1) Is the "9 months" lot check thing unusual -- or not? It certainly sounds unusual to me, but I can't be sure.
2) Interplay published this, not Beamdog -- right? If that's the case, I'm puzzled as to why Beamdog would be impacted at all by sales limits. Shouldn't their contract with Interplay make provisions for their payment?
3) Re: point 2 -- I wonder if the game is going to be pulled from the store now.
Its not that hes wrong with his criticisms, its just that considering everything, why was a wiiware port even considered a good idea? Would it have not been far more economical to just port MDK2 HD to ps3/x360?? He had to have full knowledge about all the issues with wiiware development at that point and time. There's no getting around the fact that compared to XBLA and PSN, wiiware is a crappy DD service. Adding to that, wiiware has been practically dead-ish for the past few years when it comes to game releases on that service.
Shouldn't his frustrations be directed towards whoever greenlighted the port to wiiware? To me, its no different that the people who thought UDraw was a great idea on the HD consoles.
Shouldn't his frustrations be directed towards whoever greenlighted the port to wiiware? To me, its no different that the people who thought UDraw was a great idea on the HD consoles.
ShinNL
Member
I love how you're ignoring all the replies already.
Pachterballs
Banned
all this chatter about 40mb. i reiterate.
you make a product. you spend the resources to make it.
nintendo certification hell for 9 months = you are fucked with your product in limbo. no revenue. stuck.
and then when you do go on to sell you product, having to sell at least 6000 unit before they pay you.
Having product on the store benefits nintendo. it needs to treat its 3rd parties better.
I think that's a huge part of the problem and why he feels the way he does about nintendo. nintendo cost them money by dragging their feet. There's no way around it.
you make a product. you spend the resources to make it.
nintendo certification hell for 9 months = you are fucked with your product in limbo. no revenue. stuck.
and then when you do go on to sell you product, having to sell at least 6000 unit before they pay you.
Having product on the store benefits nintendo. it needs to treat its 3rd parties better.
I think that's a huge part of the problem and why he feels the way he does about nintendo. nintendo cost them money by dragging their feet. There's no way around it.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Absolutely bizarre, and this is the key one. Lot Check is basically you submitting a gold master. So failing that, for 9 months? Really? Either they or Nintendo are super incompetent.
...and I'm willing to bet that even if Nintendo's that incompetent, some of that still falls on their side.
You have to fuck EVERYTHING up to sit through 9 months of lot check.
Looking at the gaps, they don't make sense.
May 2010 (1)
October 2010 (2)
November 2010 (3)
The second -> third one shows that Nintendo can pass things fast after they failed their second one, but now becomes the question, what the hell is going on between May to October, or Fall 2009 to May?
Why are you here then?
Chuck Norris
Banned
Yeah right along with treating third party partners like dirt
Hit and run trolling.
I mean, he'll never touch a 3DS but he's totally convinced the eShop is shit because of a small amount of negative word in this thread, and is ignoring all the positive reaction. No shit he has an agenda.
Instro had a good response to him, so he completely ignored it, just as he ignored wsippel's posts.
That technically applies to all.
Is like when people still act pissed off at developer/publishers having to submit digital PS games per region, instead of just once. Or the Xbox 360 limits that they raised up to 2GB during the years (and even a few developers claim is not enough). Or the debacle between Team Meat and Microsoft. All systems had and have their "stuff".
Were the WiiWare "problems" archaic, stupid and just dumb? Yeah.
Did Nintendo changed their stance since then? Yep.
Heck, at GDC it was announced that Nintendo gives away Kynapse, Scaleform, Humanik and Havok to licensed third-party Wii U developers which in this cases benefits more smaller studios since they don't have to spend thousands in said licenses in some cases per game. Doubt that's been treated like dirt. That they once did, well that's another thing.
whoa whoa whoa. hold on.
First off I don't do hit and run.
2nd I'm not just basing my opinion of the 3DS eShop on the remarks in this thread. There's an entire internet that calls it shit I also refer to with many perfectly valid reasons. Small amount of negative word my ass.
3rd wsippel, whoever the fuck that is, apparently some guy that can't link a source for anything and doesn't know what 3rd party games are popular, replied with changes made to the eShop vs WiiWare. That's fine. But what he didn't address is even with those changes why the eShop is still considered to be shitty. I mean if it's all fixed as nice as he said, why is it still shit? Where are the devs and games flocking to it? He, and no one else, had any answer for that. Typical Ninthings with their fingers in their ears blocking out the valid criticisms like usual.
What anyone else also failed and continues to fail to do is respond to what in the hell makes people think the WiiU service has fixed things any further? There's no info to go on and history sure as shit doesn't support it, yet you have people saying in this thread that it'll be fixed on WiiU like they know they for a fact.
They don't even know if it will still be using fucking friend codes. But they know they WiiU download service will be "fixed".
Some of the posters in this thread are crazier than a 40 meg game size limit.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
Yup, went back and read and most are saying "they were stupid to develop the game if they knew the limits" which is true but there's a few fruity statements in this thread and the other
e.g. "The phrase "A bad craftsman only blames his tools" comes to mind when I see a developer blame the 40MB limit."
Plus - generally - we've got a two way dogpile. Nintendo fans now adding Beamdog to the "team non grata" list and people overly Nintendo negative using it have a go at Nintendo.
I don't own a 3DS either, so I'm not in a position to speak with any certainty about the service, but the impression that I get is that most of the dislike is because people don't like the layout of the shop, or they don't like the games released so far. As has been said time and time again, the 40MB limit and the sales threshold for payout have been lifted, so Nintendo has clearly improved things for developers. I don't know about the certification process, but I certainly hope that's been fixed. 9 months is totally unacceptable, and I don't blame Trent Oster for bearing a grudge against Nintendo for being even partially responsible for his team going through such a nightmare. I imagine Nintendo have worked to improve in this area, since they have worked to address the other major developer concerns about their online platforms, but this is just an assumption, just like your assumption that the system is still 'shit'.
I think the real reason developers aren't flocking to it is that they'd rather be developing for iOS than any handheld. Small file sizes, low cost and DD put eShop into direct competition with the App store. This is also the reason why the PSN service for the Vita isn't going to be flooded with support. Simple as that.
If the improvements that have been made on 3DS are carried over to Wii U, which is only logical, then yes, the Wii U service will be 'fixed' in comparison to WiiWare. As for the current problems with eShop (which seem to be orginisation and layout), we have to wait and see what work Nintendo have put into the OS and online services on Wii U.
shinra-bansho
Member
Seems like third party relations still aren't all hunky dory; despite dramatic improvement.
I recall a Japanese developer highlighted some of the issues of developing/publishing on the Wii a while back.
I recall a Japanese developer highlighted some of the issues of developing/publishing on the Wii a while back.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I agree. But one side is improving, the other is still the same. Guess which is which!
Oh you don't own a 3DS either.
"What are you doing in this thread?"
Did you form your impressions of the eShop based on a "small amount of negative word in this thread"?
I don't think you expected me to call you out on your bullshit post. I did and now you try to act sensible. The sensible part I respect. The bullshit it took to get there... not so much.
lol, when did you get that tag?
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
I don't understand.
Sure, you had a bad business partnership with Nintendo, but there's no need to be a jerk about things.
Plus, like someone already mentioned in this thread - if other developers succeeded on the service despite size limitations and selling a minimum of 6,000 copies before receiving revenue, why didn't your company succeed? lol.
Sure, you had a bad business partnership with Nintendo, but there's no need to be a jerk about things.
Plus, like someone already mentioned in this thread - if other developers succeeded on the service despite size limitations and selling a minimum of 6,000 copies before receiving revenue, why didn't your company succeed? lol.
What? I'm not one of the people saying that.
Well, it's more accurate to say my impressions of the eShop were formed by all the impressions on it I've been seeing since the 3DS launched. The difference between you and me is that I pay attention to everything I read about it, rather than rather than filtering out one side completely so as to better suit my agenda.
Your selective quoting of me is telling. I like how you didn't bother to include the part about 'ignoring all the positive reaction.'
You're right, I didn't expect you to totally dodge responding to my counterarguments, but I should have known better.
Here it is once again, since you ignored it the first time:
You were making a big deal about how developers not flocking to the eShop, despite the improvements people have been pointing out have been made to the service from where Nintendo stood with WiiWare, must mean that the service is still 'shit' (even though you haven't used it and 'have no idea why it sucks'). My response to that is that developers who are targeting small game sizes and a low price point would much rather develop for iOS and its enormous userbase than for a DD service on a dedicated handheld. It's the same reason that Vita's PSN service isn't going to be flooded with new games from indies (though, like the eShop, it apparently has some good support already). I'm pretty confident it has a lot more to do with that than the quality of the service.
I had to take away all of the rest of that. . . ahem, post, because of all the exclamation points and nonsense. Honestly, it's not that serious. Anyways. . .
If you thought about it even a little, you'd realize: (1) It's a new, unproven platform and audience, (2) and it's expensive to develop for a dedicated gaming platform compared to a phone or the PC. But there's over 500 games available through the US eShop (60 3DS exclusives), so you're talking out of your ass when you say it doesn't have any games. At least you sort of admitted that when you said you didn't have a 3DS.
And even if you ignore the huge gulf between what Nintendo's done for the eShop and what Nintendo did for Wii Shop Channel. . . Nope. Wait. You can't ignore that. You're just being willfully ignorant there.
Glass Rebel
Member
why are you guys feeding him
why
guys
why
guys
I love how he asks...
And then he gets an answer (which lenovox1 has now written out again, better than I did) and choses not to bother to reply to it. Who's got their fingers in their ears again?
Why would we do that?