Robobandit
Member
I still like him too
I agree with his opinions.. though I don't necessarily agree with his tactics.
Also, the episode title is very fitting..
Fate/Zero TV |OT| Now 100% mollusk free!
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I still like him too
I agree with his opinions.. though I don't necessarily agree with his tactics.
Also, the episode title is very fitting..
Ultimadrago
Member
Seems fair enough. Again, I'm not pointing fingers at people for sympathizing, I was just curious as to why a number felt this way. I'm assuming it's probably for similar reasons.
No, you didn't. I was just guessing that he was selfish and to the end.
Though it could be hard to think of others when you're screwed like that.
Meccanical
Member
Japanese people LOOOOVE being deep.
Basileus777
Member
I can't blame Kayneth for not caring about Lancer,
the guy stole his fiancee with his NTR mole. That and he's a dead spirit, not a human being. Of course he'd want to save Sola and himself first.
I think Kayneth is almost as realistic as Kiritsugu in a way. He views Servants as a tool and an underling. Nothing more. He even makes that quite clear mid-way in the episode.
Also, I knew you weren't pointing fingers. I was just explaining myself. ^_^
I see what you did there.
Ultimadrago
Member
Seriously, It's called a Band-Aid, people!
True, but we know Kiritsugu has a vision, one that a kind-hearted Iris truly believes in.
Some might not care to hear it NOW
Kayneth just
seemed power hungry for power hungry CoCoPuffs!
Indeed, Masters are of many different flowers, all sharing thorns.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I think the episode did an effective job of making you care for Kayneth.
He's not a particularly nice man, but you can get a sense for his motivations as the episode goes on, and seeing him give up on his ambitions was an emotional moment for me. Then, he gets killed anyway and it was pretty horrifying.
InsaneZero
Member
For all the happy people that are playing the Fate/stay night VN right now and haven't gone on the Heaven's Feel route:
Heaven's Feel contains the most amount of backstory regarding the Holy Grail War out of all the routes and thus will also contain a gargantuan amount of spoilers for Fate/Zero. Yes, a lot more than what you already know from the other routes. On the other hand, Fate/Zero also contains similarly massive spoilers that'll reveal about 70% of the twists for Heaven's Feel, since the two are meant to mirror each other.
Pick your poison.
Heaven's Feel contains the most amount of backstory regarding the Holy Grail War out of all the routes and thus will also contain a gargantuan amount of spoilers for Fate/Zero. Yes, a lot more than what you already know from the other routes. On the other hand, Fate/Zero also contains similarly massive spoilers that'll reveal about 70% of the twists for Heaven's Feel, since the two are meant to mirror each other.
Pick your poison.
I just got up. Wall of black text coming later.
Yes....
I definitely agree. It's the one sense of humility from Kayneth that we get. We also see Kiritsugu similarly last season with his discussion with Iri right before kayneth barged in.
I feel like F/Z is one of the series where you can get a very different emotional impact having watched it a second time after knowing what's going to happen. It's powerful stuff.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
What about Kirei? Didn't he get one after Assassin bit the dust?
Also, about the latest episode:
I didn't give half a fuck about Kayneth until this episode, but the way he styled all over the pastor in his wheelchair made me appreciate him. Wheelchair moe is best moe.
Fate/Zero Episode 16
Detailed spoilers within, do not highlight before watching.
Detailed spoilers within, do not highlight before watching.
This is probably the only direction Team Lancer's story could have gone. It was a doomed arrangement to begin with, and anyone could see it was a bad idea from the start.
Kayneth is a weak master in the sense that he is an educator and academic who is not well suited to take part in a practical all-or-nothing war game like this. But he is also too proud a man to turn down such an offer to represent the Mage Association, and he is too proud to admit to himself that his knowledge and skills do not apply well to a situation like the Grail War.
Sola-Ui seems like a dutiful wife, who simply follows Kayneth's plan because she actually believes they cannot lose. She has a lot of faith in her husband, and sees this battle as a small extension of his job at the Mage Association. That is until Lancer's curse starts to make her drift from common sense.
Lancer is too noble a knight and too tragic a figure to be suitable for the sort of arrangement Kayneth tried to make. Serving two masters was never in his nature, and compromising his values when the chips are down isn't something he's capable of either. With the Servant unwilling to play dirty, and command of the Servant divided between two masters, the entire situation was a clusterfuck waiting to happen.
I think everyone saw this sort of climax happening way before this, but still, the way it was executed probably caught most people off guard. Kiritsugu and Maiya's mechanical ruthlessness in their operations is really hard to watch, especially since there are clearly no lingering emotions or deep reflections they have after their acts.
I found it very interesting that the episode opened by showing that Kayneth was in a way directly influenced mentally by his encounter with Kiritsugu. His underhanded maneuvering which got him the Command Spell, and the way he shot Rinsei in cold blood, both show that he is willing to do things that being a prideful mage would have prevented him from doing previously. After seeing how Kiritsugu totally destroyed him, he was influenced to try the same sort of strategies to get his way in the Grail War. But too little too late it seems.
The way the "main" acts of violence were presented in the episode were very effective because of how sudden and unexpected they were. The mix of the camera, sound design, and the mental state of each of the characters in these scenes lowers the guard of the viewer to surprise them with a shocking incident. It's very effective imo.
For example, we start with Sola-Ui looking through a fence, thinking about Lancer, and just having a personal moment. This scene automatically makes us think that the intention is to develop her character to show that she is no longer the person she used to be, and is completely under his spell. By doing this, it distracts the viewer from making the connection that there might be another person at the scene, in a way it puts the audience into her mind set, which is such that she is oblivious to her surroundings and hence does not realize that Maiya has come right behind her, until she sees her own hand hanging on the fence. Fantastic.
In the same way, the murder of Rinsei, and later Kayneth and Sola-Ui, are paced in a way where it happens very quickly, and you don't quite expect that the person would go that far immediately. By the time you make the connection that yes, that is logically what a person who is cold and calculating would do, the incident has already happened.
I think it was very effective to have Kiritsugu bring Kayneth and Sola-Ui out into the open, to basically announce to Saber what he has done, because in doing so the expectation is that Kayneth is "finished" with his plan, and that it is unlikely he would further harm his relationship with his Servant by doing something even more dishonorable and inhuman right in front of her in the open.
But he does just that. Why? Because I think that in reality this wasn't JUST about Kayneth and Lancer. That was one reason for Kiritsugu to do it, since it's practical. But there is also the fact that he wants to set a strong example for his Servant to make it clear to her that he has had enough of the games she and Lancer were playing. They might be knights in their past lives, but he isn't interested in that, and that has no place in the rest of his Grail War. It was a strong statement that he wants to see "the end of honor" as the subtitle says.
Regarding Lancer himself. I found myself very satisfied by how the show presented his exit. While it is true that the dishonorable way he was defeated leaves the actual combat between Saber and Lancer unsatisfying, the final scene of his really hammered home his bitterness and resentment for the entire Grail War, and for the first time I felt he let all his chivalry go and was truly honest to everyone watching. He is filled with hate and sadness, betrayed by fate over and over, and there is no more goodwill in his heart for the realms of men.
The fight between Lancer and Saber this week was also really well presented. It mirrors episode 4 well, simply by showing how different a fight between the two of them would look like if they did not have the cautiousness they did in their first battle. In ep4, the majority of parries were about evasion, and in some ways deceit. Both sides didn't want the other to know exactly what they were capable of, so they tried to test their boundaries and play some mind games. Here in ep16, there is none of that, and it becomes much more physical. Sword clashing on lance, Saber bouncing off the lance with her feet, Lancer blocking her sword hand with his arm, etc. Great stuff.
The final confrontation between Saber and Kiritsugu is something which has been building up since ep7, and it's nice to see them air their views to each other. But it also shows that it is too late for them to talk it out, and that they both feel so reinforced in their views that there is something irreparable in their bond. Kiritsugu believes Saber is too idealistic and weak-minded when it comes to making a commitment to truly change the world. Saber believes that Kiritsugu is too cold, and cares nothing for the means as long as he feels the end is justified enough. They are both right, and there can be no compromise. But they both also need each other. Which is why Iri is probably the only thing holding this relationship together. Not the Grail. Not any end goal. But a single person - who isn't even human.
And the end of the episode concludes on a note which drives home how fragile that link between Saber and Kiritsugu is. If something were to happen to Iri - what then? It's going to get really interesting I think.
Kayneth is a weak master in the sense that he is an educator and academic who is not well suited to take part in a practical all-or-nothing war game like this. But he is also too proud a man to turn down such an offer to represent the Mage Association, and he is too proud to admit to himself that his knowledge and skills do not apply well to a situation like the Grail War.
Sola-Ui seems like a dutiful wife, who simply follows Kayneth's plan because she actually believes they cannot lose. She has a lot of faith in her husband, and sees this battle as a small extension of his job at the Mage Association. That is until Lancer's curse starts to make her drift from common sense.
Lancer is too noble a knight and too tragic a figure to be suitable for the sort of arrangement Kayneth tried to make. Serving two masters was never in his nature, and compromising his values when the chips are down isn't something he's capable of either. With the Servant unwilling to play dirty, and command of the Servant divided between two masters, the entire situation was a clusterfuck waiting to happen.
I think everyone saw this sort of climax happening way before this, but still, the way it was executed probably caught most people off guard. Kiritsugu and Maiya's mechanical ruthlessness in their operations is really hard to watch, especially since there are clearly no lingering emotions or deep reflections they have after their acts.
I found it very interesting that the episode opened by showing that Kayneth was in a way directly influenced mentally by his encounter with Kiritsugu. His underhanded maneuvering which got him the Command Spell, and the way he shot Rinsei in cold blood, both show that he is willing to do things that being a prideful mage would have prevented him from doing previously. After seeing how Kiritsugu totally destroyed him, he was influenced to try the same sort of strategies to get his way in the Grail War. But too little too late it seems.
The way the "main" acts of violence were presented in the episode were very effective because of how sudden and unexpected they were. The mix of the camera, sound design, and the mental state of each of the characters in these scenes lowers the guard of the viewer to surprise them with a shocking incident. It's very effective imo.
For example, we start with Sola-Ui looking through a fence, thinking about Lancer, and just having a personal moment. This scene automatically makes us think that the intention is to develop her character to show that she is no longer the person she used to be, and is completely under his spell. By doing this, it distracts the viewer from making the connection that there might be another person at the scene, in a way it puts the audience into her mind set, which is such that she is oblivious to her surroundings and hence does not realize that Maiya has come right behind her, until she sees her own hand hanging on the fence. Fantastic.
In the same way, the murder of Rinsei, and later Kayneth and Sola-Ui, are paced in a way where it happens very quickly, and you don't quite expect that the person would go that far immediately. By the time you make the connection that yes, that is logically what a person who is cold and calculating would do, the incident has already happened.
I think it was very effective to have Kiritsugu bring Kayneth and Sola-Ui out into the open, to basically announce to Saber what he has done, because in doing so the expectation is that Kayneth is "finished" with his plan, and that it is unlikely he would further harm his relationship with his Servant by doing something even more dishonorable and inhuman right in front of her in the open.
But he does just that. Why? Because I think that in reality this wasn't JUST about Kayneth and Lancer. That was one reason for Kiritsugu to do it, since it's practical. But there is also the fact that he wants to set a strong example for his Servant to make it clear to her that he has had enough of the games she and Lancer were playing. They might be knights in their past lives, but he isn't interested in that, and that has no place in the rest of his Grail War. It was a strong statement that he wants to see "the end of honor" as the subtitle says.
Regarding Lancer himself. I found myself very satisfied by how the show presented his exit. While it is true that the dishonorable way he was defeated leaves the actual combat between Saber and Lancer unsatisfying, the final scene of his really hammered home his bitterness and resentment for the entire Grail War, and for the first time I felt he let all his chivalry go and was truly honest to everyone watching. He is filled with hate and sadness, betrayed by fate over and over, and there is no more goodwill in his heart for the realms of men.
The fight between Lancer and Saber this week was also really well presented. It mirrors episode 4 well, simply by showing how different a fight between the two of them would look like if they did not have the cautiousness they did in their first battle. In ep4, the majority of parries were about evasion, and in some ways deceit. Both sides didn't want the other to know exactly what they were capable of, so they tried to test their boundaries and play some mind games. Here in ep16, there is none of that, and it becomes much more physical. Sword clashing on lance, Saber bouncing off the lance with her feet, Lancer blocking her sword hand with his arm, etc. Great stuff.
The final confrontation between Saber and Kiritsugu is something which has been building up since ep7, and it's nice to see them air their views to each other. But it also shows that it is too late for them to talk it out, and that they both feel so reinforced in their views that there is something irreparable in their bond. Kiritsugu believes Saber is too idealistic and weak-minded when it comes to making a commitment to truly change the world. Saber believes that Kiritsugu is too cold, and cares nothing for the means as long as he feels the end is justified enough. They are both right, and there can be no compromise. But they both also need each other. Which is why Iri is probably the only thing holding this relationship together. Not the Grail. Not any end goal. But a single person - who isn't even human.
And the end of the episode concludes on a note which drives home how fragile that link between Saber and Kiritsugu is. If something were to happen to Iri - what then? It's going to get really interesting I think.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
One really nice touch that I appreciated was
Maiya holding up her hand when she finished off Sola-Ui's command seals so that the blood wouldn't splatter on her face.
Wheeljack539
Member
Their very nature and differing outlooks pretty much guaranteed a weak link between them. It is an extreme boon that Iri is there to act as sort of a buffer for Kiritsugu.
You have no idea.
Hmm, looking at this, I'm surprised
you made no mention of Kirei or his comments.
Kagari said:
Agreed. Its also always a blast seeing a new fan go through all of this the first time with no prior knowledge.
Yes, and as Kagari says, I am very thankful for that.
I have some thoughts on that, but I don't really know where it's going to go. They're definitely building up something here.
Gilgamesh is basically the other terrible influence in the show. Kisitsugu's actions might be making the rest of the magical word more cold and calculating to respond to his style, but Gilgamesh is just a devil who tempts men with impure thoughts. His influence on Kirei is interesting, but I'm really not sure where this is going. It seems he is largely saving Kariya simply so he can see how far Kariya and Berserker can go, with regards to their suffering and torment, even if it might affect his allies. I wonder how he will react to his father being murdered. That is something I'm really looking forward to seeing.
It's hilarious because Iri genuinely sounded pissed in this episode.
Judging by the preview pictures, I think it's going to be in the next episode. The long command seal pillar showed up in it.
Wheeljack539
Member
Yes, and as Kagari says, I am very thankful for that.
I have some thoughts on that, but I don't really know where it's going to go. They're definitely building up something here.Gilgamesh is basically the other terrible influence in the show. Kisitsugu's actions might be making the rest of the magical word more cold and calculating to respond to his style, but Gilgamesh is just a devil who tempts men with impure thoughts. His influence on Kirei is interesting, but I'm really not sure where this is going. It seems he is largely saving Kariya simply so he can see how far Kariya and Berserker can go, with regards to their suffering and torment, even if it might affect his allies. I wonder how he will react to his father being murdered. That is something I'm really looking forward to seeing.
I am most definitely going to enjoy your thoughts for the next several episodes. Especialy in the lead up to the finale.
<_< For reals.
You know what it reminded me of? A pissed off mother talking to the husband. It really does.
This episode had really great facial expressions, two other I liked;
the other,
pic: http://www.abload.de/img/kirit69lth.jpg
you can read a lot from the faces, a lot of attention to details.
Kayneth's when risei tell him he's really not a master anymore, you can read a lot in his face and his desperation
the other,
Kiritsugu's when he turns his head after Saber's hero hero talk and how she talks about his childhood, those eyes, you can tell she was 100% right
pic: http://www.abload.de/img/kirit69lth.jpg
you can read a lot from the faces, a lot of attention to details.
Can't wait for kid Kiritsugu from the OP.
He could have easily pulled a gun and tried shit. If not that then he could have tried in other ways of screwing Kiritsugu over. It's not like Kayneth wasn't going to be resentful even if he had been let go that night.
--
I wonder even if Kiritsugu didn't have Avalon whether he would have pulled Saber out anyway. Saber reflects a part of himself that he both hates and idolizes.
Kiritsugu is also the only one who is treating this whole affair as it actually is, mainly war.I loved how he didn't really feel like explaining himself to an idiot who prioritized something as pointless as honor over winning. Kirei is a close second but Kirei is kinda aimless in what he actually wants to accomplish and is more interested in his own personal growth.
Fate/Zero 15
Well that's finally over. The 'showdown' between
felt way too half-assed to me. It was little more than a staring contest, basically. I mean, he had to have realized at some point his
?
Berserker continues to look like an ugly undiscernable mess of CG and filters with no real character whatsoever and I want to see that get adressed.
Fate/Zero 16
Oh wow,
I'm also noticing a certain pattern here. Some of the best episodes thus far involve Saber getting owned in some way or another. I am okay with this.
Well that's finally over. The 'showdown' between
Kariya and Tohsaka
bugs were doing fuck all, right
Berserker continues to look like an ugly undiscernable mess of CG and filters with no real character whatsoever and I want to see that get adressed.
Fate/Zero 16
Oh wow,
Kiritsugu is a right proper bastard, isn't he? I always thought Kayneth, Sola and to a lesser extent Lancer were some of the less interesting characters but that was still a pretty underhanded way to go out.
I'm also noticing a certain pattern here. Some of the best episodes thus far involve Saber getting owned in some way or another. I am okay with this.
Wheeljack539
Member
Well,
Kariya's not in the best frame of mind at the moment, as the bugs are taking their toll. Because he ran away from his family and 'duty' he never received the proper training, and is trying to shoehorn in some 20+ years of neglect in under a week, and the toll its taking on him is extreme both mentally and physically. Had Kariya been properly trained from the start this would probably go much differently. Of course, differently would also mean Kariya'd would probably be an asshole too...
Mad Enhancement robs the Heroes of the Berserker Class of their sanity (hence also their name). Because of this, unless this is broken don't expect much else.
Fate/Zero 16
HOLY FUCK
HOLY FUCK
HOLY FUCK
HOLY FUCK
Kiritsugu is such a bastard. F/SN SPOILERS:
HOLY FUCK
SOLA UI
HOLY FUCK
PRIEST GUY
HOLY FUCK
LANCER
HOLY FUCK
KAYNETH AND SOLA UI
Kiritsugu is such a bastard. F/SN SPOILERS:
I now totally understand Saber's reaction when Shirou tells Saber his father was Emiya. She must have had warning bells going off in her head.
I want to take the time to post about Takashi Suhara, now that ep16 has aired. Suhara has been at Ufotable for years now, and he started out as an entry level in-between animator. Probably the worst job in the industry. Eventually he was finally bumped up to key animator for Kara no Kyoukai, working on both 2nd key animation and key animation in some of the chapters.
With Fate/Zero, he made his directorial debut for TV anime. Ufotable apparently recognized his desire to direct, and his film studies background, and decided to give him a shot at a more important role on the next big project. He directed and storyboarded episodes 4, 9, and 16 so far. Basically all the major Team Lancer episodes, and I think he has done a really good job. These are not easy episodes to plan, especially from the technical art/layout point of view.
I'm always happy to see new talent being grown internally at studios, and examples like this are why Ufotable and Kyoto Animation are probably much better places to work than many other studios, and they generally make the anime industry a better place to build a career.
With Fate/Zero, he made his directorial debut for TV anime. Ufotable apparently recognized his desire to direct, and his film studies background, and decided to give him a shot at a more important role on the next big project. He directed and storyboarded episodes 4, 9, and 16 so far. Basically all the major Team Lancer episodes, and I think he has done a really good job. These are not easy episodes to plan, especially from the technical art/layout point of view.
I'm always happy to see new talent being grown internally at studios, and examples like this are why Ufotable and Kyoto Animation are probably much better places to work than many other studios, and they generally make the anime industry a better place to build a career.
Yeah, that was great.
Episode 4 and 16 are particular standouts for me in the series. Really great stuff and I enjoyed them. Great to know who did them.
Just finished the episode, pretty stunning. I mean you recognize that these things were coming, but the execution of events completely caught me off guard. I was pretty impressed by how
I liked your episode breakdown btw, you touched on a number of things I had floating around in my head while watching the episode. The
It's so true. Luckily there's still many twists and turns even if you know the overall outcome.
just prior to each death that the episode lulls you into this false sense of security. The audience really becomes the character so to speak in many of those scenes. Each death was very abrupt and with very little warning. Compare that to the killing of Ryunosuke, which had a bit more build up, the cold and calculated nature of the bloodshed in this episode is almost shocking
You know its kind of ironic that
we had that discussion last week about characters and servants miraculously making escapes at the last minute and so on. Too suddenly have so many cast members wiped out in short succession caught me completely off guard.
downfall and personality shift for Kayneth was rather fascinating in this episode. Particularly compared to Lancer who, as you mentioned, has been unwilling to compromise on his honor code throughout the show. It made Lancer's final moments all the more memorable. Honestly the entire Lancer story arc has been executed perfectly, so I was pretty happy that it ended in an interesting and exciting fashion. It's even more impressive given the information you posted about the episode director. Good for him, those were pretty key episodes in the show and handled them very well.
It's so true. Luckily there's still many twists and turns even if you know the overall outcome.
Meccanical
Member
Excuse while I pretend the series ends like this.
More thoughts about Episode 16:
Man, there's so much to talk about.
I think the most crushing thing about Kayneth's death is that he did not stay a stubborn opinionated man to the very end. That would have made him a totally obsessive and delusional man who dies because he refuses to admit that he was never meant to fight in this war. Instead, when given an out at the very end, he realized the significant physical and mental damage the war has done to his family, and he was willing as a normal human being to accept defeat and step away from the war. Lancer was always just a tool to him, not a person, and he was willing to sacrifice that just so he and Sola-Ui could leave this battlefield behind.
That makes it much more painful when Kiritsugu plays his final hand. Kiritsugu wasn't really interested in giving him an out. He just wanted Lancer out of the way for good before killing the Masters. It makes him less human, but it also shows that Kiritsugu is more prepared for this war, both in planning and in mental strength. The divide in capability and intent between two Masters is huge between Kiritsugu and Kayneth, and that hammered it home.
Another point I would like to make about the episode title is that it also suggests that a lot of of what happened today might not have occurred if not for the "honor" between knights. If Kayneth had a less honorable Servant, he would probably have already died in episode 8. This would actually have been a better outcome for everyone in Team Lancer, and even for Saber herself. When you don't push Kiritsugu into doing extreme things, it generally ends up happier for everyone involved. Honor is what created this contrived situation, and the only way for Kiritsugu to put an end to this facade at this point was to remove every single player who wasn't on his side.
That makes it much more painful when Kiritsugu plays his final hand. Kiritsugu wasn't really interested in giving him an out. He just wanted Lancer out of the way for good before killing the Masters. It makes him less human, but it also shows that Kiritsugu is more prepared for this war, both in planning and in mental strength. The divide in capability and intent between two Masters is huge between Kiritsugu and Kayneth, and that hammered it home.
Another point I would like to make about the episode title is that it also suggests that a lot of of what happened today might not have occurred if not for the "honor" between knights. If Kayneth had a less honorable Servant, he would probably have already died in episode 8. This would actually have been a better outcome for everyone in Team Lancer, and even for Saber herself. When you don't push Kiritsugu into doing extreme things, it generally ends up happier for everyone involved. Honor is what created this contrived situation, and the only way for Kiritsugu to put an end to this facade at this point was to remove every single player who wasn't on his side.
Man, there's so much to talk about.
The first part sort of echoes what I had originally thought.
There is one thing that did confuse me slightly in the episode. With regards to the
loophole in the Geas Contract. The writing states that Kiritsugu could not harm Kayneth nor could he "intend any harm". The fact that he had planned Kayneth's murder through someone else still seems like he had intention to harm. It's not like he had no knowledge of what was going to happen, and he was obviously the one that ordered it. Not exactly the greatest loophole. Then again I suppose its implied that Kayneth didn't read the contract as carefully as he should have anyway, given his mental state and the desperate situation he was in. He was clearly willing to do anything to at least save himself and his wife.
The contract only goes into effect after the condition is met. If Kiritsugu called Maiya after Lancer's death and said "It's done." he would be breaking the contract. But he planned it all out before this. So he did not intend any harm after the contract was officially made.
Edit: Posting a bunch of major spoiler screenshots is a terrible idea, frostbyte. Don't ever do it again.
I think the way the relationship between Kayneth and Lancer was done exceptionally well. With Kayneth nearly completely crippled he still had the audacity to flaunt his authority over Lancer and insult him so much that Lancer asked him to retract his words, which he had never responded with previously.
But despite their conflict, Kayneth still flinches when Lancer is on the brink of death after having to commit another sin on top of the barrage of insults. Even Kayneth felt regret or remorse after witnessing Lancer's rage.
But despite their conflict, Kayneth still flinches when Lancer is on the brink of death after having to commit another sin on top of the barrage of insults. Even Kayneth felt regret or remorse after witnessing Lancer's rage.
It's pretty much the principle of "I can't kill you but I don't have to save you either".
Lancer really lost it in the end. I can't blame him though, he got the shit end of life not once but twice. Funnily enough the only one who had some sort of happy ending so far was Caster.
Well I was originally thinking that, but
it seems to me that leading Kayneth out into the open is as big a signal as Kiritsugu overtly contacting Maiya to order the hit.
edit
Hm then again upon looking at the scene,
Kayneth wheels out right when Lancer kills himself so I guess the contract wasnt in effect just yet.
It wouldn't have made a difference. Maiya could have killed him from anywhere. Kiritsugu didn't lead him out to make him easier to kill imo, he did it because he wanted Saber to see what sort of man he really is. The intention is different.
Jex
Member
I think it really shows that
Kayneth really didn't even bother thinking the whole thing through properly before he agreed, because it doesn't take much thinking to imagine the variety of ways around that contract.
Moreover, it shows that Kayneth hadn't done his research on Kiritsugu because if he had access to that kind of information he'd be far more cautious about doing any kind of deal with him.
Of course, Kiritsugu had set up the whole situation so that Kayneth wouldn't have any time to think or consider this properly because of the extreme situation he had prepared.
Because he is a boss.
Moreover, it shows that Kayneth hadn't done his research on Kiritsugu because if he had access to that kind of information he'd be far more cautious about doing any kind of deal with him.
Of course, Kiritsugu had set up the whole situation so that Kayneth wouldn't have any time to think or consider this properly because of the extreme situation he had prepared.
Because he is a boss.
I somewhat disagree.
I just don't think he cared. He's never been shown to care about what Saber thinks of him and he certainly didn't feel like 'justifying' his actions.
He also needed an open area for the clean sniper shot.
He also needed an open area for the clean sniper shot.
I guess either way
his intention was not to specifically lure him out so he could be killed. Maybe he didn't really have any intention at all, other than making sure that he could see that Kayneth had indeed fulfilled the contract.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I think the point is moot since
Kayneth would have signed it even if it didn't have the "intend to harm" clause. There really wasn't a reason for it to include that other than to make the viewers less likely to expect Kiritsugu's final move.
On that note,
I liked how they had Kayneth beg for his life just so Kiritsugu could troll him with the contract. It was so gratuitous and cliche, but also hilariously badass.
Oh definitely, actually it wouldn't just be for Saber's benefit. He certainly wanted to show Iri what kind of man he was, and he specifically mentions to her that this was the first time she had seen how he kills. Kind of like "hey this is the man you married", and it was pretty clear from her reaction that she did not know this was coming.
Yeah Kayneth would no doubt have signed anything if it gave him the remote possibility of survival. Either way he had very little to lose since if he didn't sign it he knew that he would have been killed anyway. I think the message to the audience here is that Kiritsugu had completely taken away Kayneth's pride as a mage.
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