Good Job Bob
Member
I don't know man, people still claim Captain America and Thor are good; some comic book fans seem to be really vested in these Marvel movies --- completely unable to acknowledge just how flawed they are.
Marvel's The Avengers |OT| (Dir. Joss Whedon) [Spoilers unmarked]
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I don't know man, people still claim Captain America and Thor are good; some comic book fans seem to be really vested in these Marvel movies --- completely unable to acknowledge just how flawed they are.
If the criteria for a good movie is that it is without flaw, there are no good movies.
Or maybe some people are able to enjoy something recognizing there are flaws? I'm not sure what you're looking for here? Some sort of universal consensus where people start to fall in line and suddenly agree?
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
possibly because they are good? i love spider man as a character, but hated the movies(or should i say movie series.). hate tony stark, but loved iron man. people like things that are good, its as simple as that.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It was entertaining. In parts, fucking outstanding.
But I felt that it never really held consistent to one tone. The first ten minutes were garbage.
But definitely fun, and glad they did not fuck it up.
But I felt that it never really held consistent to one tone. The first ten minutes were garbage.
But definitely fun, and glad they did not fuck it up.
Perhaps. It can surely be criticized as a film, in a million different ways, but the fact remains that it was a very FUN movie for almost everyone. Which isn't something everyone was expecting pre-release, so the whole pre-hype = good movie scenario that usually plays out, isn't that simple here. Can't really ignore the numbers, either, or the fact that everyone is talking about it now, when the trailers and clips before were leaving people not excited at all.
Either way, it's an amazing feat what they were able to do, by grabbing all these separate heroes and put them together in a single film, comics style. Comics fans are loving it and laymen's are having fun.
But I must ask, did you laugh or smile at all during the movie? It could be total shit, but god damn if I wasn't laughing or at least smiling when the theater was. The dynamics were great, imo.
This is true, but it won't be as easy to say for Thor 2 or CA2, if they end up anywhere near their originals. A lot of expectation for those to improve, dramatically. Even IM3 need to get over the hurdle of IM2.
You're using a flawed argument in response to another flawed argument. There is hype and there is acknowledging a great movie when you see one. When was the last time a movie came out and was as huge of a success as this one - and was critically acclaimed?
I thought this was a great movie, clearly Marvel's best, and that opinion won't change any time soon. In fact, after getting the DVD and seeing the deleted scenes, I'll probably enjoy it even more. This is almost up there with The Dark Knight to me.
I'm not a comic book fan, in fact I don't know shit about the backgroung of any of these characters, I watched all movies though, and the ones you mentioned are pretty decent (Thor being the best one).
I think CA2 probably has the biggest hurdle. It's going to need a completely different tone and new motivations for basically everyone in the movie. New direction, new threat, etc. If Marvel does it right, it should be the closest to Avengers in terms of setting, so that'll be interesting to see.
??
No, more like Joss is an unremarkable, unambitious director here no matter what sort of budget The Avengers has. It is clearly expensive but not impressive. Nothing flows, visually and in choreography and editing there is no style present whatsoever, nothing to appreciate, just taking these big IPs and big stars and giving a lot of money to ILM and injecting Joss talk and turning the crank.
As for the other part, it's an ensemble performance where most of the heroes are effectively interchangeable once the fighting starts, which could be remedied by either giving someone like Captain America a stronger role for his unfulfilled leadership position, or by doing something other than "okay, we're taking a big generic dump on Manhattan, let's show each of them dispatch with the alien soldiers easily and then do their special attack to each take out a big bug, the end."
... if you say so.
Nah. Best action movie I've seen in a while. That's not going to change.
Had a similar feeling with the first Iron Man, and still haven't changed my opinion of that one. Don't see why this should be different.
I'm sure Bob would find that incredibly gratifying.
"You liked the design of Asgard and thought Loki had far more depth and rationale to his villainy than most genre bad guys? Did you find Thor's arc predictable but enjoyable thanks to a charismatic lead? Too bad, movie was SHIT."
Clayton Bigsby
Banned
I would love a character piece. Have him deal with the reality that he lost everyone a long time ago. It can be an action movie, but I would love them dealing with some of the psychological issues that he must have with everyone he ever knew or loved being dead.
Hey EviLore, did you enjoy any of the Hulk action sequences at all? Come on, not even the scene where he crashes out of the window and tackles the fighter jet? Sure, a majority of it might be ILM's work, but it was still visually good action. Clear, concise, and well framed.
Definitely. I hope they go with that idea you posted of the Winter Soldier route. A lot of people just don't give a shit about Cap, so it'd going to be interesting to see what they do to make it appealing again.
This. They need to explore that, 'Ultimates' comic style, but at the same time show him as someone who isn't just a super-soldier, but tactically genius. I think the difficulty is going to be balancing the 'Steve Rogers' aspects with the 'Captain America movie' aspects of it, and growing both sides at the same time, in an appealing way.
I have faith, esp. in Feige and after all the Cap downers on his role (hell, even Evans himself) in Avengers. It'll be interesting to see how it goes, though. 'Phase 2' as Feige calls it, will be the real test of the MCU.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
that does sound awesome. it would be awesome to see how he lives his day to day, and still have to deal with a group like aim, or an asshole with the same views as the enemies he risked his life to stop like crossbones.
I thought they showed off each characters strong suits well, from Hawkeye to Thor dealing with his brother, to Stark not giving a shit. I agree the whole aliens thing was meh, and Cap falls short. Obviously the enemy isn't as elaborate to for each character to be doing something that no other character can do, aside from a few exceptions; either way they're wrecking shit and killing aliens, sure.
Tbh, it's a bit hard for me to imagine what they could have done to have a movie like this under 2.5 hours be 'impressive' under some of the critiques like yours. There are certain dynamics that are simply unavoidable. On a certain level, I don't know how there's a way to look at this as unimpressive. Putting all these characters on a single screen, with each of them having their own backstory and history, into one cohesive movie where they all need to 'get along' and have balance while not being the star of the show, isn't something easy. Not to mention all the easter egg type references to events of all the separate individual movies. Joss handled it exceptionally, imo.
I have no retort to this other than complete disagreement.
Joss Whedon wasn't an unremarkable, unambitious director on this movie. George Lucas was an unremarkable, unambitious director on the Star Wars prequels. He had all the money in the world to throw at ILM as well, but that didn't make Attack of the Clones any more interesting to watch. The verbal sparring in Avengers wasn't done while sitting on a couch in shot/reverse shot for five minutes. The climactic fight had characters with clear goals working together to accomplish them, and camera work that was exciting without resorting to a quick-cut barrage like Michael Bay's "signature style". The long tracking shot mid battle that covered all of the main characters was the keystone of the entire finale, and I thought it dripped with "Joss" style.
The style of choreography and editing may not have been to your taste, WHICH IS TOTALLY FINE, but I just don't understand your denial of it's existence.
Yeah, but apparently Whedon's only contribution was in the script where he typed "HULK jumps out window and grabs FIGHTER JET" and the rest had so little visual panache that it might as well have been done by a second unit director...
I thought this sustained shot as the jet spiraled and Hulk ripped bits off was fucking amazing.
cutmeamango
Banned
Why are people even discussing EviLore's opinion? I bet watching Avengers alone was like walking in a dudebro theater in downtown Austin.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The Xtortionist
Member
Went in expecting quick cuts and shaky cam out the ass. Got almost none of that. Left satisfied.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
EviLore must have like the Hero Battle long shot at the end right... right?
That was awesome, you can't deny that if you like Comic Books at all
That was awesome, you can't deny that if you like Comic Books at all
I agree on the action part (which is also something the Batman movies suffer from IMO), but I forgive him because of the first half and character work.
He has the advantage of not needing to set up any of the characters - the main guys have their own origin movies, and Hulk is well known enough through the TV show and other movies that Whedon can just go straight in there. That gives him time to spend with Black Widow and Hawkeye, and they benefit from it.
The action is as generic as transformers. There is no sense of danger or concern. But then these are superheroes, so I'm not sure what you're supposed to do to help with that. They did try to get hawkeye up high as lookout, and CA being more of a leader figure, but it perhaps could have been better handled.
Still a good popcorn flick. I'm still waiting for someone to really define 'action' in this CG age.
Big Baybee
Member
I can understand people saying they didn't like the movie, but when someone says its awful or a shit movie, it just makes me laugh. Best superhero movie ever and that ain't gonna change.
donkey show
Member
Opus Angelorum
Member
^ lol
MisterAnderson
Member
Now that all of the established Marvel heroes are buddy buddy with each other as shown in The Avengers, I'm really curious how they are going to explain leaving out the other Avengers in the upcoming stand-alone sequels (Iron Man 3, Cap 2, Thor 2, etc.). I mean...if there's a big threat (which I can only assume to be the case) you'd think that Cap would show up to help out in Iron Man 3 and vice versa.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
That's kind of a giant claim. That you don't like comic books if you didn't like a specific non-comic book related scene in an action film.
Best genre movie =/= Good movie
Callibretto
Member
the team split up and go their separate ways, and if they split far enough and the problem is immediate enough, you have excuse that you don't have time to locate and call others. Or maybe the problem at hand is personal so they may not want to drag othe heroes to their problem etc
antiquegamer
Member
It work just fine in comic book. You have the Avengers comic and the Iron Man comic book and they exist along side one another. Heck, Spidey at one points have like 3 or 4 books going.
Magic Mushroom
Member
That was a superb shot indeed.
Glass Rebel
Member
At some point we just have to accept that the other members are somehow caught up in their own small worlds and just "too busy" to help, even though we get no explanation as to why. Asking "where is Cap!?" in every Iron Man movie is kinda silly.
My gut reaction is that I liked Avengers better but SM2 is still among my Top 5. Time will have to tell.
Dresden said:
My gut reaction is that I liked Avengers better but SM2 is still among my Top 5. Time will have to tell.
Avengers, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Spider-Man 2, X-Men: First Class, order depending on mood
ScreenSplitter
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R3ywUSqrn8
Not really, no.
(Apart from that scene, Spiderman 2 is pretty good, but for me, Spiderman 3 ruined the other Raimi movies retrospectively)
Arjen
Member
Ugh, no way
Discotheque
Banned
Absolutely. Still the best.
HELL NO!
This scene alone puts Spiderman 2 at the top of my most cringe-worthy SH films.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYOYewO_Veg#t=1m47s
Saw it today - thought it was pretty good, I'm not so sure how this is going hold up on re-watches, but it was one hell of a theatre experience, which is what counts for a film like this, lots of funny moments, some great action (and there's a lot of it). I think in some ways it felt a tad to by-the-books in terms of scripting and direction, but the concept itself is ambitious enough as it is, so I'm impressed enough by how well-executed it was regardless.
Spider-man 2 has more of a emotional core to it, I didn't really give a shit about any of the characters in the Avengers, I just loved seeing them tear shit up and make jokes.
HELL NO!
This scene alone puts Spiderman 2 at the top of my most cringe-worthy SH films.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYOYewO_Veg#t=1m47s
That scene is cool. It's funny and heartwarming. Tobey is teh best.
ScreenSplitter
Member
I don't know, I cared a lot more when Tony flew through that portal and started to freeze up in space than when...Spider-man 2 has more of a emotional core to it, I didn't really give a shit about any of the characters in the Avengers, I just loved seeing them tear shit up and make jokes.
... this fucking happened.
I don't think it's intended to be funny...
Haha that whole bit made me laugh so hard. As I said earlier, what made me laugh more was imagining Nick Fury sneaking into his locker all snickering to himself, then proceeding to gently dip the card into some of the agents blood. I mean, imagine it! Here's Nick Fury, head of S.H.I.E.L.D., and he's reduced to a cheap manipulative ploy because Captain America - and the Avengers altogether I guess - are such assholes that they can't be galvanized on their own to save the world from an impending threat (or from the agents death, or any of the countless other agents death, on its own). Couldn't even get an underling to do it!
I actually don't think there will be much backlash for the simple fact that the comic nerds have waited for this one forever, and this is probably the best they can conceivably ask for (I won't comment on what that implies), so they'll probably continue to gather it in their arms lovingly and discuss Phil's death as if he was Elephant Man.
The way the movie actually pans out, it felt as if Iron Man should have effectively been the leader. Robert Downey Jr. just consumes scenes, but even without his presence, the lines he was written were usually cleverer by half and I'm quite sure he had significantly more screen time AND more important decisions to boot.
Captain America sucks anyway, and I thought his movie was lame too, but man they went above and beyond the call of duty in making him a pussy.
They will be out of town. It's how spiderman comics deal with this for 50 years now.
Everyone will be out of town.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
So I had my second viewing yesterday and it was so weird. I couldn't enjoy the movie at all. And despite the theatre being packed (which is quite impressive for the UK given it's early release here), it was the quietest crowd in the world. On the opening night, everyone understood the jokes, laughed at the right parts, and cheered during some of the fight scenes - I imagine that was the nerd crowd, who like me, had waited for this movie forever. So gushing emotion just poured out without restraint.
But yesterday's showing was eerily quiet. There were a few chuckles here and there, but people seemed to be getting restless. And that's the problem with the movie - it's essentially two long action sequences tied by a knot of shoddy character interactions.
Anyone else have a similar experience on their second viewing?
Oh and on a sidenote, did anyone else think it hilarious just how easily the Helicarier was compromised? I mean jesus christ, it's one of the most important intelligence bases in the world, and the whole thing almost goes crashing down because some dude shoots an explosive arrow at it.
Yep, don't think I'll ever understand the logic behind that. There's a part where he blindly sprays bullets at one of Loki's gunmen for like 10 minutes while Stark is trying to repair the damage done to the Hellicarier. This is fucking Captain America, unable to actually shoot some random soldier, and he's ducking and running and sweating throughout the encounter. The movie really goes out of its way to drive home the point that Cap's only advantage is his shield.
But yesterday's showing was eerily quiet. There were a few chuckles here and there, but people seemed to be getting restless. And that's the problem with the movie - it's essentially two long action sequences tied by a knot of shoddy character interactions.
Anyone else have a similar experience on their second viewing?
Oh and on a sidenote, did anyone else think it hilarious just how easily the Helicarier was compromised? I mean jesus christ, it's one of the most important intelligence bases in the world, and the whole thing almost goes crashing down because some dude shoots an explosive arrow at it.
Yep, don't think I'll ever understand the logic behind that. There's a part where he blindly sprays bullets at one of Loki's gunmen for like 10 minutes while Stark is trying to repair the damage done to the Hellicarier. This is fucking Captain America, unable to actually shoot some random soldier, and he's ducking and running and sweating throughout the encounter. The movie really goes out of its way to drive home the point that Cap's only advantage is his shield.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I knew there was a reason why I found him so damn attractive at the L.A. Meet.
It's actually symptomatic of how ridiculous it would be to have "the most important intelligent base in the world" be a "Helicarrier" to begin with. It has huge fucking weakspots that make it absurdly easy to take down, if it existed in real life the way it did in the film. I mean, those giant helicopter blade things were like shining red weakpoints, like the giant crabs of yore. I mean sure they could scurry some jets to protect the thing I suppose, but any good sneak attack with an even remotely sufficient force of any size would likely be able to cripple the beast.
I'll file it next to giant limitless energy cubes and alien flying seadoos on silly crap that can't exist for the simple fact they're so silly.
Flaws dont make a movie awful if the whole point is to be fun. People watch B movies knowing that flaws are part of the experience. Sometimes its OK to turn your brain off for a bit and just enjoy the spectacle before you.
Honestly I don't know jack shit about the Marvel Universe. the only movie I have seen with any of these characters in it was Iron Man 1 and I enjoyed that immensely. Im not a superhero fan in general. But I enjoyed the ever loving FUCK out of this movie. I dont think I havge enjoyed a pure spectacle popcorn flick like this in a long long time. This movie was just a joy to watch and I will revisit it several times if I can before it leaves theaters.
if you have so much money to spend on movie tickets, and there are so many movies that don't require you shut off your brain, why would you waste your time?
I'm not saying Avengers isn't worth a movie ticket, I thought it was decent enough to deserve that, I'm just saying how much I hate this saying.
No, it's not OK to have to shut off your brain for a movie. That disengages your critical faculties and makes you prone to ridiculous assertions about the quality of said film. If the movie is actually any good, you won't have to disengage your brain.
ScreenSplitter
Member
Yeah it's not like the comics didn't have goofy plotlines or awful bits...
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