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Fighting Games Weekly | May 21-27

Junior developer here chiming in to say this discussion is fucking great. Keep it coming.

Tangent: What's the opinion on Guard Cancels and Just Defending here?

Dahbomb said:
TACs are pretty dumb, no doubt about that. Worst mechanic in the game easily, way worse than X factor.
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I think the worst part about TACs is that it's a borderline good concept with fuck horrible implementation. TACs should cost a bar to use per tag and a correct counter guess gives the opponent what you were aiming for (more meter, stolen meter, your own tag in for up counter). Done.

As it is now, it just feels like an easy mode way of getting around knowing combos. [/I know this sounds elitist but bear with me here, lol]
 
I think TACs are fine, as busted as they are. There definitely needs to be some sort of consequence if your opponent guesses correctly, though. Taking what amounts to the average damage of a jab isn't enough.

AzureJericho said:
Junior developer here chiming in to say this discussion is fucking great. Keep it coming.

Tangent: What's the opinion on Guard Cancels and Just Defending here?
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Guard Cancels are the mechanic I miss the most from fighters, and I wish every day that they would somehow come back.
 
Nyoro SF said:
Because Dudley, Makoto, Yun, Yang, Ken, Ryu and Chun-li are such similar play styles right? There are so many engines that certain characters can't work in anyway, so what gives if 3S nullifies certain playstyles?

And EX projectiles are great moves in Third Strike. So is Akuma's air fireball, Urien's fireballs. Urien's upward projectile in particular is a great anti-air because it exposes late parry attempts.

Jumping in more safe? It's actually a two way guessing game. Will he empty jump and go low, thus exposing my high parry? Maybe he's waiting to parry my anti-air? Or will he attack anyway?

So, have you actually played the game?
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I agree with biosnake. And yes, I own 3rd strike.
 
AzureJericho said:
Tangent: What's the opinion on Guard Cancels and Just Defending here?
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If I have the term right, guard cancelling needs to cost something or be easily baitable/punishable. It basically resets momentum back to neutral or even in the defender's favor. I would have no reason not to do it in KOF, MB, or BB if they didn't cost anything and were really good. Even in AH3, although they cost meter (which you easily gained back anyway), they were really good and sometimes needed to get out of pressure. I would have no reason not to CD counter in KOF13 if it didn't cost meter. It depends on the game its implemented in.

I suck so I don't like just defending because I'm bad at it. I personally don't think it's a bad thing though. As far as I know, Arcsys games let you reduce blockstun, and Melty Blood gives you more meter and gives you more guard gauge. Again, it depends on everything else in the game and how it's implemented.
 
Nyoro SF said:
Because Dudley, Makoto, Yun, Yang, Ken, Ryu and Chun-li are such similar play styles right? There are so many engines that certain characters can't work in anyway, so what gives if 3S nullifies certain playstyles?

And EX projectiles are great moves in Third Strike. So is Akuma's air fireball, Urien's fireballs. Urien's upward projectile in particular is a great anti-air because it exposes late parry attempts.

Jumping in more safe? It's actually a two way guessing game. Will he empty jump and go low, thus exposing my high parry? Maybe he's waiting to parry my anti-air? Or will he attack anyway?

So, have you actually played the game?
Click to expand...

3S doesn't feel like a SF game. I think it is a poor fighting game but a worse SF game.

Parries ruin the fireball aspect of SF. It just doesn't feel right.
 
AzureJericho said:
Junior developer here chiming in to say this discussion is fucking great. Keep it coming.

Tangent: What's the opinion on Guard Cancels and Just Defending here?



I think the worst part about TACs is that it's a borderline good concept with fuck horrible implementation. TACs should cost a bar to use per tag and a correct counter guess gives the opponent what you were aiming for (more meter, stolen meter, your own tag in for up counter). Done.

As it is now, it just feels like an easy mode way of getting around knowing combos. [/I know this sounds elitist but bear with me here, lol]
Click to expand...

Thats exactly what it is in its current implementation. Getting hit with "Criminal Combo" over and over just makes want to turn off the game.

The most frustrating thing about TACs is that you can break them. If they were unbreakable I would be less salty about the mechanic overall. Does anyone know why they changed the TAC counter reward from putting the opponent in a reverse TAC instead of the combo breaker they have now? No one would use it? The only thing good about the TAC counter as it is now is that you can KO off of it.
 
Nyoro SF said:
Because Dudley, Makoto, Yun, Yang, Ken, Ryu and Chun-li are such similar play styles right? There are so many engines that certain characters can't work in anyway, so what gives if 3S nullifies certain playstyles?

And EX projectiles are great moves in Third Strike. So is Akuma's air fireball, Urien's fireballs. Urien's upward projectile in particular is a great anti-air because it exposes late parry attempts.

Jumping in more safe? It's actually a two way guessing game. Will he empty jump and go low, thus exposing my high parry? Maybe he's waiting to parry my anti-air? Or will he attack anyway?

So, have you actually played the game?
Click to expand...

When I mean decreasing playstyles I'm mostly talking about playing real lame style like a guile or dhalsim type character. You can try to play lame in 3S but it's extraordinarily difficult thanks to parries. Rush down is king in 3S.

Some fireballs are okay in 3S but they are nothing compared to the utility of fireballs in ST or even AE2012. Also I don't know what you are trying to get at by pointing out characters like Dudley, Makoto, Yun, and Yang, Yeah they play differently but they're all about rush down.

Jumping should be used in situations to punish people for making mistakes and to pressure people in certain situations, not to put you into a fucking guessing game.

And yes I've played 3S is shitload back in the day.
 
AzureJericho said:
I think the worst part about TACs is that it's a borderline good concept with fuck horrible implementation. TACs should cost a bar to use per tag and a correct counter guess gives the opponent what you were aiming for (more meter, stolen meter, your own tag in for up counter). Done.

As it is now, it just feels like an easy mode way of getting around knowing combos. [/I know this sounds elitist but bear with me here, lol]
Click to expand...

You read my mind bro. TAC's have very POOR implementation but the concept itself is interesting. TAC's shouldn't even have a guessing game involved, it's just stupid altogether. Strangely enough it's the only mechanic that "beats" or keeps Jean in check.

The other thing that I've said before is that not every character can take advantage of them incredibly well like Doom or other flight / air dash characters.
 
Nyoro SF said:
I remember you saying that a Street Fighter game isn't a Street Fighter game unless projectiles rule the game or something like that. So... whatever.
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Yea and I remember you overlooking the importance of projectiles and footsies in traditional street fighter games. So...Whatever.
 
3S is a different game than traditional SF.

Shocking!

:)

One doesn't have to be other. SF3 series took it's own patch, and that is fine. It's wasn't about traditional SF zoning. I don't think that is a bad thing in itself. The other games have that.
 
Professor Beef said:
Guard Cancels are the mechanic I miss the most from fighters, and I wish every day that they would somehow come back.
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From the little I've played of things like Vampire Saviour, I've always found them to be a very interesting and well thought out mechanic. As the aggressor, you still maintained a sense of tension because you never knew what was coming from it and as the defender, you had one option with a real cost.

Personally, I like the idea behind parries and Third Strike is one of my comfort food fighters, but I like the ongoing for or against its got going for itself. It encourages me to think outside the box somewhat listening to both sides and playing devil's advocate when need be. :P
 
The 3S hate in here is laughable. One of the best 2D fighters of all time.

Give me timing/skill-based parries any day of the week over fucking Ultras that reward the player for getting their asses kicked.
 
it's a good game in it's own right.


ScOULaris said:
The 3S hate in here is laughable. One of the best 2D fighters of all time.

Give me timing/skill-based parries any day of the week over fucking Ultras that reward the player for getting their asses kicked.
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this is laughable.
 
Parallax Scroll said:
in third strike tournaments everyone starts in losers bracket cause only losers play third strike
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One of my friends said it best. He wish he had a 3S board just so he can throw it in the trash.

ScOULaris said:
The 3S hate in here is laughable. One of the best 2D fighters of all time.

Give me timing/skill-based parries any day of the week over fucking Ultras that reward the player for getting their asses kicked.
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idIZ3M.gif


Whiffing builds meter. Do not want.

And this is just all imo. I hope people know that and not to take this discussion to serious.
 
ScOULaris said:
Give me timing/skill-based parries any day of the week over fucking Ultras that reward the player for getting their asses kicked.
Click to expand...

You know that you still have to connect with the Ultras, right? Just because you're getting whooped doesn't mean you get a free "take away 40% of my opponent's health" move whenever you feel like it.
 
Professor Beef said:
You know that you still have to connect with the Ultras, right? Just because you're getting whooped doesn't mean you get a free "take away 40% of my opponent's health" move whenever you feel like it.
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Plus that Ultra complaint is heavily outdated. The game is about wakeup offense.

SF2 Turbo, SF3 3S, SFA2, SFA3, SF4 AE 2012... all great games. SFA3 might need a bit of nostalgia goggles but hey. I can forgive it. Just a little.
 
Professor Beef said:
You know that you still have to connect with the Ultras, right? Just because you're getting whooped doesn't mean you get a free "take away 40% of my opponent's health" move whenever you feel like it.
Click to expand...

Let's be honest here. Nearly every character has an Ultra (or 2) that has next to no startup frames, so landing lucky, random Ultras is not all that uncommon. Sure, you don't see it much at a high level because they only use Ultras when they've set them up properly, but Ultras are incredibly powerful rewards for taking damage.

A parry, on the other hand, not only requires skill to time but also to follow it up with something meaningful.

Whiffing building meter is a bit ridiculous, though. I agree with that.
 
ScOULaris said:
Let's be honest here. Nearly every character has an Ultra (or 2) that has next to no startup frames, so landing lucky, random Ultras is not all that uncommon. Sure, you don't see it much at a high level because they only use Ultras when they've set them up properly, but Ultras are incredibly powerful rewards for taking damage.

A parry, on the other hand, not only requires skill to time but also to follow it up with something meaningful.

Whiffing building meter is a bit ridiculous, though. I agree with that.
Click to expand...

WAT
 
ScOULaris said:
Let's be honest here. Nearly every character has an Ultra (or 2) that has next to no startup frames, so landing lucky, random Ultras is not all that uncommon. Sure, you don't see it much at a high level because they only use Ultras when they've set them up properly, but Ultras are incredibly powerful rewards for taking damage.

A parry, on the other hand, not only requires skill to time but also to follow it up with something meaningful.

Whiffing building meter is a bit ridiculous, though. I agree with that.
Click to expand...



landing an ultra requires timing, execution, and skill also, particularly in a tense situation. they are not freebies by any means.
 
Imm0rt4l said:
WAT
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You don't think so? Nearly every character can beat a poke or pretty much any normal on wakeup with an Ultra. Most of them come out that fast and/or have a few frames of invincibility in the beginning.

If someone is applying wakeup pressure, you can always just throw out a random Ultra on wakeup and there's a decent chance that 40% of their life is going bye-bye.
 
ScOULaris said:
Let's be honest here. Nearly every character has an Ultra (or 2) that has next to no startup frames.
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Name them. I enjoy a good laugh.

EDIT:
ScOULaris said:
You don't think so? Nearly every character can beat a poke or pretty much any normal on wakeup with an Ultra. Most of them come out that fast and/or have a few frames of invincibility in the beginning.

If someone is applying wakeup pressure, you can always just throw out a random Ultra on wakeup and there's a decent chance that 40% of their life is going bye-bye.
Click to expand...

What the fuck? Are you serious?
KuGsj.gif
KuGsj.gif
KuGsj.gif
 
ScOULaris said:
Let's be honest here. Nearly every character has an Ultra (or 2) that has next to no startup frames, so landing lucky, random Ultras is not all that uncommon. Sure, you don't see it much at a high level because they only use Ultras when they've set them up properly, but Ultras are incredibly powerful rewards for taking damage.

A parry, on the other hand, not only requires skill to time but also to follow it up with something meaningful.

Whiffing building meter is a bit ridiculous, though. I agree with that.
Click to expand...

pWQEI.gif
 
AzureJericho said:
Junior developer here chiming in to say this discussion is fucking great. Keep it coming.

Tangent: What's the opinion on Guard Cancels and Just Defending here?
Click to expand...
Guard Cancels are good as long as the cost and reliability of them are well balanced. Often times they lead to very poor damage follow ups but resets momentum which I think is the preferred variation of them but I'm not against decent damage follow ups as long it isn't ridiculous gains (maybe SFxT's GC -> Switch Cancels borders on this line? I don't really play the game to know how powerful that option is). In Guilty Gear/Blaz Blue, GCs cost 50% meter which is the same as a super and a roman cancel. I feel the usage here is well done as the cost is not negligible, the reliability is fair (has invul start up but can be baited), it prorates 50% of any following combos if they can even be done, the opponent if hit is dealt single digit damage as well as the hit itself can't kill and of course the the opponent is blown back, the primary use of GCs. Other variations of GCs probably have their own special rules but in general I really like them.

Just Defending I could take it or leave it. As long as it's not ridiculous in anyway I don't mind it.
 
ScOULaris said:
You don't think so? Nearly every character can beat a poke or pretty much any normal on wakeup with an Ultra.
Click to expand...
I'm going to skip the pointing and laughing and just inform you that this is due to invincibility frames, not fast start-up.

How many SF4 tournaments have you watched lately that are won and lost on wake-up ultras? Seriously, dude.
 
Eh, if you guys don't agree with me about Ultras beating normals on wakeup then I don't feel like explaining myself. I see it every damn day when I'm playing. I make use of it myself quite often, and I find it to be too easy to land considering the damage that it deals and the fact that it is rewarded to the player for taking damage.

On another note, you know what game had amazing parry mechanics? WeaponLord for the SNES. If you never played this gem, check out some gameplay videos here:

http://weaponlord.crunchtimegames.com/

That game had high, mid, and low parries while standing and mid/low parries in the air. It also had power deflects, guard crushes, crumples, weapon breaks, character damage, custom fatalities, and just an awesomely deep fighting system all-around. It's a bit sluggish to play, though, which is why I wish we'd see an updated hi-res 2D followup.

Edit: And here's a pretty good Fighterpedia episode all about WeaponLord.
 
Ultras beat normals on wakeup. That is not surprising at all.

Supers in damn near every game will beat out a normal on wakeup.

Why is this a problem?
 
ScOULaris said:
Eh, if you guys don't agree with me about Ultras beating normals on wakeup then I don't feel like explaining myself. I see it every damn day when I'm playing. I make use of it myself quite often, and I find it to be too easy to land considering the damage that it deals and the fact that it is rewarded to the player for taking damage.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong. Ultras do beat some normals on wakeup (if you time most of them meaty, though, they'll recover before the ultra comes out). It's definitely not because they have 0f startup, though. I'm pretty sure Ryu's and Ken's DP ultra have 7f startup.

The real problem is FADC ultras if you want to point out wakeup shenanigans.
 
I love stuffing reversal supers with attacks. Not many games I can do that in though.

UMvC3 and KOF13 offer me that opportunity a lot.
 
OceanBlue said:
I don't remember a parry system in Blazblue (admittedly I didn't play the game for very long). I mean, it has IB I guess, but... are you sure you aren't talking about Guilty Gear?

Melty Blood has a parry system as well. Sometimes I agree that projectile characters would be better off without it, but pressure is so strong in that game that you basically need it. It also has a whiff animation and gets counter hit, so...
Click to expand...
I just meant the IB system, which is parry-like.

AzureJericho said:
Junior developer here chiming in to say this discussion is fucking great. Keep it coming.

Tangent: What's the opinion on Guard Cancels and Just Defending here?
Click to expand...
Guard Cancels should have a counter or else the game becomes too defensive.
Just Defense is a really frustrating aspect of a game for people who like to zone. BlazBlue is partially boring for me because there's pretty much no point in playing keepaway if your opponent is good at blocking. Good games encourage a wide variety of playstyles.

I think the worst part about TACs is that it's a borderline good concept with fuck horrible implementation. TACs should cost a bar to use per tag and a correct counter guess gives the opponent what you were aiming for (more meter, stolen meter, your own tag in for up counter). Done.
Click to expand...
Costs a bar, no counters, TACs don't reset hitstun scaling.

As it is now, it just feels like an easy mode way of getting around knowing combos. [/I know this sounds elitist but bear with me here, lol]
Click to expand...
I think you're absolutely right. What makes TACs worse, outside of being a guessing game, is that they disproportionately favor flight characters, who are already most of our top tiers.

Professor Beef said:
I think TACs are fine, as busted as they are. There definitely needs to be some sort of consequence if your opponent guesses correctly, though. Taking what amounts to the average damage of a jab isn't enough.
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Guessing is bad! Yomi is good.

SolarKnight said:
They should just go back to what TvC did, it's unbreakable and switches your character, but it requires meter rather than giving you more.
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Yes!
 
SolarKnight said:
They should just go back to what TvC did, it's unbreakable and switches your character, but it requires meter rather than giving you more.
Click to expand...

I can definitely agree with this. TvC's mechanics in general were pretty great, they definitely had more of an equal risk/reward thing going on.
 
Karsticles said:
Guessing is bad! Yomi is good.
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On this note, I'm not a big fan of TACs in general. Whether it's guessing or yomi or whatever, it isn't really interesting. At least with things like bursting or multiple tech options, whatever you do has big implications depending on screen position and your style of play (whether you like to take risks or play safe or whatever). With TACs, unless you play Phoenix you're just choosing a direction and mashing exchange. I don't feel like there are mindgames in play whenever Noel Brown or whoever uses a TAC combo and it doesn't work. I just chalk it up to the other player guessing right on the TAC or mashing all directions.

I really hope I'm wrong and I just think this because I'm a scrub or whatever, but that type of guessing game isn't what makes fighting games interesting for me. Maybe I just think this because I'm not a big Marvel fan though.
 
Stabby McSter said:
I HEARD THEY'RE RELEASING SUPER STREET FIGHTER 4 NEXT YEAR YOU DIDN'T HEAR IT FROM ME THOUGH
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You know we use to joke about this every single year... then one day Capcom had this website with a picture of the earth spinning in circles with a countdown.

Then we joke that countdown was SF4....


Then it happened. o.0
 
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