You see sheeple?! This is the very reason the founding fathers created the 2nd amendment. When the aliens invade we will need to protect ourselves!
Marvel's The Avengers |OT| (Dir. Joss Whedon) [Spoilers unmarked]
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You see sheeple?! This is the very reason the founding fathers created the 2nd amendment. When the aliens invade we will need to protect ourselves!
Auron_Kale
Member
I was trying to figure it out every so often, but then started focusing on the other weapons lol.
Any guesses on Hawkeye's gun at the beginning as well as Hill's? Also Cap was using one of the submachine guns from the group of soldiers.
Sincerely, thank you for breaking it down. The interesting thing is that it sounds like you and I had about the same level of GL exposure prior to seeing the film, but ended up reacting to it so differently.
With regard to the two major flaws you described, Hal's personality didn't strike me as unlikable at all. In fact one of the things I loved about the movie was the Batman parallel: the way both characters lost parents at a young age, but how differently they reacted to the pain. While Batman was initially born of Bruce's fear and desire for revenge/justice, Hal earns his Green Lantern powers essentially because his emotional scarring killed off his fear. Watching his father die was the realization of his greatest childhood fear, and that gives him a weird relationship with the emotion. He feels he's been through the worst, so there's nothing left to be afraid of. He's not afraid of death, so that makes him more fearless than most; but he's also emotionally damaged. Fear worms its way back into him as a lack of faith in himself, which manifests as recklessness and irresponsibility. This is countered by the faith placed in him by Carol, and the GL ring itself which chose him in spite of his doubts. By the end of the movie he has faced those personal demons and learned to embrace his fears, overcoming them with courage. That's what makes him a worthwhile Lantern: he's capable of overcoming his fear rather than submitting to it.
Fair point. Presumably it doesn't happen often, and rears its head here for the sake of the narrative. I thought of it as his character reaching a crossroads: he's at a point in his life where his fear is going to catch up with him, and without an intervention, his recklessness will be the death of him.
Hal's a test pilot - his job was to try to beat the drones. He exposed a flaw in their design which could have been exploited by similarly reckless enemy pilots; a flaw which was then fixed. The other employees are afraid they'll lose their jobs, so a gang of them decide to beat him up. Rather than stay down, he tries to fight back, and inadvertently unleashes the ring's power. All it really does is send them flying. They show up later in the movie looking sheepish when Carol's father confirms their jobs are safe.
There's a moment of conflict, but I think he'd have saved anyone who was standing in the path of the chopper. Obviously since it's Carol there's more 'urgency' to the scene, but I don't think it's self-interest that makes him delay - it's self doubt that he has to overcome, which is one of the themes of his character.
He does quit the corps, but the guardians are too worried about Parallax to waste time with him. And the ring's choice is given more weight than the whims of a rookie recruit. He bails for a couple of days, but that was the time he needed to get over his shit and commit to the corps.
He's paralysed at the end of that fight, but he manages to save everyone except Hector's father.
They're convinced, but they feel they need time to prepare an adequate counter measure. They don't want to rush off half-cocked. Sinestro feels the corps can handle Parallax, and manages to persuade them to give him a shot. He fails. He then convinces them that the only way to beat Parallax is to use its own power, because the yellow power will always be stringer than the green.
They refuse because they want more time to prepare their counter measure. Hal convinces them not to use the yellow ring, and tries to take on Parallax himself.
The Corps obey the Guardians, and the Guardians are holding back until they feel prepared.
This, I'll give you. Totally stupid. It would have been much better if they'd used the fight to show that - like Abin Sur before him - Hal was rare among the Green Lanterns because he had sufficient willpower to capture or destroy Parallax; something that seems impossible even to seasoned Lanterns like Sinestro.
Not in the movie, but that's more for the fans who know Sinestro's character arc. He's a great space-cop, but he feels he can do his job better by controlling people and subjugating them rather than by protecting their freedom. He knows with the yellow ring he has a chance to change the system set in place by the Guardians, and he thinks he can do better. I think viewers are just supposed to assume he succumbs to a lust for power or his own arrogance, as Krona does before he becomes Parallax.
To bring this back on topic, the faults described above are not worlds away from those often levelled at the big Marvel movies, but the general consensus of appreciation always outweighs them. Not enough action? Iron Man 1. Bizarre character development? Thor. Odd narrative flow? Captain America. Yet while some write those films off as tripe, the vast majority of viewers enjoy the films for what they're trying to be rather than focusing on issues they display, regardless of whether they're comic fans or not. It's still a mystery to me why GL is so reviled by comparison.
Good Job Bob
Member
GL is totally on the level of Captain America, Thor and Iron Man 2.
Anyone saying otherwise is being disingenuous.
Anyone saying otherwise is being disingenuous.
You are not even trying anymore.
Just the opposite: he's trying too hard.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
What is this? I don't even...
Green Lantern is absolutely mediocre and was trying to hard to be something it's not.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Must be all the bad stuff about it I heard before finally watching it, but I didn't think Green Lantern was so bad. Just, incredibly boring. Truth be told I spent the whole movie talking so maybe I just didn't pay enough attention.
Good Job Bob
Member
I'm not trolling, I enjoyed the MCU movies more since they're all tied into a larger universe and whatnot; but speaking from an objective standpoint I can't honestly say that those three movies are better than Green Lantern.
..and even if they are the tiniest bit better it's not by much.
lazybones18
Banned
I won't say Green Lantern was shit, but it was merely decent, or as Anti-Montior put it, boring
Yeah. Say it enough and you can convince yourself.
T.M. MacReady
NO ONE DENIES MEMBER
correct.
The Lamonster
Member
I thought Thor was really well done. Even my girlfriend liked it.
The Lamonster
Member
Thanks man, I'm going to check this out tonight.
What can I expect? I'm 28 and loved the Avengers movie, but is this cartoon for little kids or is it well done?
Same here. I honestly hadn't heard how horrible it was, for the most part. Just some people saying it was meh. I went in optimistic but not expecting much. Turned out worse than I thought it could be done.
Animation is not the best to be honest if you are used to the DC stuff WB animation puts out and the cartoon was produced before Marvel setup their own animation unit. But the writing is stellar and it touches upon a lot of classic stories and repackages them for a newer audience. Yeah so watch the entire first season. Second season is airing right now,
ViewtifulJC
Banned
PETER SARSGAARD
...and that's it. Literally the only good element in that entire film.
Seriously I liked him more then Hal.
I'm super late to the party, but I finally got to see the film with my wife last Friday, and absolutely loved it.
I thought the beginning was kind of slow, but then it picked up significantly once the team got together and started interacting with each other.
Film felt like a Whedon film for sure.
I thought all of the character were handled very well, and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Hawkeye and Black Widow, in particular Black Widow, because I wasn't a fan of Scarlett Johanson in Iron Man 2 (I am, of course, a fan of Scarlett Johanson for purely pervy reasons...).
I'm also in the camp that really liked the Captain America and Thor movies, despite not really being fans of either character. I never read Avengers, or their individual books, but the characters just didn't interest me.
As for Cap in the Avengers, I thought he was awesome. Not so much because he did these uber awesome things, but because of his heart and earnestness. I thought the solo Cap movie did a great job of making Steve Rogers likable and endearing, and I don't think that changed for The Avengers. I love that he's the straight man (ironically, since Chris Evans is quite hilarious), and that we get to see him segue into his born leader role, quite naturally in the film. He kept everyone to task, despite being younger than most of them, and kind of out of touch with the rest of the team and the world. Not to mention being in a power class significantly lower than the "big three."
I also thought Mark Ruffalo was an EXCELLENT Bruce Banner, and added some really subtle things to his character (like the hand fidgeting, which I don't know if it was a conscious decision or just a quirk of Ruffalo's, but he was always either gripping something in his hands, or simply clasping them together; for the character, I like the implication that he's trying with all of his might to keep the Hulk at bay). I was surprised at how much more of Banner and Hulk I wanted to see, despite enjoying Ed Norton's Hulk in the previous film. I think Ruffalo is a much better fit.
Renner as Hawkeye did great, and I'm impressed at how well the movie gave everybody something to do, that was appropriate to their strength levels and roles in the team. I didn't really feel like anybody was excluded.
The fact that Marvel pulled this off is the most impressive thing about the entire Marvel Film Universe.
I loved both end credits sequences as well. Can't wait for another, and I'm interested to see what they do with the individual films of these characters going forward.
I thought the beginning was kind of slow, but then it picked up significantly once the team got together and started interacting with each other.
Film felt like a Whedon film for sure.
I thought all of the character were handled very well, and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Hawkeye and Black Widow, in particular Black Widow, because I wasn't a fan of Scarlett Johanson in Iron Man 2 (I am, of course, a fan of Scarlett Johanson for purely pervy reasons...).
I'm also in the camp that really liked the Captain America and Thor movies, despite not really being fans of either character. I never read Avengers, or their individual books, but the characters just didn't interest me.
As for Cap in the Avengers, I thought he was awesome. Not so much because he did these uber awesome things, but because of his heart and earnestness. I thought the solo Cap movie did a great job of making Steve Rogers likable and endearing, and I don't think that changed for The Avengers. I love that he's the straight man (ironically, since Chris Evans is quite hilarious), and that we get to see him segue into his born leader role, quite naturally in the film. He kept everyone to task, despite being younger than most of them, and kind of out of touch with the rest of the team and the world. Not to mention being in a power class significantly lower than the "big three."
I also thought Mark Ruffalo was an EXCELLENT Bruce Banner, and added some really subtle things to his character (like the hand fidgeting, which I don't know if it was a conscious decision or just a quirk of Ruffalo's, but he was always either gripping something in his hands, or simply clasping them together; for the character, I like the implication that he's trying with all of his might to keep the Hulk at bay). I was surprised at how much more of Banner and Hulk I wanted to see, despite enjoying Ed Norton's Hulk in the previous film. I think Ruffalo is a much better fit.
Renner as Hawkeye did great, and I'm impressed at how well the movie gave everybody something to do, that was appropriate to their strength levels and roles in the team. I didn't really feel like anybody was excluded.
The fact that Marvel pulled this off is the most impressive thing about the entire Marvel Film Universe.
I loved both end credits sequences as well. Can't wait for another, and I'm interested to see what they do with the individual films of these characters going forward.
WordAssassin
Member
I thought Bendis did a really awesome and interesting take on Ultimate Carnage.
I think this is one of those mysteries I'll never solve. Most of my opinions of the other recent super-flicks are pretty much in line with everyone else: I love all the Marvel Cinematic Universe stuff, feel that the Hulk is obviously the weakest of the films; prefer Thor to Iron Man, but recognize Downey's Stark is phenomenal and possibly the best thing about the MCU; and thought Captain America was solid even if the movie falters a bit in the third act. But for some reason I don't see the turkey that everyone else does when I watch Green Lantern.
So true. I just rewatched Norton's Hulk, and there's no contest. Not that Norton's Banner is bad; it's more that Ruffalo's take on the character is exceptional.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Awesome!
The Elite
BOSS
This will get regular use on GAF.
Every time a Gaffer announces their birthday.
Auron_Kale
Member
Birthday gif is awesome. I'll probably use that when texting my friends happy birthday.
You make good points, Aske, and I learned stuff about GL that I otherwise hadn't known about. At this point, I'll concede that I'd have to rewatch the film to provide any decent counterpoints to yours. Like I said, my memories of many of the particulars are fuzzy, but I do remember the effect the little issues had on my feelings about the movie as a whole. I also feel that in many parts of your response, you're injecting your familiarity of the comic into your appreciation of the movie. Well, I don't have that. I'm taking this movie (mostly) on its own merits.
The whole Batman parallel doesn't work for me because Bruce does not earn the right to be Batman. He IS Batman, he creates the persona through sheer force of will and through intense struggle, a struggle that we the audience are guided through, connecting us to the character. In contrast, Hal is given the power and then has to figure out how to live up to it. We are not shown his true merit until well into the film. The whole willpower thing can be seen as a shared trait in the two characters, but the way the GL movie handles it is rather clumsy. Watching a character rewarded with such great power and then forced to watch as he ruminates over his fear for 2/3 of the movie is not fun and not endearing at all to me. Batman and characters such as Spider-Man are endearing because they learn to overcome their internal struggles sparked by the ramifications of their own actions. Speaking solely about the movies, Peter Parker must face the reality that he was partly responsible for his uncle's death. Bruce's fear led his family to meet a tragic fate, and when he faces that fear, he is hit by an life-changing epiphany. Then they have their first acts as superheros that establish their heroics. Succeed or fail, they take something away from the experience, and they learn from it. Then we get to see them at their lowest points, when all hope seems to be lost, no matter what they do. When they do overcome it, it completes their natural arc.
Hal doesn't go through this arc. We are just constantly told that he's afraid. Sure, we're shown that flashback of his father dying, a cause to which you projected onto Hal a personality that is "emotionally damaged", which is all fine and good, the way it's done is really contrived. The guy keeps his father's photo in the cockpit. That seems like a really bad idea. He starts out a prick who is afraid, he continues to be a prick who's afraid. His first act involved harming people who he wronged. Oh, about that ambush outside the bar, I'm pretty sure I remember that those guys were done roughing Hal up. They were about to walk away, and Hal just spouts out some quip and then punches all three of them with the giant green fist. Granted, he may not have known that would happen, but the way that particular stunt was shot, it seemed like it was the only outcome. I mean, I think he grabbed something to throw at them. Anyway, then he saves Carol at a party but doesn't really take anything away from it, then he goes back to being afraid. He face Hector, and the battle comes to a draw, but he is gripped by fear upon learning about this new threat: Parallax. Is this his lowest moment? I'm not sure. So he reminds us again that he is afraid, then Carol, in all her wisdom, tells Hal that he can overcome fear. He doesn't come to this conclusion in a natural way, he has to be TOLD that he can do it. Then he faces the big bad, who doesn't seem to pose that much of a struggle for him. This results in the lack of any catharsis for the audience.
I'm not saying that all origins have to follow the Batman or Spider-Man formula (and many don't), but there are reasons why its so popular, and the movie doesn't get it.
Disregarding that, since my knowledge of GL is not comprehensive and because my memory of the movie is spotty, for now I'll just say that the biggest reason GL fails for me was because its structure was just poor. I remember this clearly. Most of this can be attributed to the bad decision to use a villain that is of such a large scope and universal in the scale of its threat. It does give the story a sense of urgency and danger, but it robs it of the space to allow the protagonist, and the audience, to absorb the intracacies of this grand new world of settings and characters. I understand the need to root the conflict to Earth, because it's what audiences are familiar with, but it doesn't guarantee success unless we find the actions while on Earth interesting. The characters are generally unlikeable. I will follow up on this later on.
Anyway, continuing with how the movie failed to establish the GL Corp and the rest of the universe at-large. This is what GL First Flight did so well. It had Hal visit alien planets, interact with various species and threats, and it allowed him ample time to build a comradery with the GL Corps, especially with Sinestro. They are pretty much space cops, right? I would have loved to see Hal go on a patrol with one of them, like in First Flight.
We don't get any of that. Because the villain is so huge in its scale, we are introduced to the GL Corps when it is at its weakest and most afraid. We are not shown what they are capable of before they all start to get wiped out by Parallax. Their mystique, and our sense of wonder, is pretty much compromised from the beginning.
This problem extends to the portrayal of the Guardians. I must say that I am not too familiar with their comic incarnation. I only have GL First Flight to draw upon. You say that the Guardians hesitated to act until they were prepared, but during that time, people are dying, worlds are dying, and they have this army of thousands of Green Lanterns at their beck and call, but they still dawdle until one of their Corps takes action. I don't know if this is how the Guardians are portrayed in the comics, do they always withhold such critical information from their Corps? They aren't very proactive. They just stay silent and whole time. This could be because they are afraid, and I do believe Hal even accuses them of such. For a first movie that's supposed to be for the uninitiated, showing the Guardians to be so ambiguous really compromises the concept of the GL Corps and makes me seriously wonder about the efficacy of this organization. Not good for impressing newbies like me.
They allow one of their own, and a brand new recruit at that, to face a universe-threatening foe by himself without aid of even a couple hundred GLs. You said that they didn't want to act on half-cocked measures, well, there are over 3000 Green Lanterns. One thousand would've really helped. In the end, it feels like they compromised and resort to constructing a yellow ring without exploring all possible solutions.
Then the movie ultimately makes their hemming and hawing pretty much unfounded because Hal is able to take down Paralax all by his lonesome and in the most ridiculous way ever conceived in a superhero movie, all while the GL's stand around to watch.
Granted, this all exists to show how unique Hal is and how special humans are. This isn't just an issue I have with GL, but I really dislike the trope that humans have to be so goddamn special in the universe. Why can't all the other alien GLs be shown to overcome fear as well? Sinestro seems to appreciate Hal's bravery at the end and that's nice and all, but it really paints the GL Corps to be rather lacking in resolve. And that's a problem with a lot of human-like aliens in many sci-fi properties.
Moving on to a related topic, the Guardians are really unlikeable. Really, they are weird, unsettling and shown to be mostly inactive throughout the film. This unlikeability extends to most of the cast of characters in the film. If they aren't, then they are either uninteresting or given too little screen time to develop any personality that the viewer can latch onto. Abin Sur dies too quickly before we get to know him. We are only told that he is a great, wise GL. Carol? Okay, she's...responsible and she's there to make Hal feel like he isn;t so damn useless. Hal's nerdy friend? He's...there, I guess. Kilowog and Tomare (sp?) aren't around long enough for us to get attached. Sinestro's personality for the most part is developed through his agitated reaction to Hal, which can vary on effectiveness depending on how one percieves Hal. The other way the movie develops Sinestro is by showing us that he has a staunch moral code and a strong imperative to protect the Corps. He even comes around and begins to respect Hal at the end of the film, who showed him that will can overcome fear. But then they had to go and have him put on the yellow ring in the credits. I understand you when you said that it's just a teaser for what's to come, but still, I don't think it was the right move to show it so early. Now I know he'll turn evil without knowing why.
Hector is actually one of the few characters that is sympathetic, if not likeable or relatable. He gets the shit end of the bargain, and it's really a testament to Peter Saarsgard's acting that I actually ended up liking him more than Hal, which says a lot about the movie.
None of this is really an issue with Thor and Cap, which had lots of likeable characters.
Anyway, bringing it back to Marvel, I think GL is much worse than Thor and Captain America, two movies that I quite liked despite their pacing and character issues. Thor's feels rushed and could've used more time on Earth. He's there for a few days but his character changes pretty drastically, even though we're not really shown how. But we do know that his actions caused (to his belief) his father's death and started a war in Asgard, putting the lives of many into danger and causing him a great deal of guilt. Like I mentioned much earlier in this post, we are shown his hubris and from there on we can surmise his eventual change. That and his budding love for Jane is enough to convince me.
I had issues with the second half of Cap, but it's more to do with how rushed it felt more than anything else. I can tolerate it. I just really loved the portrayal of Steve Rogers.
Look, I haven't seen Green Lantern and I'm sure at some point I will muster up the courage to. He's one of my favorite DC characters, a truly iconic figure, and I wish he had been done justice. If you had just ended your post with the first sentence I would have rolled my eyes and shrugged and moved on. But if you're going to invoke the word "disingenuous," I guess I sort of have a problem. This:
is a clear, inarguably separate echelon from this:
Anyone who suggests anything other than that is being disingenuous. Everyone is entitled to personal preference and opinion and I have all the respect in the world for Aske voicing his minority opinion, but his opinion is just that. An objective analysis of these movies does not all all jive with what you're claiming there, Bob, and you didn't qualify it with anything about your personal preferences. So yeah. Shenanigans.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I don't remember much about her, tbh. I mean, she was the reanimated corpse of Gwen? And then Gwen was back or whatever?
Please stop. Or you will be stopped. Opinions are cool until you start speaking for other people.
MisterHero
Super Member
Oh Joss Whedon, you and your comic book humor
I thought these movies left you cold and disillusioned?
Good Job Bob
Member
Enough! All of you are beneath me. I am a god, you dull creature and I shall not be bullied...Please stop. Or you will be stopped. Opinions are cool until you start speaking for other people.
After seeing them in theater, watching them on Blu-ray at home I can mildly enjoy them for what they are.
I kinda want to watch GL now to know how wrong this is.
Hot Coldman
Banned
It's worse. That's all you need to know.
Blake Lively doesn't even work as eye candy given her nudes leaked out like 3 days before the film released
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Prediction time: Whenever the MTV movie awards are, Hulk vs. Loki will be nominated for Best Fight.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Many hilarious fights get nominated.
I think he's channeling the opposite of his avatar.
oh wait..
WordAssassin
Member
No, it was a clone of Peter. Unlike the 616 Carnage, Ultimate Carnage had nothing to do with Venom. He was a clone that killed people and drank their DNA to become more like Peter was. I think the last person he killed was Gwen, and later on in the series a company tried to bring her back or clone Pete again (starting Ultimate Clone Saga? It's been a long time) and they cloned Gwen but she had the Carnage DNA in her and would Hulk-out I to Carnage sometimes. I believe they were able to either split them into two separate beings eventually, or just cure her entirely. I have to read it again, USM is my favorite Marvel comic.
Well not really, it still had to do with Venom a bit. Just not as directly as in 616.
Thanks for taking the time to break down your thoughts about the film; the depth and detail you put into your post is sincerely appreciated. You've massively helped me to understand the different perspectives most people seem to share with regard to this film. I don't agree with your take on these various elements of the movie, but I finally feel like I can empathize with your position, and make sense of why others dislike the film so much. This is something that has been bothering me for ages, and I feel like I can finally put it to bed.
One of the things I really enjoyed about watching Green Lantern's behind-the-scenes featurettes on the Blu-ray was that I felt like I found the only other people in the world who felt as passionately about the movie as I did. Kind of mind-blowing to think these criticisms didn't come out in test screenings or during the production process, especially since they're universally shared both by long time GL fans and viewers totally new to the franchise. I wonder about all those people who saw the film before it was released, and how many of them were as surprised by the public reaction as I was.
I don't understand how it is possible for one person to be so fucking wrong so god damn consistently. Honestly, I don't even know why you're in this thread anymore other than to stir shit up. Your taste in movies is fucking awful if you thought Green Lantern was on the level of any of those Marvel movies.
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