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[jbug617]

Probably. I'm sure Joshua "Windows is like poison to me" Topolsky is genuinely hyped about the Surface.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/19/3097726/surface-microsoft-next-chapter

He is excited to see where this is going.

 

[Blackhead]

Norman Chan from tested.com Microsoft Surface is more than just an IPad competitor

why are people comparing the Surface PRO to the iPad?

even in the article, "for now, we'll shelve commenting on the RT..." Huh? Those are the competing devices.

The iPad is not a competitor to the Surface Pro. It's not in price or functionality. Nor is it supposed to be.

The kickstand/Type Cover combination of the Surface--arguably the two most buzzed-about features from yesterday's announcement--really call out the difference in Microsoft and Apple's approach to tablet computing, and maybe computing in general.

By putting the iPad along with the iPhone in the iOS family of devices, Apple is betting on computer-user interfaces evolving past the keyboard and mouse. Touch was the first big step, and voice (ie. Siri) is next. The continued "iOS-ification" of Mac OS points to this trend. You're likely never going to find a digital pen built into any Apple products, and it's possible that at some point Apple products will do away with physical keyboards completely.

Microsoft, on the other hand, knows that its bread and butter is in Windows--and that means the PC as we've come to know and use for the past 25 years. Windows 8 is an unprecedented move for Microsoft in that it actually embraces touch interfaces (and not half-asses it like with previous attempts), but it's not a complete paradigm shift in computer interaction.

.

 

[Windu]

I meant the concept in general. Even if the Surface Pro has a MSRP of $999, there is nothing stopping a device that fits the bill coming at a much cheaper rate. We've got current Windows 7 tablets at $500 easily. There's no reason why it has to be a $1000 starting point. What about the iPad in itself makes it impossible in theory to run OSX on it?

the storage for one. And i assume OSX applications would have to be recompiled etc.. to run on ARM.

 

[yogloo]

Wooooo. Awesome. This is windows 8 metro done right. Depending on the specs, I will get one surface pro on launch. This is the ideal tablet for me if specs and battery life supports it.
I'm pretty sure that pro will start at 999. RT is there to match ipad.

 

[Kogepan]

Does the keyboard detach so you can use it like a tablet?

The Intel "Letexo" reference design is convertible. Lenovo and MSI already have prototypes displayed.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/16/2951967/intel-hybrid-tablet-ultrabook-windows-8-prototype-IDF-2012

For simliar prices, I don't understand why you would want a worse keyboard, weaker CPU/GPU (clocks) and battery and smaller dispaly for a marginal reduction in weight.

 

[brotkasten]

The Intel "Letexo" reference design is convertible. Lenovo and MSI already have prototypes displayed.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/16/2951967/intel-hybrid-tablet-ultrabook-windows-8-prototype-IDF-2012

For simliar prices, I don't understand why you would want a worse keyboard, weaker CPU/GPU (clocks) and battery and smaller dispaly for a marginal reduction in weight.

Because it doesn't look like ass.

 

[JaggedSac]

The Intel "Letexo" reference design is convertible. Lenovo and MSI already have prototypes displayed.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/16/2951967/intel-hybrid-tablet-ultrabook-windows-8-prototype-IDF-2012

For simliar prices, I don't understand why you would want a worse keyboard, weaker CPU/GPU (clocks) and battery and smaller dispaly for a marginal reduction in weight.

Oh yeah man, I know there are other hybrids out there. Was merely giving a reason why someone would want a hybrid over that ultrabook that was linked to.

 

[Kogepan]

Because it doesn't look like ass.

Nice retort.

 

[DataStream]

Well, they did buy

Spoiler

some ad space on

the Verge.

Also, lets not forget that the positive editorial on the Verge is coming from the man, who said that using Windows would be like poison to him. And you guys are not suspicious?

He has said very positive things about Win8 in the past but has always doubted the combination of desktop and touch. The main thing he alludes to in that latest article is he's starting to see how that may actually make sense and be executed properly.

I don't really think that a bunch of people quit AOL because of their shady linkbating and advertorial content only to succumb to the same BS.

 

[Marty Chinn]

the storage for one. And i assume OSX applications would have to be recompiled etc.. to run on ARM.

I would assume Apple would optimize OSX just like Microsoft has. Windows 8 takes something like 6GB of storage. Tight for maybe a 16gig flash, but 32 isn't unreasonable. So I don't think storage really is a limiting factor.

The compiling to run on ARM is a good point though, but you would think Apple would have looked at chips that wouldn't have caused that to be an issue. Also granted Intel probably wasn't in a position then to offer such a chip, but I would hope/think Apple would have worked with Intel to get it done if that's what they wanted to do.

So true, there are a lot of factors that would have to get worked out, but if they aimed for it in the original iPad, these factors would have been non factors. What I'm saying is I don't think suddenly offering both automatically drives the price point to $999.

 

[brotkasten]

Nice retort.

Thanks, it took me two minutes to come up with that.

He has said very positive things about Win8 in the past but has always doubted the combination of desktop and touch. The main thing he alludes to in that latest article is he's starting to see how that may actually make sense and be executed properly.

I don't really think that a bunch of people quit AOL because of their shady linkbating and advertorial content only to succumb to the same BS.

I was kidding. Mostly.

You have to admit though, the huge IE ad on the front page is a bit weird, considering the timing.

 

[coldfoot]

This is so not true. The registry hate is just so overblown at this point that it doesn't match reality. More often than not using registry cleaners will fuck up your system and not fix anything. I honestly couldn't even tell you the last time myself or someone I know has had an issue which has the root cause being the registry (unless you run a registry cleaner which can accidently delete regkeys that are actually needed, but in that case you're just creating the "registry problem" yourself).

I do not mess with my registry unless I have to, but it's a big reason why uninstalling programs isn't easy or clean with Windows. Windows simply has the worst method of installing software ever, it's so much behind Apple, who are so much behind Linux. Apt should be the default method of installing software, always.

That's also why all windows installations, including 7, need a refresh once in a while. With XP, this was every 3-6 months, with 7, it's 2 years.

I like winRT and metro because it does away with all the legacy windows garbage, which is frankly needed only by 10% of people who use computers.

 

[Argyle]

I don't think he does. If the Pro model costs just as much as an ultrabook, with worse battery life...whats the point? And its significantly heavier than the current ipad, not even counting the cover/keyboard.

Also, the whats the attraction for the low end model? Its just another tegra3 slab hardware wise. Everyone is just that excited for the fancy finish and the kickstand?

Why do you think that it is going to have worse battery life than an ultrabook? The battery in there is BIGGER (42W-h vs 35 W-h) than the one in the Macbook Air 11"...

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I'm interested, but it looks thick as hell

 

[Gary Whitta]

I'm interested, but it looks thick as hell

May I just say, I love that we live in an age in which this device could be considered thick. By anyone.

 

[Kogepan]

Oh yeah man, I know there are other hybrids out there. Was merely giving a reason why someone would want a hybrid over that ultrabook that was linked to.

Well, i wouldn't pay the extra $$ for a convertible and the Acer S7 is supposedly going to be cheap(ish).

I just don't see the surface pro being innovative at all. Just a downclocked ultrabook with a crappy detachable keyboard but a reduction in overall size. And theres no way a multi-touch keyboard are going to be comfortable for long term use.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

May I just say, I love that we live in an age in which this device could be considered thick. By anyone.

Fair enough, but it does look like my iPad 3's ugly, fat cousin.

 

[JaggedSac]

Well, i wouldn't pay the extra $$ for a convertible and the Acer S7 is supposedly going to be cheap(ish).

I just don't see the surface pro being innovative at all. Just a downclocked ultrabook with a crappy detachable keyboard but a reduction in overall size. And theres no way a multi-touch keyboard are going to be comfortable for long term use.

Yeah, I can definitely see that. I think the keyboard is neat, but untested in the wild, so it could be scat. But it is also key to the whole device. A tablet with a simple cover that can also be used as a keyboard with a little stand. Plus it looks pretty nice and looks like it has quality parts to it. Hopefully other OEMs match it in terms of design. Has Visio shown any tablets or hybrids yet?

 

[Windu]

I'm interested, but it looks thick as hell

its thinner than the ipad 3

 

[user_nat]

Fair enough, but it does look like my iPad 3's ugly, fat cousin.

It's .1mm thinner than the iPad 3 for the comparable RT model (16 grams heavier).

Pro is thicker by about 4mm.

 

[Betta Lines]

its thinner than the ipad 3

The interesting one is thicker than the iPad 1.

 

[Windu]

The interesting one is thicker than the iPad 1.

the interesting one is an intel device, of course its thicker.

 

[NZer]

Why does the ARM Surface (running RT) even let you exit metro for the desktop if most apps won't run? If it didn't, it would be much easier to explain to customers the difference between it and the Pro.

 

[Windu]

Why does the ARM Surface (running RT) even let you exit metro for the desktop if most apps won't run? If it didn't, it would be much easier to explain to customers the difference between it and the Pro.

office plus utilities that haven't moved to Metro yet.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

So the ARM one is thinner and the x86 is thicker? Shiiiiiiiiit.

 

[Gary Whitta]

The interesting one is thicker than the iPad 1.

Also vastly more capable. I guess that doesn't matter on the internet where the concept of a trade-off doesn't exist. WE WANT IT ALL!

 

[NZer]

office plus utilities that haven't moved to Metro yet.

I thought they were giving a free copy of RT-compatible Office for metro with the Surface?

 

[Windu]

I thought they were giving a free copy of RT-compatible Office for metro with the Surface?

Yeah Office for RT uses the Desktop.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

I thought they were giving a free copy of RT-compatible Office for metro with the Surface?

Its desktop versions. As far as I know they haven't announced metro versions of office yet.

 

[NZer]

Ah OK, my mistake. But with the ARM Surface launching months before the Pro, I hope it doesn't have a terrible launch and confuse customers, in such a way that it jeopardises the future of the Pro (which is the much more desirable product).

 

[Vanillalite]

office plus utilities that haven't moved to Metro yet.

This is more of a MS fuck up IMO. They've known the time frame. Adding in a desktop mode for the arm version just fucks with things when trying to sell it to people. MS just should have moved more shit to Metro.

It's the only area I really think MS have botched things Win 8/RT Wise. They should have had everything that is baseline from MS ready for Metro from the get go that aren't legacy apps or business/power user stuff. No excuses. Just get it done.

I'll get shit for thinking this though.

 

[rezuth]

I would assume Apple would optimize OSX just like Microsoft has. Windows 8 takes something like 6GB of storage. Tight for maybe a 16gig flash, but 32 isn't unreasonable. So I don't think storage really is a limiting factor.

The compiling to run on ARM is a good point though, but you would think Apple would have looked at chips that wouldn't have caused that to be an issue. Also granted Intel probably wasn't in a position then to offer such a chip, but I would hope/think Apple would have worked with Intel to get it done if that's what they wanted to do.

So true, there are a lot of factors that would have to get worked out, but if they aimed for it in the original iPad, these factors would have been non factors. What I'm saying is I don't think suddenly offering both automatically drives the price point to $999.

They did, it's called iOS

its thinner than the ipad 3

Interestingly enough the curves that Apple use on their products always make them appear thinner than they really are though.

 

[JaggedSac]

This is more of a MS fuck up IMO. They've known the time frame. Adding in a desktop mode for the arm version just fucks with things when trying to sell it to people. MS just should have moved more shit to Metro.

It's the only area I really think MS have botched things Win 8/RT Wise. They should have had everything that is baseline from MS ready for Metro from the get go that aren't legacy apps or business/power user stuff. No excuses. Just get it done.

I'll get shit for thinking this though.

Yep, they dropped the ball on this one. Crazy thing is that it is even going to be on iOS first.

 

[mavs]

This is more of a MS fuck up IMO. They've known the time frame. Adding in a desktop mode for the arm version just fucks with things when trying to sell it to people. MS just should have moved more shit to Metro.

It's the only area I really think MS have botched things Win 8/RT Wise. They should have had everything that is baseline from MS ready for Metro from the get go that aren't legacy apps or business/power user stuff. No excuses. Just get it done.

I'll get shit for thinking this though.

Seems like the whole point of the thing is to have the same Office as people are currently using on Windows. Not launch a whole new version of Office on top of everything and expect that to be what people upgrade to going forward.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

This is more of a MS fuck up IMO. They've known the time frame. Adding in a desktop mode for the arm version just fucks with things when trying to sell it to people. MS just should have moved more shit to Metro.

It's the only area I really think MS have botched things Win 8/RT Wise. They should have had everything that is baseline from MS ready for Metro from the get go that aren't legacy apps or business/power user stuff. No excuses. Just get it done.

I'll get shit for thinking this though.

No, I agree. I'd have a much better opinion of Windows RT if it was only Metro. But Microsoft had to cave to the Office team's slow development speed and now the OS is tainted. Hopefully Windows 9 fixes it, and hopefully by then the RT app catalogue will have built up (since it's the only way to get the same app on both OS's.)

Actually, now I'm hyped for Windows 9. Should be awesome.

 

[Korey]

I'm interested, but it looks thick as hell

I think it looks thick in those renders because the tablet is so small and the camera is close.

 

[rozay]

This is more of a MS fuck up IMO. They've known the time frame. Adding in a desktop mode for the arm version just fucks with things when trying to sell it to people. MS just should have moved more shit to Metro.

It's the only area I really think MS have botched things Win 8/RT Wise. They should have had everything that is baseline from MS ready for Metro from the get go that aren't legacy apps or business/power user stuff. No excuses. Just get it done.

I'll get shit for thinking this though.

Trust me, you're far from the only one who feels this way.

If they were removing the ability to run desktop apps on RT, I feel they should've gone the full mile and removed the desktop, and a file manager/relevant settings/ task manager that are desktop only should have been accessible from metro. The office team fucked up in that respect.

 

[saltywalrus]

I would assume Apple would optimize OSX just like Microsoft has. Windows 8 takes something like 6GB of storage. Tight for maybe a 16gig flash, but 32 isn't unreasonable. So I don't think storage really is a limiting factor.

The compiling to run on ARM is a good point though, but you would think Apple would have looked at chips that wouldn't have caused that to be an issue. Also granted Intel probably wasn't in a position then to offer such a chip, but I would hope/think Apple would have worked with Intel to get it done if that's what they wanted to do.

So true, there are a lot of factors that would have to get worked out, but if they aimed for it in the original iPad, these factors would have been non factors. What I'm saying is I don't think suddenly offering both automatically drives the price point to $999.

I think I read in Steve Job's biography that Steve wanted to use Intel chips in iPhone, but Intel couldn't produce a a low power/ low heat chip. It's been 5 years and Intel just recently came out with a chip competitive with ARM chips.

By the time iPad came out, iPhone was already more popular than Macs, and the iPhone already had a large catalogue of touch optimized apps. Compatibility with iPhone was more important than compatibility with Mac apps.

 

[Betta Lines]

Also vastly more capable. I guess that doesn't matter on the internet where the concept of a trade-off doesn't exist. WE WANT IT ALL!

No more capable than a similarly priced laptop, aside from the stylus support. A point that I will repeat until I'm blue dabadeedabedah (in the face).

Also, this appears to be coming out quite close to the potential iPad 4 launch. So I'd have to wait for that before making my mind up.

 

[Spasm]

Fair enough, but it does look like my iPad 3's ugly, fat cousin.

Yeah. I mean, lookit all those hideous expansion ports.

 

[Raistlin]

Also shorter battery life

You know this how? Rumor has it it's using Wayne, which is 22nm

a loud fan (the RT has a fan like the pro version?)

There's no indication it has one, and why would it? It's ARM. Even if it did though, why would it have to be a 'loud' fan?

worse display (is it OLED at least?)

no such thing as OLED at this size currently

less applications

no shit

more weight

lol seriously? It's 676 vs 652 grams

Did i miss anything?

moar salt

Huh? You can jot down notes just fine in the iPad and it's backed up into the cloud as well, either using the built in app with iCloud or OneNote with SkyDrive.

jotting involves writing

Yeah, clearly apps don't need to run in the background at all.

Way to dance around his point

Any specs on the most expensive 64 bit version? If it was a wacom digitizer plus pen AND great GFX card I'll buy it over a macbook for work

It's gonna have integrated GFX (HD 4000 or a derivitive since it's technically a new generation Ivy Bridge of some sort).

It's meant to compete with the MacBook Air 11", not a MacBook. That said, I'd expect some larger size hybrids soon enough as well

The fact that tobor has firmly planted himself in this thread is reason enough for me to think this product is the first real contender to the iPad.

bwahahahahaha

So help me understand this, as I only use Windows now at work and pretty much despise it wholesale...but if the Pro model is simply running full Win 8, does that not mean it will require virus protection and whatnot, like a regular PC?

Because if so, that is probably one of the most laughably idiotic things I've ever heard, and completely misses the entire point of why Apple has become the company it has in the past 5 years.

Am I incorrect in thinking this?

Yes, you're incorrect.

Cons for RT:
32GB will be gone in like 2 months, I just tend to download lots of games

RT is available in 32GB and 64GB (Pro is 64GB and 128GB). Plus it has external I/O.

Isn't the reason the Pro (ie x86) surface launching after the RT version to keep OEM's (of which Dell etc has a big share) happy?

Could be part of it, but the long pole is they're waiting on a new rev of Ivy Bridge

Wait the pro has a fan?! On a tablet???? Jesus jusr scrap this whole project now because that alone will make it look low rent next to an ipad

OMG ... an Ultrabook has a fan? SCRAP IT NOW

I very much suspect that 32GB RT model will come in well under the cheapest iPad. That will be Microsofts marketing strategy, or a large part of it. Just like they did with the 360, there will be a SKU that will be the cheapest in the bunch, and that model will carry the brand in sales.

edit. Has anyone had any discussions today about Apollo and Windows Phone 8 and how all of this will pan out? Isn't Apollo set to release this August/September? I could see myself in a world where my home PC is Win 8, my work machine is a Win 8 Pro Surface and my phone is a WP8, if (and only if) WP8 had functionality to seemlessly tie into the other OS's with ease, meaning I can jump from working in files/apps on any of these devices as a turn key type feature that is built right into the OS layer.

Anyone think thats a possibility?

The Windows Phone Summit is tomorrow ... so we should get a lot more info on Apollo.

 

[numble]

Why do you like so much white space.

 

[MercuryLS]

This is more of a MS fuck up IMO. They've known the time frame. Adding in a desktop mode for the arm version just fucks with things when trying to sell it to people. MS just should have moved more shit to Metro.

It's the only area I really think MS have botched things Win 8/RT Wise. They should have had everything that is baseline from MS ready for Metro from the get go that aren't legacy apps or business/power user stuff. No excuses. Just get it done.

I'll get shit for thinking this though.

1000% agreed. MS should have had the balls to just go with Metro on the RT Tablets. Having a desktop there is just stupid stupid stupid. There's the Pro model for that shit. They need to push a cohesive message with the RT model, getting kicked back to the regular desktop when you launch Office is so goddamn stupid on an ARM tablet. It's more of a hinderance than anything. So Office for Metro isn't ready yet? Fucking wait until it is before putting it on the tablet, the world can wait. Imagine if Apple released Mac iWork for the iPad that kicked you to an OSX desktop because the iOS version of iWork wasn't ready yet. Do you think they wouldn't get crucified for that? This is the only major flaw that I've seen with the RT tablet OS, it could poison the whole well.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Yep, they dropped the ball on this one. Crazy thing is that it is even going to be on iOS first.

And Android!

 

[NZer]

1000% agreed. MS should have had the balls to just go with Metro on the RT Tablets. Having a desktop there is just stupid stupid stupid. There's the Pro model for that shit. They need to push a cohesive message with the RT model, getting kicked back to the regular desktop when you launch Office is so goddamn stupid on an ARM tablet. It's more of a hinderance than anything. So Office for Metro isn't ready yet? Fucking wait until it is before putting it on the tablet, the world can wait. Imagine if Apple released Mac iWork for the iPad that kicked you to an OSX desktop because the iOS version of iWork wasn't ready yet. Do you think they wouldn't get crucified for that? This is the only major flaw that I've seen with the RT tablet OS, it could poison the whole well.

Trust me, you're far from the only one who feels this way.

If they were removing the ability to run desktop apps on RT, I feel they should've gone the full mile and removed the desktop, and a file manager/relevant settings/ task manager that are desktop only should have been accessible from metro. The office team fucked up in that respect.

I concur wholeheartedly.

 

[Complex Shadow]

Why do you like so much white space.

it becomes dark space on neogaf gold(dark).

 

[Gareth Bale]

I think it looks thick in those renders because the tablet is so small and the camera is close.

I thought it look thick when they were holding it up on stage though.

 

[DopeyFish]

The idea of having arm desktop is actually super intriguing, as long as they expose the compilers for the arm version of windows, companies can update their stuff to make winRT into a crazy beast

But... As far as I know, they are only allowing arm apps through metro which is kinda bleh

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Raistlin's letting his crazy show again, time to bail out.

 

[Tobor]

bwahahahahaha

As I said yesterday, I was just as interested in the Motorola Xoom, Blackberry Playbook, HP Touchpad, and Kindle Fire threads. I had a lot of fun in the various Kin threads, come to think of it.

Raistlin's letting his crazy show again, time to bail out.

True.