Support NeoGAF

[wsippel]

Nintendo has abandoned the 1T-SRAM technology by MoSys for Wii U though, so you could wonder what kind of memory they have chosen this time. Is it something as conservative as DDR3 or something exotic like TTRAM by Renesas (that is only an example, don't expecting something like it)? I don't doubt Nintendo will incorporate a good design when it comes to memory, but to what degree?

The eDRAM is almost certainly not just a framebuffer, but MEM1 - a direct replacement for the 1T-SRAM. So you end up with ~32MB eDRAM (MEM1) and up to 2GB conventional memory (MEM2).

 

[RadarScope1]

Solid piece. Crayons are the new refrigerator.

 

[Fess]

Kameo and PDZ were damn amazing in 2005. Some aspects (notably parallax mapping) are still unsurpassed on consoles IMO.

Yup Kameo in particular still looks quite amazing in some areas, what has happened to Rare is like one of the worst things in gaming history imo, it's such a waste of pure talent, Rare could've easily become Microsofts's Naughty Dog if they had kept them away from Kinect.

 

[cyberheater]

Yup Kameo in particular still looks quite amazing in some areas, what has happened to Rare is like one of the worst things in gaming history imo, it's such a waste of pure talent, Rare could've easily become Microsofts's Naughty Dog if they had kept them away from Kinect.

I really have to agree with this.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Yup Kameo in particular still looks quite amazing in some areas, what has happened to Rare is like one of the worst things in gaming history imo, it's such a waste of pure talent, Rare could've easily become Microsofts's Naughty Dog if they had kept them away from Kinect.

Man There are several things that depress me in general about the first party Msoft has. Number 1 is how lame Molyneux vision has ended up. I remember seeing the demo reel for Fable 2 at E3 and thinking finally this dude has a machine that can back-up the promises.

Number 2 is Rare. I played Kameo 2 years after it came out and it was still very impressive. It also had that classic Rare feeling.

 

[onipex]

Seems like that is what they are saying to me.

The WiiU is going to end up in the same position the Wii is now, whether it will have the sales the Wii does is another matter.

The Wii was more powerful than last gen but not up to par with PS3/360, and now they have done the same again with the WiiU. it is going to be generally more powerful than the 360/PS3 but just like the Wii was left behind the WiiU will also be ignored by the majority of 3rd parties whose games are aimed a more core audience willing to pick up the titles they put out on more powerful platforms.

The big difference between then and now is that most of the industry didn't know if Nintendo was releasing a new console or what it was. In the mean time they were investing in HD development so when Nintendo released a SD console no one wanted to invest the resources in it. Of course we see what the home console market is like now without the Wii driving it.

This time around everyone knows what is coming from Nintendo is doing , but no one knows how successful it will be. There is already better third party investment in the Wii U than the Wii had imo. Third parties can get their resources ready to support the Wii U now since it will be the first new console to launch. If they wait too long they miss the easy money that launch window games can sometimes make and they also risk getting left behind if the console is successful.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I really have to agree with this.

Uhh, almost all their pre-kinect 360 games all sold somewhat poorly, didn't they? I remember seeing people say they had already lost all semblence of former greatness due to PDZ and Nuts n' Bolts, etc. I have no love for Kinect but let's not rewrite history in order to blame it for the fall of Rare.

For the record, I thought Kameo, Nuts n Bolts, etc. were a lot of fun, but they were not a success from either a business or GAF-love standpoint.

 

[marc^o^]

Not surprising but not really a big deal imo either.

I really feel this generation of consoles will see Nintendo firmly in 3rd place, which is ironic since I imagine I will play the Wii-U far more than I have my Wii.

As opposed to your feeling, I envision a dozen reasons why Nintendo is likely to sell the most again, including its headstart, the resurgence of PC gaming, diminishing returns as far as indie and 2D games are concerned, its party game asymmetric design focus, its originality and complementarity with monolitic competitive offerings, its family tablet appeal, etc. etc.

 

[blu]

The next series (6) for PowerVR used in iPads and Vita will support DirectX 11.1

No they won't.

 

[Gahiggidy]

The SNES was bottlenecked by a slow CPU. Though this was somewhat rectified by including various coprocessors in the cartridges, like the DSP chips, SA1, Super FX chip and such.

The N64 was Bottlenecked by various RAM limitations, as far as I know.

3DS CPU was underclocked, as some has mentioned. In order to keep battery life up.

That's three. But maybe there's others I am forgetting too?

I'm talking majorly bottlenecked. Enough to hold the machine back by a generation.

The way the article describes it, the Wii U is a 2005 CPU paired up with a 2011 GPU.

 

[cyberheater]

Uhh, almost all their pre-kinect 360 games all sold somewhat poorly, didn't they? I remember seeing people say they had already lost all semblence of former greatness due to PDZ and Nuts n' Bolts, etc. I have no love for Kinect but let's not rewrite history in order to blame it for the fall of Rare.

For the record, I thought Kameo, Nuts n Bolts, etc. were a lot of fun, but they were not a success from either a business or GAF-love standpoint.

I really like Kameo and PDZ but Nuts n Bolts killed it for me. The trailers made it look like we were finally going to get a proper Banjo-Kazooie sequel. Back to the glory days of fantastic platforming across an amazing 3D world. And we ended vehicle upgrade game.

What went wrong. Why did they do that.

 

[cyberheater]

the Wii U is a 2005 CPU paired up with a weak 2011 GPU.

Compared to modern PC graphics cards. I don't think this is even middle of the road performance territory. I think it's going to be fairly low end.

 

[Gahiggidy]

Compared to modern PC graphics cards. I don't think this is even middle of the road performance territory. I think it's going to be fairly low end.

Do you consider the Xbox 360 to be a 2005 CPU?

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

As opposed to your feeling, I envision a dozen reasons why Nintendo is likely to sell the most again, including its headstart, the resurgence of PC gaming, diminishing returns as far as indie and 2D games are concerned, its party game asymmetric design focus, its originality and complementarity with monolitic competitive offerings, its family tablet appeal, etc. etc.

Muwahaha there can only be one victor marc! We shall see....WE SHALL SEE!

 

[crisdecuba]

Here's something I don't understand. Maybe someone with an understanding of GPUs / DirectX and stuff can help me.

Is it that crazy to think that for PS4 and 360 games, that WiiU ports would be the equivalent of running a PC on the lower settings? Is this too simplistic a way to think about things?

 

[marc^o^]

Muwahaha there can only be one victor marc! We shall see....WE SHALL SEE!

;-)

 

[blu]

By the way, does anyone know the current maximum per-chip bandwidth for DDR3?

2.4Gbps/pin (or was it 2.6) for samsung's gDDR3.

 

[bart64]

As opposed to your feeling, I envision a dozen reasons why Nintendo is likely to sell the most again, including its headstart, the resurgence of PC gaming, diminishing returns as far as indie and 2D games are concerned, its party game asymmetric design focus, its originality and complementarity with monolitic competitive offerings, its family tablet appeal, etc. etc.

Nice summary of benefits, I think you're better at marketing than most Nintendo staff. What's the monolitic competitive offerings point? Couldn't work that out.

 

[aegies]

Here's something I don't understand. Maybe someone with an understanding of GPUs / DirectX and stuff can help me.

Is it that crazy to think that for PS4 and 360 games, that WiiU ports would be the equivalent of running a PC on the lower settings? Is this too simplistic a way to think about things?

Developers have been waiting for the 720/PS4 generation to take advantage of hardware that's been around for a couple of years now. The continued presence of the 360/PS3 has forced PC devs into developing with the consoles in mind, and adding non-experience related improvements to PC versions - better textures, more refined shaders, etc. Once there's new console hardware out there, then you'll see developers use the power available to them on PC in new, more expansive ways, because there are new consoles out there that can do it too, with what they feel is a more reliable purchasing base.

 

[DCKing]

The way the article describes it, the Wii U is a 2005 CPU paired up with a 2011 GPU.

Not to pick on you or anything, but it really annoys me how some people seem to think "Nintendo CPU is slow => it must be made in 2005 or something". The Wii U CPU can be a 2012 design, using all sorts of nifty cutting edge IBM POWER8 techniques, and still be made in such a way that it is outperformed by the 360 CPU. Just because it's slow doesn't mean it's old. It's not as if Nintendo goes back into the IBM archives to dig up something that is deliberately outdated. If the Wii U CPU is slow it'll be slow in exactly the way Nintendo and IBM want it to be slow. Because of cost and power reasons, not because it's old.

 

[cyberheater]

Do you consider the Xbox 360 to be a 2005 CPU?

It's an example of a custom IBM chip based on the Power PC technology with close collaboration with microsoft.
Development would have started around 2003 for that product.

 

[TouchMyBox]

if the xbox 3 is only 6-8 times more powerful than the xbox 360, that would be pretty disappointing.

 

[cyberheater]

Not to pick on you or anything, but it really annoys me how some people seem to think "Nintendo CPU is slow => it must be made in 2005 or something". The Wii U CPU can be a 2012 design, using all sorts of nifty cutting edge IBM POWER8 techniques, and still be made in such a way that it is outperformed by the 360 CPU. Just because it's slow doesn't mean it's old. It's not as if Nintendo goes back into the IBM archives to dig up something that is deliberately outdated. If the Wii U CPU is slow it'll be slow in exactly the way Nintendo and IBM want it to be slow. Because of cost and power reasons, not because it's old.

Clearly Nintendo are using a state of the art design to minimize heat and power requirements. Slow or not.

 

[Durante]

Here's something I don't understand. Maybe someone with an understanding of GPUs / DirectX and stuff can help me.

Is it that crazy to think that for PS4 and 360 games, that WiiU ports would be the equivalent of running a PC on the lower settings? Is this too simplistic a way to think about things?

The interesting thing is that this would be more likely with a relatively weak GPU rather than a weak CPU. It's comparatively simple to scale graphics (rendering, texture and shadow resolution, effects, even geometric detail), but harder to scale CPU usage, since it's often more closely related to gameplay.

2.4Gbps/pin (or was it 2.6) for samsung's gDDR3.

Thanks.

 

[blu]

Yet the new Ipad will appearantly tie with the WiiU with passive cooling according to this.

This article, while pretty much solidifying what most speculations provided allready, goes to quite some conclusions that are just outlandish.

Well, it's 'wow, apple' vs 'lol, nintendo', what do you expect?

 

[theBishop]

if the xbox 3 is only 6-8 times more powerful than the xbox 360, that would be pretty disappointing.

That's the traditional ratio developers have always talked about. Of course "times more powerful" is a poorly defined metric for a computer with many different components, but it's the common figure.

 

[KageMaru]

just like this gen.

Just like every gen really.

Share your info plz.

Common sense.

I'm surprised at that as well considering it's not that impressive to begin with. I don't find the Star Wars demo much more impressive than Uncharted 3.

I wish I could see what you're seeing.

 

[disap.ed]

if the xbox 3 is only 6-8 times more powerful than the xbox 360, that would be pretty disappointing.

 

[Father_Brain]

The interesting thing is that this would be more likely with a relatively weak GPU rather than a weak CPU. It's comparatively simple to scale graphics (rendering, texture and shadow resolution, effects, even geometric detail), but harder to scale CPU usage, since it's often more closely related to gameplay.

For what it's worth:

Nintendo has gone through some effort to offset the load on the CPU. Many of those efforts won't be evident in the first or second generation titles.

 

[Fess]

Uhh, almost all their pre-kinect 360 games all sold somewhat poorly, didn't they? I remember seeing people say they had already lost all semblence of former greatness due to PDZ and Nuts n' Bolts, etc. I have no love for Kinect but let's not rewrite history in order to blame it for the fall of Rare.

For the record, I thought Kameo, Nuts n Bolts, etc. were a lot of fun, but they were not a success from either a business or GAF-love standpoint.

I don't know about sales but do a search on Kameo on this board and you'll find that there were definitely some GAF-love going on. Same for Viva Pinata (which is another 360 favorite of mine). Rare always had a special playful charm, artistic style, and humour in their games that some may hate but quite a few seem to really really like.

 

[I Stalk Alone]

Clearly Nintendo are using a state of the art design to minimize heat and power requirements. Slow or not.

Still, it was pretty obvious to anyone that even threw a cursory glance at the case design.

The Radeon HD 6830M which is close to 920GFLOPS is 39w 40nm and comes in a laptop with a volume around that of the Wii U. Some of these models have a 18.4 inch monitor as well as a keyboard and a HDD and touch pad speakers and webcam. These laptops will be close to two years old by the time Wii U is out. I am sure theWiiU will be able to fit 100watts TDP in that thing and still keep it cool enough.

You can put in a 39w GPU at 920GFLOPS (6830M class with hd 7000 features) and maybe die shrink it to 32nm to make it around 30w. You can add 20w 32nm IBM OoO CPU at 2.5-2.8GHz (on paper might look slower than xenon) max. The cpu can be something along the lines of a overclocked PowerPC 476 based CC2000 but more customised for nintendo of course. You can probably have WiiU at 60 watts total including blue laser drive (wii was 17 watts total with DVD drive running), I/O, ram, dsp, wireless and storage. you can probably get away with using a 100 watt power brick.

 

[canvee]

As I said before this low power low heat crap needs to go. Considering how much japan bought Wii why is nintendo building a system around a group of people who bought the system the least. Cpus and Gpus aren't power guzzlers like they use to be but that box size is really cutting in to things if this is true.

Totally agree. Japan should not be the focus, let 3ds dominate that market.

 

[StevieP]

Here's something I don't understand. Maybe someone with an understanding of GPUs / DirectX and stuff can help me.

Is it that crazy to think that for PS4 and 360 games, that WiiU ports would be the equivalent of running a PC on the lower settings? Is this too simplistic a way to think about things?

Nope. That's about right. Low to high (where PC is Ultra) is a very simplified way to think about it.

Well, it's 'wow, apple' vs 'lol, nintendo', what do you expect?

I'd expect that developers would be smart enough to know that Rogue doesn't even touch the 360's GPU in raw power. I'd expect them to know what the laws of physics are about.

Don't get me wrong - Rogue is *extremely* impressive as a mobile GPU. But it is a mobile GPU. There are constraints that go along with that, and a console with a much higher TDP is still going to win out against a 3w tablet.

Am I asking for too much, gaming media?

 

[Glorified G]

Exact same with the Wii. Excpet having a less capable gpu than the xbox, Wii U has a less capable cpu than the 360.

I don't think anyone should be surprised that they took the exact same approach as the Wii.

 

[Gahiggidy]

.










<------- I'm updating my avatar in response to this article. (It has got me bummed.)

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I think we all expect Zelda and Metroid to look great, but what about the other franchises?

When I saw Mario, Pikman, and that funland or whatever all I thought was "Wii in HD".

It seems like they are used to low budget games.

I'm going to welcome every game they pump out in HD with open arms, because Nintendo in HD is Nintendo in HD, but are we going to see a Mario or Donkey Kong that really pushes their system? They will be spending so much more money on something that will probably sale the same.

 

[Glorified G]

.










<------- I'm updating my avatar in response to this article. (It has got me bummed.)

Looks like you're going through the 5 stages of grief. Now you're at stage 4, depression.

Acceptance is right around the corner.

 

[blu]

I'd expect that developers would be smart enough to know that Rogue doesn't even touch the 360's GPU in raw power. I'd expect them to know what the laws of physics are about.

'Physics, physics.. Wait, didn't we have some middleware for that?'

 

[marc^o^]

Nice summary of benefits, I think you're better at marketing than most Nintendo staff. What's the monolitic competitive offerings point? Couldn't work that out.

Thanks! I just meant PC, PS4 and x720 will probably offer a similar focus on cinematic experiences, and rather similar ways to play games, as opposed to a full dual screen approach. Wii U opens new creative fields, which should bring new, exclusive concepts and content.

 

[Orca]

Not to pick on you or anything, but it really annoys me how some people seem to think "Nintendo CPU is slow => it must be made in 2005 or something". The Wii U CPU can be a 2012 design, using all sorts of nifty cutting edge IBM POWER8 techniques, and still be made in such a way that it is outperformed by the 360 CPU. Just because it's slow doesn't mean it's old. It's not as if Nintendo goes back into the IBM archives to dig up something that is deliberately outdated. If the Wii U CPU is slow it'll be slow in exactly the way Nintendo and IBM want it to be slow. Because of cost and power reasons, not because it's old.

Exactly, it's more likely to be a modern design that's underclocked.

Not that that makes it a good thing, mind you.

 

[SilentProtagonist]

Could it be possible that the developers just don't understand how the CPU works yet? At least the ones who are talking?

What don't they understand about two Wii's duck taped together?

 

[I Stalk Alone]

Totally agree. Japan should not be the focus, let 3ds dominate that market.

With the way the Yen is performing internationally, Japan should be the focus for the next few years as profit margins are taking a dive globally due to the overly strong yen. it has been like this for a couple of years and it is hurting many global japanese companies who's focus is on export.

If Nintendo can really grab the Japanese market then Europe might bite even if the wii U will underperform compared to the wii in the American region this might stem the loss in profit margins from an overly strong yen.

 

[StevieP]

Exact same with the Wii. Excpet having a less capable gpu than the xbox, Wii U has a less capable cpu than the 360.

I don't think anyone should be surprised that they took the exact same approach as the Wii.

Why is it necessary to jump on conclusions?

Did you know that a lowly Pentium 4 (Northwoods at the time of the 360, I believe?) had a higher IPC than the PPE? There are certain things that the PPE was better designed for. General computing power was not one of them. Some chips are better at some things than others and clock speeds tell less of a story than architecture.

'Physics, physics.. Wait, didn't we have some middleware for that?'

We joke, but sometimes I wonder. Even DigitalFoundry (aren't they supposed to be smart?) have said similar.

 

[wonderdung]

This is totally tangential, but it bugs me so much. In comments someone calls them out for using anonymous sources. Tolito goes on to list a number of things they've been right about and claims that "good journalists protect their sources".

Yet the whole thing here is that the sources are people who have agreed to honor NDAs as a condition of their employment and are straight up breaking them. It's not like they're whistleblowing or trying to inform the world about stuff the world should know. It's not like they're unintentionally getting loose-lipped in a bar after work either. They're specifically breaking NDA over info for no other purpose than to give Kotaku a couple of hits.

The sources here have no integrity at all. They are intentionally breaking an agreement they made. And Kotaku's job is to "protect" them. And that makes me feel that the entire game journalism industry is just out to grab whatever info they can from whatever shady means they can. And that doesn't seem like good journalism. It seems like a rush for hits and ad-revenue. So I wish they'd get off their high horse.

 

[DCKing]

Exact same with the Wii. Excpet having a less capable gpu than the xbox, Wii U has a less capable cpu than the 360.

I don't think anyone should be surprised that they took the exact same approach as the Wii.

Two things for this:
a) It hasn't been stated that the CPU is less powerful than the 360. What seems to be given is that it runs slower on the exact same code. The 360 is a pretty specialized CPU so that shouldn't be a huge surprise. Furthermore, we already know that the Wii U uses dedicated sound hardware that offloads at least one CPU thread but that wasn't supported in middleware for a long time.
b) Why shouldn't it be a surprise? This time around, Nintendo could not update a previously used console architecture?

 

[cyberheater]

This is totally tangential, but it bugs me so much. In comments someone calls them out for using anonymous sources. Tolito goes on to list a number of things they've been right about and claims that "good journalists protect their sources".

Yet the whole thing here is that the sources are people who have agreed to honor NDAs as a condition of their employment and are straight up breaking them. It's not like they're whistleblowing or trying to inform the world about stuff the world should know. It's not like they're unintentionally getting loose-lipped in a bar after work either. They're specifically breaking NDA over info for no other purpose than to give Kotaku a couple of hits.

The sources here have no integrity at all. They are intentionally breaking an agreement they made. And Kotaku's job is to "protect" them. And that makes me feel that the entire game journalism industry is just out to grab whatever info they can from whatever shady means they can. And that doesn't seem like good journalism. It seems like a rush for hits and ad-revenue. So I wish they'd get off their high horse.

Well. I don't understand the need for the secrecy. As soon as the WiiU hits the shelves. The tech guys will do a deep tear down and we'll know exactly what's in it.
Nintendo should just spill the beans.

 

[blu]

We joke, but sometimes I wonder. Even DigitalFoundry (aren't they supposed to be smart?) have said similar.

Me thinks you give this industry too much credit. Yes, there are some friggin brilliant people in there, but the average Joe Gamedev is an overworked, underpaid blue-collar who does not miss a chance for sniping a jab at 'the man'. So somebody somewhere let off some steam and felt better after comparing a wiiU to an ipad. Let'em be.

 

[StevieP]

Me thinks you give this industry too much credit. Yes, there are some friggin brilliant people in there, but the average Joe Gamedev is an overworked, underpaid blue-collar who does not miss a chance for sniping a jab at 'the man'. So somebody somewhere let off some steam and felt better after comparing a wiiU to an ipad. Let'em be.

It isn't just the Wii U... it's everything nowadays that's compared (and will "soon be surpassed by") the bloody iPad.

As I've said, the Rogue (and PowerVR in general) is extremely impressive as a piece of mobile tech... however all of nature still has to adhere to the laws of physics.

 

[MrCunningham]

The Cube by it's lunch box handle.

But.

That was one of its best features...

I'm talking majorly bottlenecked. Enough to hold the machine back by a generation.

The way the article describes it, the Wii U is a 2005 CPU paired up with a 2011 GPU.

Well, Nintendo already held back the Wii by a full generation. But I guess the Wii was wasn't exactly bottlenecked by anything. It was just running on low end hardware. Though I don't know what else to say about the Wii U, other than Nintendo being content with not having to compete with Sony and MS on the hardware front.

The eDRAM is almost certainly not just a framebuffer, but MEM1 - a direct replacement for the 1T-SRAM. So you end up with ~32MB eDRAM (MEM1) and up to 2GB conventional memory (MEM2).

By the way you describe it, that extra eDRAM was also put there to insure accurate backwards compatibility for Wii (and possibly GCN) games.Outside of being used as a frame buffer.

Here's something I don't understand. Maybe someone with an understanding of GPUs / DirectX and stuff can help me.

People seem to bring up DirectX a lot in these threads. But the only two consoles that have used DirectX up to this point has been the OG Xbox and 360. DirectX is a Microsoft API, it won't end up in Nintendo's console. Doubt we'll see DirectX in Sony's console either, unless Sony strikes a deal with MS. Though Nintendo's console is suppose to have some DirectX like features, with some sort of fixed shaders apparently?

 

[blu]

As I've said, the Rogue (and PowerVR in general) is extremely impressive as a piece of mobile tech... however all of nature still has to adhere to the laws of physics.

I hear things can get really wonky at quantum levels.