The senate cost about a billion with less than a quarter of the members.
But would you expect, we let them set their own budget.
PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control
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But would you expect, we let them set their own budget.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yet another reason why I'm conflicted on George W. Bush. Stuff like this doesn't diminish all of the shit he was directly or indirectly responsible for, but man, he did do some good stuff.
Now that he's not running for office, you're not obliged to make a discrete good vs. bad call about him.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Yeah, it makes honest appraisals of his presidency complex, at the very least. I'm trying to think of comparisons, but only Grant is popping in my head oddly. I also think Dick Cheney trolling like a motherfucker at the end and Bush not, helped, especially the way he transitioned to Obama.
RustyNails
Member
It's actually designed to put democrats in red states in trouble. People in those states hate Obama/Obamacare. What would a democrat do?
Sources on this?
The only connection ever put forward is the confidence story - that businesses don't hire because they're worried that the us will default, or something else bad happen.
Which is not really backed by facts, or common sense for that matter, at all.
Originally it was the bond vigilantes who were suppose to raise the rates and create a budget Armageddon, the confidence theory was only put forward after that didn't materialize.
An economics book?
Okay. I'm just wondering why I'm seeing commercials asking Obama to improve the economy by reigning in the debt. I know they're attack ads, but of they put that on TV it's gotta have some basis right?
Wait wait. So what's with Europe's austerity plans as a response to the economies over there? Dept causing the EU crisis?
Nope! Attack ads can say nearly anything they want, pretty much.
RustyNails
Member
Nope. You can have an ad that says Obama should improve the economy by eliminating leprechauns. Doesn't matter.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I would just vote for it, Obama will veto it regardless...if it somehow passed. I think the Dems can think strategically and not get too pissy over someone voting for repeal when it's meaningless if it helps the claim to be independent/win reelection and keep the seat D.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
The part where he gets booed for promising to eliminate "Obamacare".
http://colorlines.com/archives/2012...t_booed_at_naacp_over_obamacare_comments.html
I almost feel sorry for him.
RustyNails
Member
That's exactly what those 6 or 7 democrats did. Others didn't feel it was that much of a threat.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I give him credit for having the balls to do it. I mean this is like Obama speaking at the NRA convention, an audience that's not open minded and is totally hostile to the speaker.
Makes perfect sense to me.
MintLemonade
Banned
This is how I feel after reading some of the comments in this thread....
Guess who represents me in that insightful discussion....
...laughable.
Guess who represents me in that insightful discussion....
...laughable.
Those usually are designed around what can influence voters the most.
Also, they might actually believe that (I'm sure at least some of them are).
And how is that austerity working for them?
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Stopping or at least slowing the hemorrhaging. .
Can you back that assertion with any sort of data?
There's plenty of negative correlation -
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Well the Euro hasn't completely collapsed yet and riots don't seem to have overtaken Greece anymore, so that's some type of improvement.
That's not a real argument though.
You can't explain a mechanism and you can't show correlation.
If you apply that standard, you can say that anything that happened in Europe stopped the hemorrhaging.
Maybe Eurovision saved them.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Had anyone outside of Mississippi ever heard that Katrina destroyed virtually everything on the Mississippi gulf coast? Mississippi is one of the most reliably Republican states in the country. The governor at the time was not only Republican but a former chairman of the Republic National Committee.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Yes, it is
As opposed to the rock solid evidence an unsourced chart hosted on imgur?
Of course it's going to take awhile for people to adjust to their new economic reality, especially with the end of unsustainable entitlements and tax evasion. No one said it would be pretty.
The numbers are from here, knock yourself out.
Now correlation is not proof, but at least I can show a correlation and I can also explain a mechanism.
You still can't do either.
Can you at least explain why you believe that austerity works or that it stopped the hemorrhaging in Europe?
Obama ain't scared of no one.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...3A7C23469A7A&first=0&qpvt=obama+gop+lions+den
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
So neither of us have proof, fine, my background isn't on economics, its either law or foreign policy, or countries blowing up other countries/sub nation states stuff, so I concede you have a mechanism, but I also don't expect recovery to occur for a while, but as spending and debt is managed better, it will.
Its a expedient way to end the European Welfare state which in the end with demographic shifts and expectation of new and more benefits will kill Europe's economy.
Not the same. A liberal dem at an NRA con, it's the same as a Repub. appearing at the NAACP. Special interest groups very hostile to the other side vs some US version of Question Time.
empty vessel
Member
Consider it stimulus. If there's anything that should be well run, it's the House of Representatives, the best part of American government, anywhere.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Considering all the people working there at all levels, it is a sizable employment source of the public.
When you present an argument, the onus is on you.
Especially when you present an argument as counter-intuitive like that less money in people's hands can spur economic growth.
Oh, so it's not about "stopping or at least slowing the hemorrhaging".
It's about using an opportunity to advance unrelated political agenda.
That's fine (outside the fact the fact that I don't agree with that particular agenda) but let's stop pretending that it did Europe any good so far.
And just to save you time, yes, if you want to put forward the assertion that Europe welfare system is causing those troubles, you'll have to prove it too, or at the very least explain why you think that.
Good luck with that -
Dr. Pangloss
Member
Manos you're wrong. And stop cherry picking your states. If entitlements led to problems, then explain Sweden, which is not on the Euro, or just Germany which has a better system than America.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
They're in the withdrawal period or the addiction treatment, bottoming out. It will spur the need for people to create new revenue sources as they can't depend on handouts.
No, it is, it's simply dual purpose. It's cut unsustainable spending.
Not at all.
[quoteThat's fine (outside the fact the fact that I don't agree with that particular agenda) but let's stop pretending that it did Europe any good so far.[/quote]
It's the first part of the process.
I think the past year or so proved it nicely.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Sweden has 9 million people and tons of natural resources to work with and Germany just exploits Southern Europe.
LOL - "Sweden can do it, why can't we take care of 311M people!?"
Take California, kill about 3/4 of the population, with the same amount of resources. That's Sweden.
Manos, please read Paul Krugman's blog posts flagged as "wonkish". He has, for the last two years, debunked austerity as a means of economic growth. If Krugman's name makes you recoil in horror, check out Ezra Klein.
As for unsustainable spending, please explain why Spain had a lower government spending to GDP ratio than Germany prior to the economic collapse, but, is now on the verge of bankruptcy and are reversing austerity cuts.
As for unsustainable spending, please explain why Spain had a lower government spending to GDP ratio than Germany prior to the economic collapse, but, is now on the verge of bankruptcy and are reversing austerity cuts.
Well this is just kind of embarrassing.
This is too: Krugman on CNBC today.
Edit - beat...
This is too: Krugman on CNBC today.
So similar...
Edit - beat...
You still refuse to put a shred of evidence to your assertion, and still refuse to explain why you believe it.
If you want to discuss austerity, let's do it, but what's the point of stating and re-stating your unsupported position?
Yeah, I get it, you like austerity.
You think that if people knew just how awesome you thought it is they will be persuaded?
Why do you think that welfare is more difficult in bigger countries?
Common sense suggests the opposite - welfare is effectively an insurance system, and insurance is more effective the bigger your insured base.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Lol. Love this post.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It turns out all we needed to make PoliGAF interesting again was getting Manos back
empty vessel
Member
Who knew Kosmo supported debt relief for home owners? We do now!
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I did explain why I believed so.
Clarification
No not at all, who argues on the Internet thinking they can convince or convert people.
Except Sweeden is a unique country with low population and natural resources. Resource rich states can afford it, look at the Gulf States.
Spain doesn't get to abuse Southern Europe like Germany, and lack of political will to see the job done
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
My shallow op ed understanding is that austerity was demanded by the markets to prevent bond prices spiraling out of control. But now bond prices are edging up into danger territory in some Mediterranean countries despite austerity. Austerity promoters say this is temporary and a necessary step to reform. Keynesians disagree and see it as the beginning of a major contraction that was preventable.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Well you're also getting Speculawyer back as his 3 month ended with mine today. Truthfully I have a crap ton of stuff coming up and will be infrequent, but I decided a little fun and debate would be a nice way to relax. Besides I normally am more topic based than the Poli catch all thread as my interests tend to go towards foreign, law, and stuff blow up analysis. That said I'm not going into any Iran threads.
About right, ya. They attempt to fix it with more austerity, it pushes back the situation a little, but eventually ends up in the same place. We saw this very recently with Spain (except I don't think the latest announced cuts are going to prolong much of anything anymore). People that believe the EU should continue this are wrong. There are serious problems with the Euro right now that will need to be met with serious solutions. The current trend of austerity is not one of those.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
How did you and spec get the axe? Glad to have both of you guys back.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Given the financial situations of people on handouts what kind of revenue sources do you expect them to create?
I must've missed it.
Care to repeat?
So I cover population (in the very post you replied to by the way), unless you have a counterpoint, I'm going to ignore it.
Resources?
You're saying the US is short on natural resources?
What?
Also (2), if rich countries can afford welfare, how come you think it's the cause of Europe woes?
Sweden GDP per capita is about the same as the Europe's average.
Also (3), the US has a higher GDP per capita than Sweden, so between that and our resources we should be good to go on a welfare state, right?
cartoon_soldier
Member
NRA believes Obama administration deliberately allowed the fast and furios operation (even though it was started under Bush) so that he can take away everybody's guns. They actively dabble in conspiracy theories about Obama and are scaring people into buying more guns.
NAACP is nothing like that.
And if Obama said that NRA leaders in private back him and not Romney because of whatever reasons he would be the laughing stock of the Media. Is Romney?
reggieandTFE
Member
Don't forget all those gun threads to compensate for your tiny...
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