PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread |OT2| This thread title is now under military control

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Yes, it would have a legal basis then. It would be correct to argue it is a right, since it is recognized in the Constitution, it can also exist from statute, or SC rulings. To demand something as a right (a requirement), you need to have a legal basis.

Okay, I think I understand the confusion then. When I say healthcare is a right what I mean is "healthcare is a right that should be extended to all citizens", you seem to think it means "healthcare is a right as currently defined in the legal framework". No-one who says "healthcare is a right" thinks that healthcare currently is recognized as such, what is meant is that it should be because its an opinion about the greater state of human affairs.

The entire tangent is bizzare and smacks of you being obtuse because when the question is phrased between "right" and "privilege" it seems impossible to misinterpret what's meant since, as far as I know, privilege in this sense has no legal definition
 
When discussing the laws and obligations under them it is.


At the moment I am only speaking towards the legal end.

I hope you continue this line of thinking, because I won't forget how paramount the law is for you. The same laws that had blacks as 3/5ths of a vote, women with no right to vote and slavery when the rest of the world had called it quits, I'm sure they were all very concerned with the rule of law.
 
I wouldn't disagree with someone who said they had a right to Social Security or Medicare. Now, with the ACA the United States is close to Universal Care (every person has healthcare insurance).

No, they are required to or pay a tax penalty.

I'm still waiting for the equivalent of ads for Mandatory Minimum or Stay Legal Car Insurance, but for Health care. That or some Conservative company selling the most non-existent policy as Tax Freedom Protection. In short things that will provide no real coverage but exists for tax purposes/trolling.
 
Yeah, Kornheiser was awesome too. You pinko lefties need to stop pretending you watch sports. Stick to your poetry readings and lecture halls.

He sucked hard initially because he tried to be funny and didn't have the same chemistry he has with Wilbon. I thought he was good after he settled down
 
Okay, I think I understand the confusion then. When I say healthcare is a right what I mean is "healthcare is a right that should be extended to all citizens", you seem to think it means "healthcare is a right as currently defined in the legal framework".
Well if you say it as you do in the first part, I'd have no objection. I just feel that there is nothing wrong with pointing out it's not a right, and feeling that it should remain that way.

No-one who says "healthcare is a right" thinks that healthcare currently is recognized as such, what is meant is that it should be because its an opinion about the greater state of human affairs.
I don't think that's necessarily true, someone just pointed the Deceleration of Independence to say that.


The entire tangent is bizzare and smacks of you being obtuse because when the question is phrased between "right" and "privilege" it seems impossible to misinterpret what's meant since, as far as I know, privilege in this sense has no legal definition
It makes sense if your a lawyer, even if you dislike the opinion itself, the line of argument is a valid.

Privilege does have numerous legal definitions, but that's related to communications, ability to speak with out being sued for slander, etc.
 
Manos, how do you feel about these republican representatives that say they love the constitution but are refusing to implement the ACA, and have people like Rand Paul saying "Just because the Supreme Court says the ACA is Constitutional, doesn't mean that it's constitutional"? How can they claim to love the law of the land if they won't follow it?
 
I hope you continue this line of thinking, because I won't forget how paramount the law is for you. The same laws that had blacks as 3/5ths of a vote, women with no right to vote and slavery until the rest of the world had called it quits, I'm sure they were all very concerned with the rule of law.

Those laws/issues/restrictions were repealed, long before I was born, so I don't see your point.
 
No, they are required to or pay a tax penalty.

I'm still waiting for the equivalent of ads for Mandatory Minimum or Stay Legal Car Insurance, but for Health care. That or some Conservative company selling the most non-existent policy as Tax Freedom Protection. In short things that will provide no real coverage but exists for tax purposes/trolling.

I understand that there are those who will choose to pay the tax penalty, and states forgoing the Medicaid expansion would throw a wrench in this, but those people are a negligible number when talking about this.
 
Manos, how do you feel about these republican representatives that say they love the constitution but are refusing to implement the ACA, and have people like Rand Paul saying "Just because the Supreme Court says the ACA is Constitutional, doesn't mean that it's constitutional"? How can they claim to love the law of the land if they won't follow it?

Rand Paul, like his father are idiots of the highest order. They can claim many things, doesn't meant that actually love or understand the law.

Anyone challenging the enforcement of the Supreme Court and the Constitution is a traitor to the ideals of the founding fathers. Even when it's bad (say Plessy v Ferguson), we are a country of laws, when we stop honoring that we become no better than a tin pot dictatorship who rules people as subjects, not in service of them. You can seek to change those rules, or if allowed to set your own conduct (say for racist discrimination) not implement it, but when you say you can ignore and try to ignore the Judiciary you deserve to get some Federal Troops to enforce the law in your face.
 
Rand Paul, like his father are idiots of the highest order. They can claim many things, doesn't meant that actually love or understand the law.

Anyone challenging the enforcement of the Supreme Court and the Constitution is a traitor to the ideals of the founding fathers. Even when it's bad (say Plessy v Ferguson), we are a country of laws, when we stop honoring that we become no better than a tin pot dictatorship who rules people as subjects, not in service of them. You can seek to change those rules, or if allowed to set your own conduct (say for racist discrimination) not implement it, but when you say you can ignore and try to ignore the Judiciary you deserve to get some Federal Troops to enforce the law in your face.

What about these governors who are saying they aren't going to do shit? Same response?
 
No, they are required to or pay a tax penalty.

I'm still waiting for the equivalent of ads for Mandatory Minimum or Stay Legal Car Insurance, but for Health care. That or some Conservative company selling the most non-existent policy as Tax Freedom Protection. In short things that will provide no real coverage but exists for tax purposes/trolling.

I mean, you could do that I guess, but there's already mechanisms in the law that work with tha All plans have essential benefits defined, and there are actuarial values of how much the plan has to pay out. Even the bronze level plan is probably more generous than many catastrophic plans today, especially in the individual market.

• How will the essential benefits interact with the calculation of actuarial value?

The ACA defines the coverage insurers are required to provide in two different ways, separating the services covered (the essential health benefits) from the amount of cost-sharing enrollees pay (the “actuarial value”). For individual and small group plans, the ACA defines four tiers of coverage: bronze, silver, gold, and platinum. Patient cost-sharing will vary across the tiers, but all plans selling to individuals and small businesses will have to cover the essential health benefits. The different tiers of coverage in the law are not defined using specific deductibles, copays, and coinsurance. Rather, they are specified using the concept of an "actuarial value" (AV). For example, a silver plan has an actuarial value of 70%, which means that for a standard population, the plan will pay 70% of their health care expenses on average, while the enrollees themselves will pay 30% through some combination of deductibles, copays, and coinsurance. The higher the actuarial value, the less patient cost-sharing the plan will have on average. The percentage a plan pays for any given enrollee will generally be different from the actuarial value, depending upon the health care services used and the total cost of those services. And, the details of the patient cost-sharing will likely vary from plan to plan.

How the actuarial value is calculated – which has not been addressed in regulations issued so far by the federal government and was not part of the IOM’s charge – could have significant implications for what the scope of services covered might be. For example, a recent brief from the American Academy of Actuaries recently suggested that any benefit limits “that are not defined specifically in the essential benefits package presumably would be reflected in the numerator of an actuarial value calculation, but the allowed cost of the entire episode(s) would be included in the denominator.” This means that a plan imposing benefit limits – covering, say, no more than 30 days in a hospital – would lower its actuarial value and have to make up the difference somewhere else in the coverage it provides. However, different rules for calculating actuarial value might not penalize plans for limiting benefits, making such limitations more likely.

http://healthreform.kff.org/notes-o...uestions-about-essential-health-benefits.aspx
 
I don't think you will find any specific point in the constitution in regards to healthcare itself. Neither will you find something on affordable housing provided by HUD or food for the poor through SNAP. It's all lumped under the general welfare clause. I also don't know why you would want to have something that rigid in the constitution anyway. The framers specifically mention they wanted the law to be flexible because they realized things can change quickly. Nowhere is it mention that government can regulate the electromagnetic spectrum, but the FCC does through the commerce clause. Why should they be able to if it has existed before humankind even came about?

And if the government did not try to make healthcare, housing, or food affordable what would happen to our society? Would there be more crime? More unnecessary death? More suffering? Oh, I forgot that I was arguing with Manos who thinks that the poor will find a way out of their hole by making their money "stretch out" more.

Snark is my life. Stop trampling my Jefferson given rights.
Now that I think about it eznark, the government is not stopping your pursuit of that F-350. So your pursuit of happiness is still possible.
 
This new controversy over Romney's Bain departure is gonna blow up.

CNN confirmed that an SEC filing from 2001 also lists Romney as the "sole shareholder, sole director, Chief Executive Officer and President of Bain Capital."

Roberta Karmel, a former SEC commissioner who served during President Jimmy Carter's administration, said the documents raise questions about Romney's role at Bain after the GOP contender says he left the company.

"It's a criminal offense to file a false document with the SEC," Karmel said. "And if that isn't true, then he made a false filing, which is something I don't think he wants to claim."

She continued: "If he listed himself and he was getting paid, he was legally responsible."

"Either you're the owner or you're not the owner," Karmel added. "You can't have it both ways."

But Romney's campaign said the Boston Globe article "is not accurate," insisting the candidate left when he says he left.

"As Bain Capital has said, as Governor Romney has said, and as has been confirmed by independent fact checkers multiple times, Governor Romney left Bain Capital in February of 1999 to run the Olympics and had no input on investments or management of companies after that point," Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul said in a statement.
 
What about these governors who are saying they aren't going to do shit? Same response?

Yeah, just like Ike did in Little Rock. Fuck'em!

I'm guessing his response is yes. I disagree with Manos on a lot (okay, most) things but he does generally stick to his principles.
Thank you, I do try.


I mean, you could do that I guess, but there's already mechanisms in the law that work with tha All plans have essential benefits defined, and there are actuarial values of how much the plan has to pay out. Even the bronze level plan is probably more generous than many catastrophic plans today, especially in the individual market.



http://healthreform.kff.org/notes-o...uestions-about-essential-health-benefits.aspx

Makes sense to include that, otherwise you'd have so many people "on health care" who couldn't cover a cut being taken care of.
 
This new controversy over Romney's Bain departure is gonna blow up.

Wow. How the hell did the Romney campaign fuck this up? They've been saying that he left the company in 1999. Why would you openly lie about something when you know that the SEC record exists?
 
With that said, how can you align yourself with a group of folks who claim to love the law, and the constitution, but won't do what they're supposed to given the circumstances?

I'm not asking to attack you, or pull some "gotcha" or whatever. I'm curious.

Who said I align myself with them? Like I said I think Rand and Ron are two of the dumbest elected officials currently around. You have to explain who I'm aligning myself with so I can give you a better answer.
 
That's the difference between me up here on my high horse and you lowly Party plebes. I can look past a guys politics and like him.
Especially if they stick to principals.
That's the wrong question.
The question is what's the best way to provide healthcare.

I don't think Obamacare is close to be that, but it's an improvement over the current situation.
I refrain from that particular argument. Although I contend there is a cogent normative argument for universal health care, and I suspect you would concur, I don't know that I'd qualify it a right. Regardless, the the benefits of the system should form the thrust of the argument. Not only can we provide a vital service to the public, it introduces coherence to the system which reduces costs. It would be an unassailable boon to most.
I love how the biggest thing Obama has to work with is recycled Newt Gingrich stuff. I guess that's like the irony of who the original Birther support came from.


I think the current President has been working on that one for a while.
This is far from the biggest thing. These are distractions primarily to fill the unrelenting news cycle; although, if there is a hint of impropriety, it could become problematic for Romney.
 
This new controversy over Romney's Bain departure is gonna blow up.
It seems like Romney is too smart to make a mistake like this, especially one his own vetting staff would likely know about. Dunno...just seems like amateur hour stuff; from Romney, not the press

How will he respond to this? Apparently someone involved in filing the SEC report is a democrat, but I don't see that bein an effective excuse.
 
This is far from the biggest thing. These are distractions primarily to fill the unrelenting news cycle; although, if there is a hint of impropriety, it could become problematic for Romney.

Well for the moment at least, it just seems Bain Capital (in general) has been one of the more common things the Obama campaign has been using for the past few months.
 
Who said I align myself with them? Like I said I think Rand and Ron are two of the dumbest elected officials currently around. You have to explain who I'm aligning myself with so I can give you a better answer.

The stuff I've seen you post in here leads me to believe you're a conservative. A metric FUCK TON of conservatives are saying they will not cooperate with the ruling of the supreme court on the ACA. Seeing that you're a man that seems to care about the law, is there no cognitive dissonance by being part of a party that claims to love the law, claims to love constitution, but are now being babies because things didn't go their way?
 
The stuff I've seen you post in here leads me to believe you're a conservative. A metric FUCK TON of conservatives are saying they will not cooperate with the ruling of the supreme court on the ACA. Seeing that you're a man that seems to care about the law, is there no cognitive dissonance by being part of a party that claims to love the law, claims to love constitution, but are now being babies because things didn't go their way?

Registered Democrat actually, it's more FP policy I'm conservative (look up Scoop Jackson), I may strongly dislike a lot of the policies, but I'm not voting for most Republicans. I may use they for single issues I care about, but it's the issue, not the politician.
 
He sucked hard initially because he tried to be funny and didn't have the same chemistry he has with Wilbon. I thought he was good after he settled down

Tirico was actively trying to sabotage him so I'm not surprised it was difficult. Same with Miller.

Especially if they stick to principals.

Whether or not I like a guy has nothing to do with getting my vote, except on hyper-local levels.
 
Registered Democrat actually, it's more FP policy I'm conservative (look up Scoop Jackson), I may strongly dislike a lot of the policies, but I'm not voting for most Republicans. I may use they for single issues I care about, but it's the issue, not the politician.

Just out of curiousity, what are your thoughts on how Obama handled foriegn policy during his first term. I feel like the general concensus among those here is that, while there are some legitimate complaints, he is largely such a step up that most of those get drowned out.
 
Well for the moment at least, it just seems Bain Capital (in general) has been one of the more common things the Obama campaign has been using for the past few months.
The news cycle is unrelenting. This an issue which Obama can assail Romney with marginal costs. If it remains in the news cycle, it's at worst a push. And if it were to expose impropriety, it wounds Romney's candidacy. Notwithstanding, Obama has attacked Romney on issues of greater import; immigration was a recent issue which will have implications as the campaign progresses.
Fuck the NFL. College football (preferably at public universities, so they're paying for everything with taxpayer money) or bust!

Kornheiser? Dennis Miller? Screw those losers, I'll take Erin Andrews.
Who needs Erin Andrews when you have Kirk Herbstreit?
Whether or not I like a guy has nothing to do with getting my vote, except on hyper-local levels.
You value principals. I understand that.
 
C'mon guys cut him some slack. Resume errors happen. His grandparents told him he left in 1999, it was family lore.

Romney is amazingly incompetent.
 
You guys are f'd, the Kids Are All Libertarians

http://www.vice.com/read/the-kids-are-all-libertarians
I kind of suspect either the GOP to die outright and Libertarian Party to take its place as the counter party to the Democrats (with Constitution Party carving a small niche for the rednecks I guess), or the more likely scenario that the Paulists will just take over the GOP from the inside and lurch left on social issues like the drug war while doubling down on economic crazy. This will all be fueled by the young libertarian movement.
 
GOP controls the majority of state houses, House and a better than even shot at taking the Senate. Yeah, that party is totally dead. Libertarian party time!

:(

It's amazing how bad he is at running for office considering he's been at it since 1994.

No shit. You're supposed to be dumping all of this baggage in bits and pieces on the road to your actual run.

Makes me wonder just how incredibly incompetent the MA democratic party was when he won office. Though, they were pretty intertwined with the Bulger mess at the time I believe so they were probably just ducking and covering.
 
GOP controls the majority of state houses, House and a better than even shot at taking the Senate. Yeah, that party is totally dead. Libertarian party time!

:(
Probably not soon, maybe 10-20 years or so when all the college Ron Paul kids start running for office.

I'd also wager the GOP will lose at least half the state legislatures they won in 2010 but whatever.
 
Probably not soon, maybe 10-20 years or so when all the college Ron Paul kids start running for office.

I'd also wager the GOP will lose at least half the state legislatures they won in 2010 but whatever.

That would require another Obama Tsunami, which Romney is desperately trying to create.
 
Fuck the NFL. College football (preferably at public universities, so they're paying for everything with taxpayer money) or bust!

Kornheiser? Dennis Miller? Screw those losers, I'll take Erin Andrews.

Sorry, I love me some Doctor Lou Holtz on ESPN or Vern Lundquist on CBS.
 
The Romney camp's response is laughable
"Although Governor Romney was not involved with Bain Capital after he left to head the Winter Olympics in 1999, he was still listed on some technical filings," the official said. "This is nothing more than a quirk in the law. When Governor Romney took over the Olympics, he was not involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way. He was too busy working to make the Olympic Games among the most successful ever held."
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...utes-report-he-misled-on-bain-departure-date/
 
I may disagree with Libertarians on just about everything, but I'd rather they be more prominent in the national scene than the current republicans.

Hell, I wish we could have more parties get more attention. Allow the Green Party and Libertarian Party or whoever to receive as much attention as the Democrats and Republicans. I don't see that happening anytime soon, though.



LOL Being “sole stockholder, chairman of the board, chief executive officer, and president” of Bain and owning 100% of it through 2002 is nothing more than a technicality and a quirk in the law, guys!
 
That would require another Obama Tsunami, which Romney is desperately trying to create.
There's a lot of state legs in blue/purple states where Republicans only have a majority by a couple of seats. Oregon's state house for example is a 30-30 tie, and Colorado's state house would only need 2 seats to flip for Democrats to regain control. And of course in Minnesota Democrats are romping Republicans in the generic ballot in a neutral redistricting scheme. There's plenty of low-hanging fruit though I don't expect Democrats in like, Virginia or North Carolina to come back swinging even though Obama will be competitive there.

PhoenixDark said:
The Romney camp's response is laughable
This seems like a case of Romney lying when he doesn't have to, so it looks even worse when it actually comes up. Would it really matter to anyone if he'd said from the beginning he was running the company through 2002?
 
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