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[Vestal]

Tangentially related to flippy flopping...

Okay random point, why don't politicians just submit that when they flip they are doing so just because they are respecting the views of their constituencies. "hey I was a politician in Mass, it has a lot of liberals, so I pursued liberal goals in a conservative manner, now I'm running to be the president of a country that's on the whole more conservative so I'm taking more conservative positions to represent those people better."

Why is that not an acceptable line of reasoning? Sure, people want to understand that the positions they vote for are the ones that the politicans will follow, but people also want a politician that will change views to suit their own if need be. Why is complete obstinance in the face of your constituencies preferences seen as some kind of good thing?

Because it simply does not work in our political climate. Its UNAMERICAN.. How much would you like a guy who is always rooting for the best team in xyz league?

People want to have a candidate with some basic principals. Something that defines them in xyz manner. If you constantly change position, people begin to question why you won't change position again once you are elected.

 

[Hitokage]

As I've said before, what's really offensive isn't the change in platform, it's the insistence that he's always held it as he does now when it's trivial to demonstrate otherwise.

 

[gutter_trash]

Completely agree.

This election just seems like a redux of 2004. Referendum on unpopular President. Milquetoast opposition candidate, who spends the entire time on defense because the incumbent effectively defines him.

The only difference I see is that while the Iraq war, circa 2004, was more emotionally polarizing than the economy is today, the sad state and direction of the economy touches more of the electorate than the war did.

Karl Rove should have remained secret in the shadows instead of being so public for everyone to analyze their strategy.

Gibbs and Axelrod have studied Bush 43's campaigns extensively and now Romney is eating it

 

[electricpirate]

Because it simply does not work in our political climate. Its UNAMERICAN.. How much would you like a guy who is always rooting for the best team in xyz league?

People want to have a candidate with some basic principals. Something that defines them in xyz manner. If you constantly change position, people begin to question why you won't change position again once you are elected.

Right that's the downside, but isn't it more important for a politician who does what's right for their constituents, rather than only being able to elect politicians from areas who have similar views to your own?

 

[Tim-E]

Right that's the downside, but isn't it more important for a politician who does what's right for their constituents, rather than only being able to elect politicians from areas who have similar views to your own?

American Politics.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

American Politics.

It's different with local and state to an extent. You tend to see more splitting of votes along the idea of best person for the job.

 

[gcubed]

It's different with local and state to an extent. You tend to see more splitting of votes along the idea of best person for the job.

I vote republican on my local ticket because the guys running the show when i moved to my town are doing a fine job and continue to do so.

I would vote for whatever party i felt would do the best job for me. Local politics has a much larger impact on my everyday life and tend to be the kind of republicans i can vote for (socially liberal, pragmatically fiscally conservative... a blue dog democrat, but 90% of my town identifies as republican), but what a national spotlight republican can't be "un-pure" enough for me to be able to vote for them and still get a nomination.

 

[Hitokage]

Thanks to the magic of state republican parties nationalizing their platforms, now more ballots can be free of concerns over who best serves their constituents.

 

[Chichikov]

It's also worth noting that much like '04, many good candidates sat on a sidelines because they prematurely thought that the president is unbeatable (both got a huge popularity boosts due to Iraq war in Bush's case and Bin Laden in Obama's).

Thanks to the magic of state republican parties nationalizing their platforms, now more ballots can be free of concerns over who best serves their constituents.

The creep of national politics into local ones is probably the worst manifestation of the current hyper-partisan state we're in.

I've been trying to figure out if this is something that happened historically during contentious times in Washington or if this is a unique/new/unusual phenomenon, there are some papers on the subject, but I think I'll have to once again delve into local newspapers archives.
But I love doing that shit anyway.

 

[VanMardigan]

Running as an incumbent is a totally different beast. Obama had everything going for him in 2008 - the first sorta clean, articulate African American candidate running essentially a perfect campaign. That's a storybook, man.

It's impossible to do that the second time around, especially with this economy.

Explain that a bit more for me.

 

[gcubed]

Explain that a bit more for me.

 

[Blergmeister]

Explain that a bit more for me.

All them Lysol wipes.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Running as an incumbent is a totally different beast. Obama had everything going for him in 2008 - the first sorta clean, articulate African American candidate running essentially a perfect campaign. That's a storybook, man.

It's impossible to do that the second time around, especially with this economy.

Agreed, though for pragmatic sakes, I DO wonder what the narrative would be like had Obama never said "Spread the wealth" to Joe the Plumber, nor even alluded to anything of the sort. Would he still be called a socialist? Better reach from the bases on other issues? Less "fear" from the other side?

 

[AlteredBeast]

Who is that?

 

[gcubed]

Who is that?

The domestic terrorist himself Bill Ayers. If it wasn't for Ayers' living room, Obama would still be Barry from the block!

 

[AlteredBeast]

Agreed, though for pragmatic sakes, I DO wonder what the narrative would be like had Obama never said "Spread the wealth" to Joe the Plumber, nor even alluded to anything of the sort. Would he still be called a socialist? Better reach from the bases on other issues? Less "fear" from the other side?

Did he also become white and republican, because that is what it would take. Don't kid yourself, almost nothing that President Obama has said or done has made him the boogeyman that the GOP makes him out to be. Very centrist and downright sensible in most positions.

 

[Chichikov]

Did he also become white and republican, because that is what it would take. Don't kid yourself, almost nothing that President Obama has said or done has made him the boogeyman that the GOP makes him out to be. Very centrist and downright sensible in most positions.

It's not even about being white.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure racial sentiments play a part in Obama's opposition, but this is about their jobs.
There's a lot of money to be made by getting elected, so getting elected is the number one priority of pretty much everyone in Washington.

And if that's your priority, what do you expect them to do?
Say the other guy is quite alright?

Fuck, look at the attacks Kerry got, and he's one of the whitest people alive.

The sad thing is that larger and larger parts of the electorate are starting to put party ahead of country (though probably not consciously), and that's really dangerous.

 

[codhand]

The domestic terrorist himself Bill Ayers. If it wasn't for Ayers' living room, Obama would still be Barry from the block!

I wanna have a beer summit with Ayers and Wright, they seem like cool dudes.

 

[RDreamer]

The sad thing is that larger and larger parts of the electorate are starting to put party ahead of country (though probably not consciously), and that's really dangerous.

As income inequality goes up, so does partisanship, and congress becomes more polarized.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

How long has it been since a Democratic presidential candidate got a narrative with traction?

The last President I can think of would be LBJ. Not only did he have the memorable phrase "In your heart, you know he's right; in your gut, you know he's nut" but also the Daisy ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExjDzDsgbww. The reasons Democrats sucked after that is because they went into the wilderness in 1968, 1972, 1984, and 1988. Then they nominated two Southern guys in Carter and Clinton. In fact I would say that the South has had a high influence on our society since 1968 until recently when they don't matter as much thanks to states in the Mountain West.

Explain that a bit more for me.

I think he is referring to a comment Biden made in the 2008 primary. He called Obama fresh, clean, and articulate.

 

[RDreamer]

I think he is referring to a comment Biden made in the 2008 primary. He called Obama fresh, clean, and articulate.

I think he's asking about the "sorta."

 

[Tim-E]

but also the Daisy ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExjDzDsgbww

Dear lord :lol
How have I not seen this?

Another LBJ ad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-VzZQGWOqA&feature=related

These are creepy.

 

[AlteredBeast]

It's not even about being white.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure racial sentiments play a part in Obama's opposition, but this is about their jobs.
There's a lot of money to be made by getting elected, so getting elected is the number one priority of pretty much everyone in Washington.

And if that's your priority, what do you expect them to do?
Say the other guy is quite alright?

Fuck, look at the attacks Kerry got, and he's one of the whitest people alive.

The sad thing is that larger and larger parts of the electorate are starting to put party ahead of country (though probably not consciously), and that's really dangerous.

Too true. Sad that people would rather see a country in gridlock, tens of millions of dollars wasted, progress failed and stalled until their party is in control so that they get credit for it. Look at the individual mandate, a GOP-proposed initiative for healthcare, now despised because the Dems passed it. The DREAM ACT was proposed by Orrin Hatch and then blocked by other Republicans.

 

[reilo]

But that's just it - it's really not that ludicrous. Having worked in private equity myself, I know that even the top managers of the firm actually have limited discussion with the CEO. Bain was obviously doing well enough into 1999 that Romney decided he utilize his time to a less streneous occupation for a couple of years while his managers ensured a heatlhy return for the firm.

It's a bit ridiculous to compare a private citizen and head of a company to the President of the United States. There's no reason for Romney to take responsibility for anything he didn't personally partake in. In fact, it's unreasonable for us to expect that unless we have damning evidence of his complicity, and if we don't then we probably shouldn't lump him in the same category as those who were complicit.

That's not the argument Mitt Romney and many business-owners-turned-politicians have argued in the past.

"I ran a successful Fortune 500 company as CEO, therefore I will make the economy better!"

 

[ezekial45]

Dear lord :lol
How have I not seen this?

Yeah, me too. That's fucking crazy. The only other ad like this one is for that guy a few years back that insinuated a suicide bomber would attack a playground with kids. I can't remember who it was for, though.

Are there any more ads like this? It's interesting watching these.

 

[Hitokage]

Too true. Sad that people would rather see a country in gridlock, tens of millions of dollars wasted, progress failed and stalled until their party is in control so that they get credit for it. Look at the individual mandate, a GOP-proposed initiative for healthcare, now despised because the Dems passed it. The DREAM ACT was proposed by Orrin Hatch and then blocked by other Republicans.

Last decade's Republican values are this year's communism. It's just so stupid.

 

[Tim-E]

Yeah, me too. That's fucking crazy. The only other ad like this one is for that guys a few years back that insinuated a suicide bomber would attack a playground with kids. I can't remember who it was for, though.

Are there any more ads like this?

This website could keep you busy for hours:
http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/

They have an entire category focused on ads that use fear:
http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/type/fear

 

[PhoenixDark]

Running as an incumbent is a totally different beast. Obama had everything going for him in 2008 - the first sorta clean, articulate African American candidate running essentially a perfect campaign. That's a storybook, man.

It's impossible to do that the second time around, especially with this economy.

True. But I'm curious: you maintain that the electorate is not paying attention, therefore Obama is wasting ammunition while Romney waits for August. But as you have said, running for the first time is different than running as the incumbent. Incumbents have to define their opponents early and stay consistent. Bush was destroying Kerry quite early by sowing doubt on his readiness to lead. Obama is running a very similar campaign. It's worth noting that Bush's 04 campaign is considered one of the best ever. How much of that is due to merit, or due to him facing a bad candidate? And as I said, Kerry still almost won

The problem for Romney is that the map looks more like Kerry's than Bush's, who had multiple paths to 270 as Obama does. The map has flipped in the west: NM, Co, and possibly NV are blue. Like Kerry, Romney has to win nearly every swing state just to have a chance. And while I obviously think he will still win, that's based on extreme outside circumstances

 

[TacticalFox88]

Too true. Sad that people would rather see a country in gridlock, tens of millions of dollars wasted, progress failed and stalled until their party is in control so that they get credit for it. Look at the individual mandate, a GOP-proposed initiative for healthcare, now despised because the Dems passed it. The DREAM ACT was proposed by Orrin Hatch and then blocked by other Republicans.

Never forget

That should tell you something.

Also this:

 

[AlteredBeast]

Last decade's Republican values are this year's communism. It's just so stupid.

I hope the GOP comes back around next election cycle. The Tea Party is the worst thing to happen to American politics in a LONG time.

 

[Loudninja]

Ed Rendell really needs to shut up

“It’s a great ad in the making. But on the other hand, I think Carol also made a very good point about all this attack may be hurting the president’s brand a little bit, too,” Rendell said on an MSNBC panel show. “I think our supporters went a little bit too far with the felony business.”

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/ed-rendell-obama-team-going-too-far-on

 

[Hitokage]

I hope the GOP comes back around next election cycle. The Tea Party is the worst thing to happen to American politics in a LONG time.

Eh, this process started well before the Tea Party showed up. It's just that the purge of moderates is more recent.

 

[Clevinger]

PARADE: During your presidency you gave in on your “no new taxes” pledge. You’ve been vindicated in many respects for that decision. I wonder how you view the “no new tax” pledge from Grover Norquist that seems to be requisite for GOP political candidates.

HW Bush: The rigidity of those pledges is something I don’t like. The circumstances change and you can’t be wedded to some formula by Grover Norquist. It’s—who the hell is Grover Norquist, anyway?
Barbara Bush: I think he ought to go back to Alaska. [laughs] Don’t quote me! [A reference to a comment Mrs. Bush made about Sarah Palin in a 2010 interview, in which she said, “I think she’s very happy in Alaska—and I hope she’ll stay there.”]

God damn it, HW, why can't we have more Republicans like you. Also, it's funny looking back at Bill Hicks' standup with him thinking HW was the devil. He would have went insane if he lived long enough to witness the modern GOP.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Eh, this process started well before the Tea Party showed up. It's just that the purge of moderates is more recent.

What I mean is that the Tea Party is what is galvanizing the party towards non-sensical conservatism and driving out what should have been the party's return (or endeavor) to moderation. The problem is, after getting swept in 2008, instead of doing the smart thing and latching onto progressive ideals, they were emboldened after winning in congress and around the country in local elections.

 

[worldrunover]

God damn it, HW, why can't we have more Republicans like you. Also, it's funny looking back at Bill Hicks' standup with him thinking HW was the devil. He would have went insane if he lived long enough to witness the modern GOP.

Personally I can't wait for 20 years from now when a real progressive becomes president and the GOP looks back fondly at that moderate Barack Obama.

 

[Tim-E]

Ed Rendell really needs to shut up

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/ed-rendell-obama-team-going-too-far-on

Rendell gets angry anytime anyone criticizes private equity. Must've had some big donors from that industry for his gubernatorial campaigns.

 

[Hitokage]

Personally I can't wait for 20 years from now when a real progressive becomes president and the GOP looks back fondly at that moderate Barack Obama.

My fantasy: Democrats rediscover their spines while Republicans rediscover intellectual conservatism. Politics becomes meaningful again.

 

[Clevinger]

Personally I can't wait for 20 years from now when a real progressive becomes president and the GOP looks back fondly at that moderate Barack Obama.

More likely a progressive liberal in 20 years is going to look like HW by the way things are moving.

 

[PhoenixDark]

My fantasy: Democrats rediscover their spines while Republicans rediscover intellectual conservatism. Politics becomes meaningful again.

You mean dems rediscover their racism,republicans rediscover their progressive stances?

 

[Hitokage]

You mean dems rediscover their racism,republicans rediscover their progressive stances?

I said this was fantasy.

 

[thezerofire]

Ok, so my dad has repeatedly said recently that the economy is getting worse because more people have gone on unemployment than jobs were added. Is this even true? I can't keep up with the jobs situation well enough myself to say otherwise.

Also, my dad is a lawyer so it's basically impossible to argue with him on anything

 

[PantherLotus]

My fantasy: Democrats rediscover their spines while Republicans rediscover intellectual conservatism. Politics becomes meaningful again.

Fantasy indeed! I'm not sure both can occur at the same time, and I question whether either was every actually a reality, especially the latter.

 

[Aaron Strife]

I can't believe how badly Romney is imploding. What a joke.

I hope the economy improves enough so Obama can just pizzown this guy and then come into his second term swinging.

 

[pigeon]

Ok, so my dad has repeatedly said recently that the economy is getting worse because more people have gone on unemployment than jobs were added. Is this even true? I can't keep up with the jobs situation well enough myself to say otherwise.

Also, my dad is a lawyer so it's basically impossible to argue with him on anything

For the last three job reports, subtracting growth in the workforce and adding in the seasonal adjustment (downwards, because the assumption is that more jobs are created in the summer), we've trended very slightly downwards in jobs. Overall we're still up a bunch for the year.

 

[Clevinger]

Ok, so my dad has repeatedly said recently that the economy is getting worse because more people have gone on unemployment than jobs were added. Is this even true? I can't keep up with the jobs situation well enough myself to say otherwise.

Also, my dad is a lawyer so it's basically impossible to argue with him on anything

For the past couple months, yeah.

 

[MonkeyKing]

I hope the GOP comes back around next election cycle. The Tea Party is the worst thing to happen to American politics in a LONG time.

Romney will be blamed for not being conservative enough. The party will lurch further to the right, as conservatism never fails, it is only failed by those not sufficiently conservative

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

I hope the GOP comes back around next election cycle. The Tea Party is the worst thing to happen to American politics in a LONG time.

They should come back around when the demographics shift, and they can no longer depend on white, older men to get elected. Just a matter of time.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Rick Santorum

 

[thezerofire]

For the last three job reports, subtracting growth in the workforce and adding in the seasonal adjustment (downwards, because the assumption is that more jobs are created in the summer), we've trended very slightly downwards in jobs. Overall we're still up a bunch for the year.

For the past couple months, yeah.

Thanks guys.
Does people leaving the job search/rejoining it have anything do to do with anything here?

 

[Gray Man]

Rick Santorum

People like Rick Santorum will never go away, and they won't ever be elected. Do you think he would have gotten half as far without the media? I don't.