http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8
Michigan needs to start blaring this all over the schoolyard.
Michigan needs to start blaring this all over the schoolyard.
Horrific 10 Percent Literacy Rate Prompts ACLU to Sue Michigan Schools
- Thread starter prwxv3
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Please tone down the inflammatory language. I realize that sometimes people can be frustratingly ignorant and these are sensitive issues, but it will only make the discussion more acrimonious.
I might have mentioned this in a topic you've already read, but I am (well was, until I was just linked to this topic) reading Michael Eric Dyson's Was Bill Cosby Right? (Or Has The Black Middle Class Lost Its Mind?), which covers a lot of the material you're talking about. If you haven't read it, you would probably appreciate it.
I might have mentioned this in a topic you've already read, but I am (well was, until I was just linked to this topic) reading Michael Eric Dyson's Was Bill Cosby Right? (Or Has The Black Middle Class Lost Its Mind?), which covers a lot of the material you're talking about. If you haven't read it, you would probably appreciate it.
turnbuckle
Member
from wikipedia:
How can the schools be the problem if the are no schools?
How can the schools be the problem if the are no schools?
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
You might as well just pay to let the bright students attend private schools, it's a lot cheaper and will be able to cover more people.
dragonlife
Member
Wow at the statistics.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I doubt that parental involvement has anything to do with this number aside from possibly stopping their kids going to school but even if these kids had a half-arsed attendancy you shouldn't see a 90% illiteracy rate.
The school is definitely at fault here, and if they are failing due to inadequate funds then it's on the state.
The school is definitely at fault here, and if they are failing due to inadequate funds then it's on the state.
PhoenixDark
Banned
young cats can't spell but can rock you at playstation
You have a place with a 10% literacy rate. It's unheard of in the Western world, much less in the richest country on the planet.
This place is a district outside of Detroit which has a significant population of Black people in it. A race who, since ya know America started, have been a bit disenfranchised. They have no history of wealth and are live in a city which has gradually decreasing public funding and private jobs to find employment in.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe a city with an 80% racial make up of White people would reach this point. It's a bit frustrating for some people to read this story and the response to be "parents suck" instead of "maybe there's an issue with society at large in this area we should address."
I think you bring up a good point about money going to schools. Many times, when money is discussed, it is money going towards the teacher salaries or other administrative costs. There needs to be money towards more after school programs and directly towards helping kids. This includes providing resources to libraries and encouraging tutors for kids.
As opposed to paying to let 90% of students fail in literacy tests attending public schools? Yeah, I definitely like this alternative a lot more cause the status quo has really worked to help all those children in that district.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Come join us in the RPJ thread if you haven't already!
Silas Lang
Member
Ah yes very true. Well at least there is that. :/
Poor literacy rates are pretty common in rural KY. Guess what their main demographic is?
This is certainly a class issue though. Poor people of most/all races suffer because they get base funding.
Exactly. I skipped through most of high school, but I'm pretty sure I can still read. Granted I love reading, but I still read all my school shit at home, even when I missed class. There have to be huge underlying problems within the foundations of the school system for something like this to happen.
You are making this a race issue when it is really a socio-economics issue. Illiteracy might not be 90% but these same things happen in poor neighbourhoods here in Canada. Go to a school in a wealthy area of the city? 70-80% of students are meeting provincial standards. Go to a school in a poor area of the city? 20-30% of kids are meeting provincial standards. Being Canada, the poor neighbourhoods are still 75% white kids (especially outside of Toronto and Vancouver), so it has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the parents in either area of the city, and everything to do with the disadvantages that come with poverty.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I...I give up.
I used to go and speak at some of these schools in College with my fraternity brothers.
This is me at maximum disheartened.
I used to go and speak at some of these schools in College with my fraternity brothers.
This is me at maximum disheartened.
It's not simply poverty though, it's that poverty makes it more likely that someone will turn to certain types of crime (wealthier people commit crimes too, just of different sorts). And being in that environment makes it harder for a kid to resist what they might perceive as easy money or an easy way out but is really ultimately a trap that keeps kids in a community they can't escape from.
plasmasd
Member
I don't understand how spending more money is going to fix this.
People love to blame their problems on someone else. So it has to be the system, or the teachers. Education isn't something you can force upon someone. It has to be parent supported, and the child themselves has to take initiative in wanting to learn.
In a period of time when information is the most freely accessible in all of human history, you would need to force yourself to be as ignorant as the kids taking these tests. Just with television and youtube alone you have access to more information than the last 1000 generations did in their lifetimes.
People love to blame their problems on someone else. So it has to be the system, or the teachers. Education isn't something you can force upon someone. It has to be parent supported, and the child themselves has to take initiative in wanting to learn.
In a period of time when information is the most freely accessible in all of human history, you would need to force yourself to be as ignorant as the kids taking these tests. Just with television and youtube alone you have access to more information than the last 1000 generations did in their lifetimes.
Shao Kahn Going Shopping
Banned
This is true. So then...what would keep someone from wanting that information?
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Exactly!
Even if they didn't do any homework or read outside of school, you should still not see a 90% illiteracy rate.
The school just failed miserably, and to even attempt to shift the blame to the parents is a bit of a low blow and massively ignoring the real root to the problem.
Who says these kids have access to youtube? Or television?
That's true, but i also think that poverty begets a less fulfilling/capable education experience which in and of itself limits opportunity.
Again, when we are talking about richer areas getting more and better funding,it's because the parents are better involved and more capable of investing in that education system.
Sure, that's true. I'm just saying since in many cases the parents CAN'T be as involved (as I noted, more likely to work multiple jobs, more likely to work longer hours) it makes sense that we should invest in more and better after school programs for kids in poorer areas. My opinion is that a big problem with the schools is NOT the school itself (not that it helps) but the environment they're in out of school. Fix that in ways you can and you might help the kids.
Telosfortelos
Advocate for the People
First, I apologize for insulting you. This is an emotional topic for me, and I get angry when people use poor parenting as an excuse not to do more for children.
We disagree about most things, but here we agree on the need for better, alternative schooling plans. You say your example illustrates that parents are purely to blame, I'd say it illustrates that excellent educational institutions can overcome much. Charter schools aren't always the answer, but I support attempts at reform, and reject institutional barriers (including union pressure), that prohibits troubled districts from attempting new strategies. Do you know the name of the school you're citing?
My niece just finished sixth grade. She goes to a terrible inner city school. Her mother is poorly educated, has had a variety of low paying, unstable jobs (e.g., fast food jobs), but she loves my niece and wants what's best for her. My niece has a better mom than the vast majority of her peers, but even still, her mother can't model good behavior, and doesn't have the learned skillset needed to teach my niece.
My niece also has severe dyslexia. She's struggled with reading through most of her formative years. She only got dyslexia treatment this last year (6th grade), but she didn't do much in that class. The teachers treat her like a child, and don't properly focus on the rote skill-sets she needs to overcome her learning disability. She had to get out of band for the dyslexia class (which she must take in order to get modified tests), and can't do many other extra-curriculars because she doesn't have a ride to pick her up from meetings. She's had teachers that have called her stupid, laughed at her, and I don't think she's ever had what I would consider a good teacher. But she's also brilliant. I can work with her on math for an hour and she'll pick up skills that are well ahead of her grade. I can work with her on her dyslexia for a day and she'll make huge progress. She's very observant, understands complicated things, and is generally really awesome. Unfortunately I only see her a few times a year. I would love it if her mom could pick up the slack, but she's not well educated, is stressed for lack of money. When you're stressed on the level of most poor parents, you are incapable of picking up new skill sets or modifying your behavior in the meaningful sorts of ways these kids need.
I'm in a rush, and can't properly organize my thoughts right now, but the point is: bad parents can't do much, good schools with good teachers can do a lot.
Point taken.
The problem then comes from the higher-income areas having more power to distribute the funds in ways that benefit them.
We have evolved to that point in society that some of the solutions are simply impossible to implement, such as actual discipline for those students who refuse to allow others to learn. Like I said, many of these kids have horrible home lives (or at the least, undisciplined), and attribute whatever cause you want to that, it IS a problem.
The focus needs to be on the kids and the only real solution is 7am - 7pm schooling to give kids a chance to do everything they need to do at school. The solution is not simply more money, bu fundamental structural change. I have yet to see anyone with the balls to implement it.
The focus needs to be on the kids and the only real solution is 7am - 7pm schooling to give kids a chance to do everything they need to do at school. The solution is not simply more money, bu fundamental structural change. I have yet to see anyone with the balls to implement it.
That's true too. I just think ultimately we need to find ways to get poorer areas more able and willing to invest in these programs, even though I know they have a lot of other needs with funding.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Not really surprising. To me the solution is to create incentives for parents to have their kids get good grades (a more first world version of Bolsa Família), fix the money distribution between schools (America spends more per capita than almost any other country in the world, including nations where college is free, its a distribution issue not a funding issue), have a model to get schools more egalitarian across the country. Pretty simple really.
Best post in the thread.
Pretty much. I will be the first one to tell you that the education system needs a radical overhaul but not in that direction.
Best post in the thread.
Pretty much. I will be the first one to tell you that the education system needs a radical overhaul but not in that direction.
Wait so 1% of the population is Asian?
Does that mean every Asian kid in the school district failed the science portion?
The parents are already shit. That's a given. The way to save that and subsequent generations is to give them the tools to be BETTER than their parents. I was given that opportunity in a GOOD public school system, went to college, did better than my parents. SCHOOL is the answer, not dismissive blaming of parents.
Good SCHOOLS. Public schools. Charter schools are a stage in the privatization of those systems that will eventually do the opposite of their short term impact.
FIX THE SCHOOLS if you want to fix the (next) parents.
SouthernDragon
Member
That might be a problem.
Well, this is one particular school district in Detroit metro area.
Michigan overall is doing way better.
Free lunch, and a safe place to be during the day. Those tend to be the two main draws of school for terribly poor children and violent neighborhoods who could easily skip without their parents caring.
timetokill
Banned
It'd actually be almost impressive if the tests are multiple choice.
Boarding SCHOOLS are I think the schools that you are getting at. The ones where the parents are removed from the equation.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
"FIX THE SCHOOLS" by what? People have to be willing or have a desire to learn. This presents a problem, how do you keep the toxic elements of home or fellow students away? Do you remove some elements and acknowledge nothing is going to help, regardless of material, personal, or wealth available or expended, and just work to ensure they keep from pulling others down? As soon as school ends doesn't the pulling begin again?
It's not a pleasant question along with the implications it raises, but at some point the issue needs to be addressed.
I sure hope this is a joke post, because whatever implementation flaws it may have, the whole point of NCLB is that it does attempt hold teachers accountable for poor standardized test scores and prevent students from graduating without reaching minimum proficiency levels. Really, this is the type of article that would be used by proponents of the policy to say that it has not gone far enough.
Except it isn't that either. It's 90% of them failing the "ready-for-college-level" reading test. That has a much different meaning than the common meaning of "illiteracy", which has a much lower bar.
I second this notion. I think our public schools are now teaching in old ways that don't always work well with the more recent generations of today. They have so much more media around them than any generation ever has. Here are a couple ideas I've gotten on this issue
Everyone starts at 0 and you earn your 100, no one should start with a 100 for doing nothing.
Teachers should encourage kids to learn and study outside of the classroom. I don't need statistics to state kids that study outside of school tend to do better.
On that same idea promote small amounts of extra credit for studying but make it more modern.
Schools and teachers create facebook groups for study sessions, a place where they can ask friends for help, or even the teacher when they need it.
More projects and less tests, I know so many friends who have comprehended something, but bomb tests due to their design.
Public schools need to be fun, ultimately I think classrooms that are promote education in fun and engaging ways, have the potential to outclass other cultures that put all the emphasis on the work, extreme pressure on the kids, and do nothing but standardized tests.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Asian people don't have an "understands science" gene.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Give the parents and kids incentive to learn.
African Americans (lets cut through the bullshit, this is who most people refer to when talking about this, especially in a thread about Detroit) are a group of people who have came up from (up until one or two generations ago) extreme discrimination and poverty. Its no surprise that they don't believe that the system will benefit them, and to an extent they are right. Their schools are deteriorated, the economy of their communities is in the shitter, the incarceration rate of their ethnicity is so radically high that it trumps significantly even beyond the high crime rate in their communities, and you still have the broken social welfare system (that while is abused at times it also fails to provide a share of people with their needs, I know we sharply disagree with this topic but I think we can find some common ground with this). To me the best is to at least apply my suggestions above and it would be nice to do other things as well such as ending the drug war so police can start actually policing the communities again. This is a social and economic problem to such a high degree that its straight up embarrassing that its happening to a first world nation, let alone THE world superpower.
AstroNut325
Member
I'm at a loss of words. That is just simply depressing. I grew up in poverty, but I had a drive to get myself and my family out of it. And I did! Now seeing this makes me believe that these kids feel hopeless about their future.
Perhaps it's time we take a long hard look at our education system. It seems school ending at 3PM needs to evolve to more activity based learning experiences. Maybe... I don't know.
Perhaps it's time we take a long hard look at our education system. It seems school ending at 3PM needs to evolve to more activity based learning experiences. Maybe... I don't know.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
What about when they simply don't care or you can't offer incentives they want to learn?
Also what does that say to be people who are motivated and want to learn, that if you didn't care or try you can get stuff because of it?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Cool. Now lets talk about how we can fix that. Unless of course your attitude is "not my problem"
EDIT: For some reason I thought this thread had like thirty posts. I need to refresh more often.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
If they receive government assistance they quickly will.
If people see many in their community achieving social mobility from the working with in the system and receiving more "stuff" because of it, they will.
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