Horrific 10 Percent Literacy Rate Prompts ACLU to Sue Michigan Schools

Status
Not open for further replies.
You people make me sick.

You are so invested in preserving this mental fiction that there is no systemic or societal problem that disadvantages black people in the United States, that your immediate reaction to a school with these types of failure rates is to blame the kids and blame their parents.

It couldn't possibly be the school, it must be because black kids or black parents are lazy or stupid or don't care about education or bettering themselves. Because that's really what you're talking about when you say "well there's plenty of blame to go around" or some such nonsense. We're not the idiots you think we are.

Let's drop the fucking pretense. I'm sick of dancing around this shit.

By the way do you see the youtube comments on the video? Top ones:

ibijYsjJv1LXPj.PNG


And you know what? I actually like those comments more than the bullshit that's being spouted in this thread. At least those idiots are open and honest about what they're actually thinking and feeling.

Your veneer of civility isn't fooling anyone.

Fuck off.

I like you, spot on. The underhanded conniving racism is so fucking ridiculous, especially when they use code words and sly language rather than say what they really mean.

There's probably only 1% of gaf who's genuinely like that though so don't get too heated about it. But these people are ALL OVER yahoo comment sections, youtube etc. where it's just bee hives of anonymity and filth.
 
Funding won't do shit. America already spends more than any other nation in the world per capita on schooling.

What we need is a second FDR. Expand social welfare programs but make them have a catch with something like "your child has to get at least a 2.5 to receive X amount of money, and you get an extra X amount if they receive a 3.0". Completely retool how the money is redistributed in education and make sure to give the poor schools competent amount of cash, make college free or at the very least England levels of cheapness, decriminalize drugs so that cops can focus on you know actual crimes. I'm pretty confident that after doing this and a generation or two passes by America's "lower classes" will look much closer what you would expect from a world superpower in the 21st century.

Um... you do realize we're kind of broke, right? I mean, I agree we need major reforms but no. All you would be giving incentive for there anyway is lower standards and more fudging of results to get that funding.
 
the article said:
During their investigation, the ACLU collected writing samples from a few of the children. One of these students is Quentin, a 14-year-old boy who just finished seventh grade yet is reading at a first-grade level. His letter will "break your heart," Moss said. "In the first sentence, he spells his name incorecctly."

His letter will "break your heart," Moss said. "In the first sentence, he spells his name incorecctly."

lol.
Nice work Jenny, education editor at Takepart.com.


Getting to the actual letter, though... what a tragedy:
Quentin said:
My name is Quemtin and you can make the school gooder by geting people that will do the jod that is pay for get a football tame for the kinds mybe a baksball tamoe get a other jamtacher for the school get a lot of tacher.

There are a bunch of other letters in the report, each one sadder than the last. Here's another, that I'm transcribing from some pretty poor penmanship:
?? said:
My name is (blocked out) I go to Barber foucs school. I wish it was a batter shitter in the clean bathroom. batter teachersand batter lunch.

So sad :(



Other stuff from the report:

Apparently many of the classrooms have no or inadequate heat, so the students and teachers have to keep on their winter clothes (parkas, gloves, etc.) in class. No counselors or vice principals at the schools.

The teachers are worse (I'd imagine it's very hard to attract the good ones). Only 32% of the teachers in the district had a masters or higher, compared to 74-77% elsewhere in Detroit public schools.

One of the classrooms at Barber had over 50 students for the semester, with some students having to sit on the floor or stand at the back of the classroom.

Bathrooms often "Smeared with feces"

A homeless man was able to live and sleep on the facilities without detection by school officials.

Students are prohibited from checking out books from the school library.


And so on. Basically it's a shithole of the worst kind. Face it Edna, these kids have no future, etc.
 
Other stuff from the report:

Apparently many of the classrooms have no or inadequate heat, so the students and teachers have to keep on their winter clothes (parkas, gloves, etc.) in class. No counselors or vice principals at the schools.

One of the classrooms at Barber had over 50 students for the semester, with some students having to sit on the floor or stand at the back of the classroom.

Where the fuck is Michael Moore? We need a new Fahrenheit 9/11, about the US education system.

And for the new page:

Ridiculous. You act as if whites also had problems with gang life and indifference toward school about 80 to 100 years ago and government intervention pulled them out of it or something.

The people in this thread are saying it's the parent's fault. I'm giving a clear example that demonstrates that dumb ass parents won't improve things, and focusing on them is WASTING TIME.

When the "educated" young adults in the 60s went to the village my grand parents lived in (those young adults were their children who had left for the city to study in universities), and tried to inform the population about the levels of pollution in their drinking water, they were basically answered with "We're not going to be told what to do by communists!". Today basically everyone who lives there dies of cancer. I never drink the water. I remember when I was at my grandmother's house, the water coming from the faucet would STINK, and yet they cooked with it. Not only are the water sources often polluted for various reasons (gas stations buried under ground, "drinkable" water taken 10 meters away from sewage drains, etc.), but it also has one of the highest levels of in-house radon in North America. The houses are radioactive.

Add to this superstition/religion and overall happy-to-be-ignorant feelings, and yeah, I can tell you that whatever people think about the parents, it's worthless to spend time on trying to help them smarten their kids. A good education system and free access to it is the only solution, with as little reliance on parents as imaginable.

Trying to fix the problem through the parents is like trying to build a fence around free-roaming sheeps, instead of just building the fence according to the plans and then pushing the sheeps in. One is dumb, the other isn't.
 
Mine did. I always thought these things should be basic if you are going to be a parent.

These parents are often working 12-16 hours a day, cooking the meals, etc.

Unfortunately, they don't feel they have the time to help their children with their homework, as they're doing all they can to feed them and keep a roof over their heads. They can't afford to spend money on things like flash cards.
 
Um... you do realize we're kind of broke, right?

We are?

I mean, I agree we need major reforms but no. All you would be giving incentive for there anyway is lower standards and more fudging of results to get that funding.

Nonsense. America was in a similar situation back in the 30's. Just simply play to it toward your advantage and have a stimulus dedicated to helping the lower classes and rebuilding the middle class.

Even then so it isn't as expensive as most think. The nation could do this and make drastic cuts to military funding and significantly raise taxes on the wealthy and you could still implement everything I've said and be spending less than we are currently on the current budget.


Getting to the actual letter, though... what a tragedy:

Letter said:
My name is Quemtin and you can make the school gooder by geting people that will do the jod that is pay for get a football tame for the kinds mybe a baksball tamoe get a other jamtacher for the school get a lot of tacher.

Jesus Christ.


The people in this thread are saying it's the parent's fault. I'm giving a clear example that demonstrates that dumb ass parents won't improve things, and focusing on them is WASTING TIME.

When the "educated" young adults in the 60s went to the village my grand parents lived in (those young adults were their children who had left for the city to study in universities), and tried to inform the population about the levels of pollution in their drinking water, they were basically answered with "We're not going to be told what to do by communists!". Today basically everyone who lives there dies of cancer. I never drink the water. I remember when I was at my grandmother's house, the water coming from the faucet would STINK, and yet they cooked with it. Not only are the water sources often polluted for various reasons (gas stations buried under ground, "drinkable" water taken 10 meters away from sewage drains, etc.), but it also has one of the highest levels of in-house radon in North America. The houses are radioactive.

Add to this superstition/religion and overall happy-to-be-ignorant feelings, and yeah, I can tell you that whatever people think about the parents, it's worthless to spend time on trying to help them smarten their kids. A good education system and free access to it is the only solution, with as little reliance on parents as imaginable.

Trying to fix the problem through the parents is like trying to build a fence around free-roaming sheeps, instead of just building the fence according to the plans and then pushing the sheeps in. One is dumb, the other isn't.

Perfect.
 
I went to school in the Bronx in the 90s and the illiteracy of my classmate became apparent when I had to switch papers with someone else. Besides chicken scratch handwriting, most couldn't spell simple words. This story stays with me vividly: 1999, 10th grade. My english teacher sees that I finished an in-class essay early and has me look over the work of a popular girl in class. I was stunned and clueless for a very long time because I couldn't make any sense of what she had tried to write. The words, sentence structure... no sense.

I graduated from a school of 4000 students where maybe a couple hundred kids were truly college-ready.


Yes, the US is broke. Yearly debt is about 102% of GDP. we can't afford to pay the interest on what we owe, let alone the actual total debt itself. It's sort of an unrelated topic, but the shit will hit the fan hard... sometime in our lives.
 
I'm pretty sure Snyder isn't at fault for Highland Park's situation either though. I mean, he hasn't been in office THAT long.

He has been in long enough, and they are under an emergency financial manager(which white districts do not have) which is directly underneath Synder. So, yes he is responsible now.
 
These parents are often working 12-16 hours a day, cooking the meals, etc.
Yeah mine were too, and so where lots of other people I knew growing up.

Unfortunately, they don't feel they have the time to help their children with their homework, as they're doing all they can to feed them and keep a roof over their heads. They can't afford to spend money on things like flash cards.
They can't buy blank note cards and a pen? They can't talk to them and see if they needed help with homework? I'm sorry, but that's still not an excuse. I've known people in situations like you describe and they still were a part of their Childs education.
 
lol.
Nice work Jenny, education editor at Takepart.com.


Getting to the actual letter, though... what a tragedy:


There are a bunch of other letters in the report, each one sadder than the last. Here's another, that I'm transcribing from some pretty poor penmanship:


So sad :(



Other stuff from the report:

Apparently many of the classrooms have no or inadequate heat, so the students and teachers have to keep on their winter clothes (parkas, gloves, etc.) in class. No counselors or vice principals at the schools.

The teachers are worse (I'd imagine it's very hard to attract the good ones). Only 32% of the teachers in the district had a masters or higher, compared to 74-77% elsewhere in Detroit public schools.

One of the classrooms at Barber had over 50 students for the semester, with some students having to sit on the floor or stand at the back of the classroom.

Bathrooms often "Smeared with feces"

A homeless man was able to live and sleep on the facilities without detection by school officials.

Students are prohibited from checking out books from the school library.


And so on. Basically it's a shithole of the worst kind. Face it Edna, these kids have no future, etc.

So the problem is that these kids don't actually go to any schools, but rather go to sheds?

Jesus christ, get your act together Michigan.
 
Yeah mine were too, and so where lots of other people I knew growing up.


They can't buy blank note cards and a pen? They can't talk to them and see if they needed help with homework? I'm sorry, but that's still not an excuse. I've known people in situations like you describe and they still were a part of their Childs education.

Shit parents will forever exist. Schools need to pick up the slack in terms of learning, especially in low income situations. Schools, after school programs, all of that should be more suited to the problems at hand. I honestly don't care at a point if parents are failing their kids, it's our job as a decent fucking society to pick up the slack then. Apparently we can't even make sure kids can read worth a good god damn.
 
What we need is a second FDR.

You can have this if you find a few trillions of free energy (oil) hiding somewhere in America. We were the Saudi Arabia of the world back in the first half of the century. Bountiful natural resources equals bountiful benefits for the peoples of the nation.

With oil becoming more scarce worldwide, with no working alternative of free energy (ie fusion) we need to plan for a global decrease in GDP. Along with that will go services that help the poor and needy etc. Nothing is free, everyone is greedy.

At our core, we are animals that care about our own self preservation when it comes down to the wire. Even with systemic disadvantages in schools, not being able to read is a product of pure laziness. It is a fundamental requirement to survive. Children's shows on PBS played daily have enough knowledge for basic reading and math skills.
 
Shit parents will forever exist. Schools need to pick up the slack in terms of learning, especially in low income situations. Schools, after school programs, all of that should be more suited to the problems at hand. I honestly don't care at a point if parents are failing their kids, it's our job as a decent fucking society to pick up the slack then. Apparently we can't even make sure kids can read worth a good god damn.

It sounds like you're dead seat on excusing parents who are total screw ups. You haven't said anything concrete other than its schools responsibility and we have to do something. Do you have any suggestions based on facts? Do you think simply chucking money at Highland is going to do anything?
 
It sounds like you're dead seat on excusing parents who are total screw ups. You haven't said anything concrete other than its schools responsibility and we have to do something. Do you have any suggestions based on facts? Do you think simply chucking money at Highland is going to do anything?
I'm willing to bet that Highland Park is receiving more money than most schools in that area. For some reason, it's usually the same story....high spending, but tons of waste and most spending going to administration and teacher benefits rather than students.

Edit: That wasn't too hard to find. Highland Park= most spending per student than any school district in Michigan.

http://www.annarbor.com/news/ypsila...istricts-in-the-state-for-per-pupil-spending/

Joining Ypsilanti on the list of top-10 highest-spending school districts were six others that also had budget deficits in 2011. Ypsilanti was ranked 10th on the list, while Highland Park School District in Wayne County was first, spending $19,634 per pupil. Highland Park was appointed a state emergency manager earlier this year.
 
it's our job as a decent fucking society to pick up the slack then. Apparently we can't even make sure kids can read worth a good god damn.

We've deemed it our job as a modern society to provide educational services for everyone. That's great - but you can't force someone to learn, and it shouldn't require great lengths of inspiration to drive someone to want to survive.

As for the parents bit... It's only been the job of parents for 99.9% of human history to pass knowledge down to their children. So if they can't teach them to read and write, they are absolutely to blame for being shit parents. It's embedded into every other animals DNA to teach their offspring the basics of survival, why do we give humans a pass?
 
This is a combination of cultural differences in the ghetto and a low tax base. There is probably little incentive for the kids to even try, and if they do their education is probably sub par. Sad but they will probably grow up and raise kids in the same environment. It's a self perpetuating problem
 
We've deemed it our job as a modern society to provide educational services for everyone. That's great - but you can't force someone to learn, and it shouldn't require great lengths of inspiration to drive someone to want to survive.

As for the parents bit... It's only been the job of parents for 99.9% of human history to pass knowledge down to their children. So if they can't teach them to read and write, they are absolutely to blame for being shit parents. It's embedded into every other animals DNA to teach their offspring the basics of survival, why do we give humans a pass?

Except for 99.9% of our history the parents were NOT teaching the kids how to read and write, but how to make stacks of hay and wood and feed the horses, and get pregnant at 15. Heck, my grandparents were not teaching my parents anything except "I didn't need no school, screw the commies!", and that was 40 years ago!

Parents are not school teachers.
 
Did anyone actually read the complaint? http://www.aclumich.org/sites/default/files/RighttoReadComplaint(1).pdf

Since enrolling at Barber, I.D. has never been assigned to write anything longer than one paragraph.

This is appalling. Kid's that can't spell their own names correctly. The amount of times "the teacher did not provide instruction" turns up is frightening. Yet it's all the fault of their parents right? If it's the fault of the parents then there is no point in having state education.
 
Did anyone actually read the complaint? http://www.aclumich.org/sites/default/files/RighttoReadComplaint(1).pdf



This is appalling. Kid's that can't spell their own names correctly. The amount of times "the teacher did not provide instruction" turns up is frightening. Yet it's all the fault of their parents right? If it's the fault of the parents then there is no point in having state education.

Looks like complete mismanagement from the top down to the teachers. That's why it's under emergency management apparently.
Plenty of blame to go around and parents aren't excused but I don't think they're the big problem.
 
Holy shit. "Portioning out the blame"? Are you kidding me? You really feel it's that necessary to make the "parents are at fault" post immediately after this kind of story?

Poor kids from poorly educated parents in bad neighborhoods are more likely to struggle. No shit. But when institutions completely fail at their stated goals, there's no need to portion out blame. The school is failing, completely, without aberration.

And what about the institutions that helped make their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents poorly educated, contributed to them struggling to find jobs? How quickly do you point to those failings rather then the "parents need to take responsibility" argument?

This shit drives me crazy. For it to be first reply after a terrible story about kids lives being ruined and having no recourse from their schools is just mind blowing. Do you really give that little of a shit about these kids? Is it really that core to your being to find blame in their parents so you can feel a little bit less responsible for contributing to a society where this shit happens? I know you know there are schools doing better for kids in similarly fucked up situations, and yet still you can't help yourself from making this sort of loaded political post in a story where 100% of kids are behind.

You people make me sick.

You are so invested in preserving this mental fiction that there is no systemic or societal problem that disadvantages black people in the United States, that your immediate reaction to a school with these types of failure rates is to blame the kids and blame their parents.

It couldn't possibly be the school, it must be because black kids or black parents are lazy or stupid or don't care about education or bettering themselves. Because that's really what you're talking about when you say "well there's plenty of blame to go around" or some such nonsense. We're not the idiots you think we are.

Great posts. People find it easier to blame the parents, especially when the parents are African-Americans whom they don't identify with, than face the fact that America has pursued a policy of economic and social injustice. The reality is that this school district is not a mistake or an aberration, it is the goal of the economic and political elite of our country. An uneducated permanent underclass increases the economic and political power of the upper class. Republicans and Democrats (via neoliberal economic policy) have brought about this situation by slashing and burning the welfare state.
 
It sounds like you're dead seat on excusing parents who are total screw ups. You haven't said anything concrete other than its schools responsibility and we have to do something. Do you have any suggestions based on facts? Do you think simply chucking money at Highland is going to do anything?

Let's be clear: You're the one offering no solution. By placing the blame on the parents, you're abdicating society's responsibility to improve the education for children.

Bad parents exist because they're uneducated, haven't had successful behavior patterns modeled for them, and are generally overwhelmed by the same stressful environment as their children. How often have you awoken to gun shots? To people screaming outside at 5 AM? To neighbors beating their spouses? To find out that someone you know is dead, or in prison for 30 years? How many prostitutes do you walk by on your way to work today? How much stress are you under because you have no technological skills and your learned speech patterns make you unfit for even call center jobs? Most of these parents have never seen flash cards (when I first met her, my niece's mother didn't know where Austin was, didn't know who the Beatles are). It is absolutely 100% impossible for them to do what you're asking. But society does have the ability to move children into better schools, to create smaller classrooms, to pay more for better teachers and better facilities, and to pay for the research that will help us to better understand exactly what a better teacher and better school really is.

Another personal anecdote: Last night, my niece told my wife and I that she sees pimps and prostitutes all the time. It's just a normal, daily thing. She's seen worse than pimps and prostitutes, I know she has, but it still fucked with my head pretty badly. She can't go outside and play. Most of her friends' parents are drug addicts, violent, and stupid, so she can't (god I hope she can't) go over to their houses. She sees my apartment complex, full of new cars, luxury cars, people walking their dogs, families playing at all times of the day, and it's like a different world for her. At least she gets to see first hand what a moderate amount of success can do. Most kids around her don't even know that experience. And when they have kids, they won't have shit to model for them. They'll bit shitty parents from a shitty neighborhood, just like their parents and grandparents were. There's no magic in this. People don't just magically become good parents.

If you think people can magically overcome everything life throws at them, you're willfully ignorant. We're not masters of our own behavior. We're creatures of habit, of learned behavior. Stress, particularly financial stress, makes us markedly less intelligent and less able to modify even small things in our daily lives. There are a number of studies that show this.

As to people not offering solutions, most probably think the obvious solutions don't even need to be spoken aloud. Better pay for better teachers, better schools built in the district, more funding for after school activities, more funding for preschools. I also support getting rid of terrible schools like this one, bussing kids into better schools (as loaded as that topic is), and fighting teacher's unions on charter schools. I'd even support a heavily regulated voucher system that forbade religious instruction, required certain standards be met, and required schools to bring in students from all backgrounds, all neighbors, all income levels, and all history. At the end of the day, I mostly just want kids to have the ability to get out of these fucked up schools. Ideally I'd like to see universities fund new, highly exclusive educational programs that promised prospective students guaranteed high pay out of college if they work X years, where new research into the psychology and methodology of teaching could be employed. The economics of pay and the work pool require that you can't just increase pay or just increase standards. You have to do both in one creative way, and new educational programs (and not just shitty education masters programs) seem like they could be a part of the answer. I have more thoughts about this.

Hell, even Kosmo alluded to a possible solution by supporting a 7am-7pm charter school. KOSMO!!! And you say we're the ones who aren't proposing anything? I don't think you care as much as you think you do. I think you're annoyed that people put the onus on society for such things. And for that, you're part of the problem.


It's not just the schools. These kids are growing up in crushing poverty. In an environment where drug dealers are common and are controlling large neighborhoods. These kids see hookers every day. They know the gangs out there. They don't have HOPE. They don't believe they're going to be anything more than they are right now and if they DO think that at some point there is at least 12 years of "education" to get that notion out of your head. Years of knowing that your best chance of making something of yourself is getting the hell out of the neighborhood. At some point you learn how to survive and you have to do what you have to do.

Imagine growing up in an environment where many girls in your freshman class are pregnant. Where the majority of your senior class IS pregnant or already has kids. Imagine growing up knowing if you don't get out of there your BEST hope is maybe working as a mechanic's helper in a garage. Or at a grocery store. Or at a gas station. Not as some temporary job, but as a career.

Imagine being poor enough you rely on food stamps and you're STILL being shaken down by the local drug dealer for protection money. Imagine walking down the street to your school and you don't know if you're going to get knifed, shot, beaten, raped, sold into prostitution, etc. Maybe you'll date, and maybe you'll find someone not on drugs that you can build some kind of life with somehow... but maybe they'll be tuned out of the crushing suffocating world they live in because they just can't take it anymore.

Because no matter what, they know and they BELIEVE that their life is exactly what it will always be.

That is the real problem and THAT is what is being fought against.
This is a great post. I disagree with you about where the federal government fits into it all, but it's nice to see this from a libertarian.
 
Great posts. People find it easier to blame the parents, especially when the parents are African-Americans whom they don't identify with, than face the fact that America has pursued a policy of economic and social injustice. The reality is that this school district is not a mistake or an aberration, it is the goal of the economic and political elite of our country. An uneducated permanent underclass increases the economic and political power of the upper class. Republicans and Democrats (via neoliberal economic policy) have brought about this situation by slashing and burning the welfare state.

I agree that this report is appalling and horrible but how is it the fault of the economic and political elite? From the sounds of it the district had quite a bit of funding. In what other way could they have sabotaged the school?
 
He has been in long enough, and they are under an emergency financial manager(which white districts do not have) which is directly underneath Synder. So, yes he is responsible now.

My point was you're acting like he created the situation. I agree that ultimately he's now responsible for fixing the issue but this is a bipartisan problem and I thought you were kind of making a bit of a partisan point there.
 
Let's be clear: You're the one offering no solution. By placing the blame on the parents, you're abdicating society's responsibility to improve the education for children.
The only one in favor of abdicating repsonsibility had been you so far with excusing bad parents for their role in kids failing to lean when it was suggested that they are part of the problem. That's all that was suggested and you freaked out to excuse bad parenting.
 
I agree that this report is appalling and horrible but how is it the fault of the economic and political elite? From the sounds of it the district had quite a bit of funding. In what other way could they have sabotaged the school?
From a different angle, it is ridiculous that the teachers of that school are still employed in any type of teaching capacity beyond school monitor. What keeps them there if not political connections and mandated protections for even the dumbest of them?
 
Great posts. People find it easier to blame the parents, especially when the parents are African-Americans whom they don't identify with, than face the fact that America has pursued a policy of economic and social injustice. The reality is that this school district is not a mistake or an aberration, it is the goal of the economic and political elite of our country. An uneducated permanent underclass increases the economic and political power of the upper class. Republicans and Democrats (via neoliberal economic policy) have brought about this situation by slashing and burning the welfare state.
Oh please stop with the class warfare and conspiracy nonsense. The problems are combination of things which include bad parenting, no matter how much the lack of parental responsibility as a source of the problem bothers you, it can't be ignored with conspiratorial plots as an excuse.
 
Ok, let's assume the parents suck. So what? What does that have to do with the school having crappy students?

If the parents suck then you adjust the schoolwork so that it is done entirely in class. The kid still has to learn so they don't become their parents.

Teacher are with these kids for up to 8 hours every weekday. I cannot grasp how someone can look at the time a child spends in school with so called professionals and then think scores like these are even half the blame of the parents. The school system can and should take that into account. The teachers and education system is largely the problem although it may be for a host of reasons as well.

They clear as day have gotten stagnant to the point of being inert in their duties and should be fired when they reach that point. Funding is not a fact there because they agreed to the salaries that they are paid. So even if they were given papyrus sheets to use in class, they still have the training and skills to teach.
 
Oh please stop with the class warfare and conspiracy nonsense. The problems are combination of things which include bad parenting, no matter how much the lack of parental responsibility as a source of the problem bothers you, it can't be ignored with conspiratorial plots as an excuse.

Again, what's the point of getting an education if you aren't getting an education, which includes learning how to read.
 
I don't know why some people want to focus on the bad parents so much. We can't force parents to be better. We can however try to force schools to be better so that they'll educate better students who grow up to be better parents. So, uh, seems to me that's the logical direction to focus on?
 
I don't know why some people want to focus on the bad parents so much. We can't force parents to be better. We can however try to force schools to be better so that they'll educate better students who grow up to be better parents. So, uh, seems to me that's the logical direction to focus on?

Bootstraps. Always and forever. If your parents didn't provide you with any, well fuck you.
 
What's the point if the person doesn't care in the first place and no one at home does either?

So we shouldn't provide them with better schooling, afterschool programs and community outreach because they got born into a shitty revolving door situation? We shouldn't at least try? We should just let teachers fail at teaching them? We should just let schools fail at providing safe learning environments?
 
There are cities north in Brazil where the kids have to walk more than 5 miles in bad terrain, cross rivers, eat not optimally everyday, and still have better literacy rates than that!
 
So we shouldn't provide them with better schooling, afterschool programs and community outreach because they got born into a shitty revolving door situation? We shouldn't at least try? We should just let teachers fail at teaching them? We should just let schools fail at providing safe learning environments?
We do try and so do teachers. Part of safe learning environments require people to remove those who won't show any desire to learn and only to disrupt. You refuse to accept that and what it entails. Until you do, you should never expect a change.
 
You can have this if you find a few trillions of free energy (oil) hiding somewhere in America. We were the Saudi Arabia of the world back in the first half of the century. Bountiful natural resources equals bountiful benefits for the peoples of the nation.

With oil becoming more scarce worldwide, with no working alternative of free energy (ie fusion) we need to plan for a global decrease in GDP. Along with that will go services that help the poor and needy etc. Nothing is free, everyone is greedy.

You act as if what I suggested would cost an insane amount of money or something. The two wars or Bush tax cuts would be more expensive than this. Probably significantly more so. And there are plenty of developing alternatives for oil. Germany's paving the way.

EDIT - To add to this, that oil comment doesn't make any sense at all since Europe went the same route that America did (arguably much more so) and ended up achieving a quality of life that was on par or better than America as well.


Children's shows on PBS played daily have enough knowledge for basic reading and math skills.
No.
 
What?! Seriously not one kid passed those portions? Fucking hell...

In many schools that are failing like this, they stopped teaching science and social studies because they aren't on the NCLB test.

And also everyone in this topic talking about a 90% illiteracy rate, there is difference between being unable to read ANYTHING and failing the test (which 90% did.)
 
This must be a part of that giant sucking sound Ross Perot was talking about. Pretty sure this is just the worst of the beginning. Brace yourselves.

It really is sad.
 
Per this discussion about responsibility, I really liked this passage from that book I mentioned I was reading earlier, which I just got to after reading further:

I suggest that we hold in mind several dimensions of responsibility, summarized in the dynamic, reciprocal relation between three interrelated types of responsibility; personal and social responsibility, moral and intellectual responsibility, and immediate and ultimate responsibility. Personal responsibility involves the individual's being accountable for her actions and acting in a moral fashion that is helpful to herself and to the members of her family, community, and society. Social responsibility involves the society's exercising collective accountability to its citizens by acting, through agencies (social services, psychological services, and the like), institutions (schools, religious organizations, government, and the like), and spheres (private and public employment and the like) to enhance their well-being, especially the most vulnerable. To speak of personal responsibility without understanding its relationship to the social order is to miscalculate what we may reasonably expect from human beings in a given situation. On the other hand, to speak of social responsibility without factoring in the roles and duties of individuals is to misjudge the extent of accountability we can reasonable expect from our society.

Moral responsibility involves self- and other-regarding behavior that aims to realize the good intentions, and maximize the just actions, of persons and societies. Intellectual responsibility involves the exercise of mental faculty for the purpose of self-development and the development of society. To speak of moral responsibility without understanding its constitutive relation to the intellectual goals, and possibilities, of individuals and societies, is to misjudge what we can reasonably expect from either. To speak of intellectual responsibility without understanding the ethical ideals and moral properties that constitute and govern intellectual pursuit - and the social conditions that make it possible - is to miscalculate the relation of thought to behavior.

Immediate responsibility involves persons and societies acting accountably to address issues, ideas, and problems in the present time and environment. Ultimate responsibility involves persons and societies acting accountably to address issues, ideas, and problems with an eye on their personal and social impact in the long run. These is another meaning as well: Ultimate responsibility involves assigning culpability for actions, and consequences, that may appear to lie with particular individuals but that in fact is determined by larger and perhaps more distant (in time) forces. To speak of immediate responsibility without figuring in ultimate responsibility in both senses is to minimize the role of more distant and daunting factors that shape the choices at hand. To speak of ultimate responsibility, in both senses, without understanding how immediate responsibility may still alter personal and social outcomes is to posit a determinism that dishonors individual effort and social transformation.

These meanings of responsibility should be kept in mind as we make demands for the poor to be more responsible. Too often we fail to give them credit for how they are alreayd being personally and morally responsible, given the conditions they confront in the home, in the neighborhood, in the school and in society. We have at the same time failed to calculate, or to as aggressively demand, social responsibility towards the poor.​

I think it is a good summation of a lot of the points that posters in this topic - kame-sennin, Htown, maybe Gaborn (he might quibble with parts, but I suspect he would agree with the bulk of it), Telosfortelos, etc. - have been arguing in their posts.
 
Would it help the situation if a program was set up that offered to pay you say 2 or 3 thousand dollars if you got a vasectomy or Depo Provera / tubule ligation? Then when the students are older and want are ready for family's they just pay back the money. This may help reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancy in school, give the students that want to improve a little pocket money. And honestly if the student just doesn't `t want to learn or improve them self at least they will not continue the cycle of a broken home/family.

In before: You just trying to Euthanize the POOR! I believe the program should be open to everybody.
 
We need to deal with the kids that dont want to learn in class, spend money more efficiently, the ability to get rid of bad teachers more easily, reward good teachers more, find other sources of funding for schools besides tax dollars, and not banning other sources of funding for schools.
 
So we shouldn't provide them with better schooling, afterschool programs and community outreach because they got born into a shitty revolving door situation? We shouldn't at least try? We should just let teachers fail at teaching them? We should just let schools fail at providing safe learning environments?

So, do you think the teachers just happen to fail at teaching? These kids need some very tough discipline to change this around and I doubt the teachers are given the necessary authority to control these classrooms. We've taken the authority away from the teachers.
 
From a different angle, it is ridiculous that the teachers of that school are still employed in any type of teaching capacity beyond school monitor. What keeps them there if not political connections and mandated protections for even the dumbest of them?

Tenure. It's very hard to fire a teacher.
 
It's going to be a scary future as the gap widens between the educated and the uneducated in America.

It'll be interesting to say the least. There's many ways to get left behind once you are severely under-educated, I guess we'll see sooner than later how extreme it'll get.
 
You are making this a race issue when it is really a socio-economics issue. Illiteracy might not be 90% but these same things happen in poor neighbourhoods here in Canada. Go to a school in a wealthy area of the city? 70-80% of students are meeting provincial standards. Go to a school in a poor area of the city? 20-30% of kids are meeting provincial standards. Being Canada, the poor neighbourhoods are still 75% white kids (especially outside of Toronto and Vancouver), so it has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the parents in either area of the city, and everything to do with the disadvantages that come with poverty.

Being a Canadian as well, I disagree with this train of thought. Obviously class is a big issue, but you can't deny race plays one as well. Just look at natives, do you think the reason for their socioeconomical issues ONLY stem from being in poverty? I can bet you can compare them to some poverty stricken area of mainly white families and I can bet any money that the former will still be more disadvantaged in nearly every category. They go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive.
 
So, do you think the teachers just happen to fail at teaching? These kids need some very tough discipline to change this around and I doubt the teachers are given the necessary authority to control these classrooms. We've taken the authority away from the teachers.

I'm sure the answer is more complicated than: parent's fault, everyone go home.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom