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Dota 2 Beta Thread 2: Real Talk Discouraged [Magnus, Teams, 6.75b, 150+ Shop Items]
- Thread starter Artanisix
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Lol? Terrible opinion is terrible.
You are using a straw man argument to influence your point, but what TB says is technically true. Valve can do just about anything on the front end because they make most of their money on the back end, once you are migrated to their store.
He is really only saying that TF2 and Dota 2 can technically operate at a loss and would still be profitable for valve by forcing you to have their client. And he is just saying that he is scarred of monopolies, he didn't even go into what potentially could happen, just the current path they are taking.
When the DoD lets Delirium have internet again.
It's becoming what it is because people like what Valve is bringing out. And his comment about TF2 not being updated out of their kind heart is what will make people mad. Up to the point of the Mann Co store, you had to idle to collect items, and till then they kept making updates. What's the reasoning behind that?
But yeah, it all falls back on them having you use their client and making them money. So both sides will disagree.
LoftyTheMetroid
Member
Extending from what Grief.exe said, I don't think that's what he's saying. It's not so much that "Valve should make Dota 2 crappier so others can compete", it's just stating his belief that "This is a business model that only a company like Valve could sustain, and not applicable to most other companies. As a result, this locks up a majority of the existing DOTA/MOBA market." A lot of you are taking this and painting this as an attack on Valve/Dota 2 when he's really just saying what a lot of you might already agree with.
And for the record, I also expect Dota 2 to be immensely profitable, but I don't think TB was saying that it wouldn't be, just that it didn't have to be, and that Dota 2 is overall a huge push for Steam expansion. I think this will be true, specifically in the Asian markets (although I don't understand Chinese laws, are they allowed to have Steam there or does it have to go through a Chinese third party...?)
One last thing TB touched on that I agree with is that, unlike, say, Epic's Tim Sweeney, I don't think F2P is the entire future of the industry, and I don't think it will be sustainable industry-wide. It works for certain products and companies in certain amounts (like Dota 2), but I'm worried about how it might eventually affect the market as a whole.
If Valve was really evil about attracting people to Steam, they would give away CS:GO for free. Dota 2's gameplay best fits the F2P model.
Also, as far as I understand, the Chinese version of Dota 2 won't use the Steam client we are accustomed to, but will use the Steam backend to handle updates.
Also, as far as I understand, the Chinese version of Dota 2 won't use the Steam client we are accustomed to, but will use the Steam backend to handle updates.
He sure likes to pretend he knows the opinions of large groups of people or that his fear mongering is the logical point of view. Also TF2 and Dota 2 being loss leaders is retarded. TF2 and OB sold tons and then when it switched to f2p it also made tons of money. He doesnt know wtf a loss leader is. He also assumes that people who want to play shooters or mobas want the kind of shooter or moba Valve is providing. Nevermind his complaining doesnt seem to apply to LoL when that was gobbling the market before Dota 2 even came along. He talks about forcing other devs to do stuff to compete. Well wtf happened to HoN? It went f2p originally cause of LoL with a LoL type pay model.
It sounds like he is fumbling around in the dark trying to understand business. He doesnt like traditional pay models either. Maybe we can pray for the magical indie market to save us or mobile app stores. Oh wait those have big fucking problems too.
LoftyTheMetroid
Member
Right, although it's a combination of a lot of factors as well. You can release a shooter with a price tag since Halo and Call of Duty aren't being offered for free, whereas the same isn't quite true in the MOBA market. Even if Valve wanted to charge for Dota 2, I don't think that was an option. Among many, many other details/reasons.
And again, no one is claiming Valve is being "evil". Not in this particular post, but the responses to TB seem a little on the "overreaction" side.
So, what's this mean? Valve partners with a Chinese company to release "Steem: A Chinese client to interface with Steam"? Is it still marketed as Steam, with Valve still in control of stores/prices/servers/etc.?
EDIT:
I'm glancing through his video again, correct me if I'm wrong, but where does he say TF2 IS a loss leader, or that Dota 2 WILL BE a loss leader? He said that they could be loss leaders and still benefit Valve, which I think might be true.
And what opinions of others is he assuming? The only one I heard was that many LoL players won't move over because of a perceived value investment in LoL, which I also think is true. And I assume the "fear mongering" is him saying he's worried about the long-term repercussions of F2P in the PC market?
Again, correct me if I'm wrong, I was just flipping through the audio real quick.
King of melting, more like it. Tide and Naga were the best players on Zenith.
Zenith doesn't have tide OR naga in their sniper game bro
Exactly.
LINK?!?!?!?!
Edit: Looks like you were spectating. Gonna be tough to find this game.
Schweinehund
Member
What does he mean the end of traditional moba games? He's acting like moba games have been sold at retail for a decade...
WC3 Mod -> Demigod -> Hon -> LoL (F2P)
The genre has been almost free to play from the get go. I don't think LoL will lose a lot of its playerbase just because dota 2 doesn't charge for heroes.
Also wtf at tf2 being used to spread steam... there were quite a few class updates before it went f2p...
WC3 Mod -> Demigod -> Hon -> LoL (F2P)
The genre has been almost free to play from the get go. I don't think LoL will lose a lot of its playerbase just because dota 2 doesn't charge for heroes.
Also wtf at tf2 being used to spread steam... there were quite a few class updates before it went f2p...
Didn't they make more money out of LoL's model than their sell it for $30 model?
As for desperation or whatever, its good for consumers. Competition is good and hopefully Steam has some good competition coming.
The reason they won wasnt some great play by them or that sniper actually carried. It was that Naga and Tide charged up mid rambo style with no ravage and with Lycan, their main source of dps, lagging behind. Zenith didnt win that game, WE threw it.
Can anyone link me to a few essential youtube dota 2 channels which can help a boob like me...
I already have Purge, Dotacinema from the OP...
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfessorFiercE/videos
Schweinehund
Member
Game server not recording stats?
Not getting bp or items.
Not getting bp or items.
"If I'm honest I view Dota 2, once again, as a loss leader for Valve... It's the same for TF2. Why do you think they constantly updated the game? It wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts... Maybe their stuff is anti-competitive. They offer this stuff for free because no one else can compete with it. They know there is no way there is going to be a free game with the quality of Dota 2. Nobody can afford to do that. Valve doesn't have to worry about keeping the lights on in the office."
Sorry for the choice quoting, but I really don't think Totalbiscuit knows what he's talking about. He's outright saying that Valve's practices are anti-competitive and implies this is heavily against consumer interest.
What he doesn't realize, or refuses to acknowledge, is that Valve has been very upfront about the amount of money that TF2 was bringing in the entire process. TF2 was never a loss leader. Sure, it brought many people onto Steam but the game continued to generate revenue from their free updates well before they even made the jump to free-to-play. TB suggests that Valve is cornering the market because they can throw their teams behind these grand projects that would never turn a profit to justify their development even though these projects - by Valve's own admission - turn a large, continuous profit by following this model. Sure, Valve could run them as a loss leader but they aren't. Other companies aren't following these methods because they're aren't feasible. They aren't following because they want to make more money.
And this isn't even touching the large studios who make more bank than Valve like Blizzard/Activision who could easily follow the same model but choose not to.
His ultimate statement: "Dota 2 has the fairest pay model in the business but if anyone else were to do it, would it be a success? I've got to say, I'm not thinking it would be. And I've seen no evidence up to this point for a game to be successful, unless you're Valve, based on micro-transactions."
Well, first HoN and LoL both reported profits going to micro-transactions (so maybe he worded that last statement poorly) but if his assertion is that no one other than Valve can turn a profit using a fair model then how can he say it's unlikely when no one but Valve has attempted it? From the data we have available, the only example of a fair model has been grossly successful.
Unless there are other free-to-play games with fair pricing models I'm not aware of. However, almost all the ones I know, successful or not, sell more than just pure cosmetics.
Edit - Wow, the whole video is actually a large rant and general fear-mongering against Steam and Valve.
Edit - One final thing. TB's argument is further problematic because success in the video game market isn't solely tied to production values. DayZ and Minecraft both show that you can have enormous success without having huge design teams behind them. The barrier of entry into the market is so low that Steam and Valve do not and can not feasibly ever monopolize it.
PillowKnight
Member
You use it on someone you want to kill, they get slowed and die. Use it on squishy supports or heroes you catch alone.
Try out the item in a practice game, the slow is massive.
The Purge inflicts a powerful slow, so making use of the charges to seal kills on fleeing enemies can be well worth consuming them. You'll get more if you upgrade the weapon anyway. More situationally, you may want to Purge a buff off of an enemy (such as with Omniknight's Repel) or kill a particularly nasty summon (such as Warlock's ulti Golem).
maybe all the other people out there who suck at videogames and have fat wives look up to him, iunno
He is quite popular and was a big figure in WoW before moving to SC II shoutcasting.
The mana burn from purge still applies to the illusions as well, right? So, by my understanding, when you net and mirror image with Siren, whoever you caught will be drained of most of their mana by the time they get free that they also won't be able to use most/any of their abilities.
That would explain it.
Applies to melee illusions, yes. Still see it occasionally on ranged heroes (ie Mirana).
I like it on Mirana as a fun item.
usually just go phase boots / jango / manta / mkb though for maximum chase and damage.
2bad bolded is as far as u ever get
Sorry but no. I watched the game in the client, a lot of kills were made in the trilane bottom that wouldn't normally be possible thanks to Sniper's range, shrapnel, and assassinate. There were amazing plays by Chen and Sand King, along with insane burst coming out through Sniper and Invoker. You can try and pin it on lol Naga and Tide but the game was won well before that by Zenith (they had a freakin' 23 minute rax).
SteveWinwood
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