Support NeoGAF

[LoftyTheMetroid]

Edit - Wow, the whole video is actually a large rant and general fear-mongering against Steam and Valve.

Wow, you're right. Honestly, the rest of the video is more damning than anything in that clip segment.

"If I'm honest I view Dota 2, once again, as a loss leader for Valve... It's the same for TF2. Why do you think they constantly updated the game? It wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts... Maybe their stuff is anti-competitive. They offer this stuff for free because no one else can compete with it. They know there is no way there is going to be a free game with the quality of Dota 2. Nobody can afford to do that. Valve doesn't have to worry about keeping the lights on in the office."

Sorry for the choice quoting, but I really don't think Totalbiscuit knows what he's talking about. He's outright saying that Valve's practices are anti-competitive and implies this is heavily against consumer interest.

What he doesn't realize, or refuses to acknowledge, is that Valve has been very upfront about the amount of money that TF2 was bringing in the entire process. TF2 was never a loss leader. Sure, it brought many people onto Steam but the game continued to generate revenue from their free updates well before they even made the jump to free-to-play.

To be fair, I read the TF2 quotes ("It's the same for TF2. Why do you think they constantly updated the game? It wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts...") as being an aside, referring to TF2 before the Mann Store, like Medic/Pyro/Heavy Updates. As you said, Valve made a lot of money from those "free" updates due to publicity and sales, so it wasn't solely out of the "goodness of their hearts". The rest of the video demonstrates he has other irrational views of TF2 and Steam, though.

TB suggests that Valve is cornering the market because they can throw their teams behind these grand projects that would never turn a profit to justify their development even though these projects - by Valve's own admission - turn a large, continuous profit by following this model. Sure, Valve could run them as a loss leader but they aren't.

While I wouldn't call it "anti-competitive" by any means, and I think TB is exaggerating in that regard, I would say Dota 2 is going to pretty much lock down the market, with LoL have its own sub-section.

And I think what TB is saying is that it's irrelevant if Valve is or isn't loss leading with Dota 2, but that, should a miracle product magically manifest itself matching Dota 2 feature-for-feature and Valve couldn't make the same margins in order to compete, Valve would still come out ahead.

Which might be true, but even in that situation I think Valve could maintain its model and come out waaaaay ahead, just because they're Valve and have such a solid fanbase.

Other companies aren't following these methods because they're aren't feasible. They aren't following because they want to make more money.

And this isn't even touching the large studios who make more bank than Valve like Blizzard/Activision who could easily follow the same model but choose not to.

I don't understand. Are you saying that Valve's model is not optimal? Or that Valve chose a model that would make them less money for the sake of the community?

I think this is pretty much the most optimal route to take in this market, and that's because it's such a special market with specific needs.

His ultimate statement: "Dota 2 has the fairest pay model in the business but if anyone else were to do it, would it be a success? I've got to say, I'm not thinking it would be. And I've seen no evidence up to this point for a game to be successful, unless you're Valve, based purely on cosmetic micro-transactions."

Fixed for accuracy.

Well, first HoN and LoL both reported profits going to micro-transactions (so maybe he worded that last statement poorly) but if his assertion is that no one other than Valve can turn a profit using a fair model then how can he say it's unlikely when no one but Valve has attempted it? From the data we have available, the only example of a fair model has been grossly successful.

The full quote addresses the first half of your quote (neither was funded on pure cosmetics). For the second half, as he said, unless you're Valve. So, his statement is accurate for the most part.

It's up to one's opinion how you think this model can be applied mass market, but I personally don't think it will work except under certain conditions and is not something that can be utilized in a widespread manner.

Edit - One final thing. TB's argument is further problematic because success in the video game market isn't solely tied to production values. DayZ and Minecraft both show that you can have enormous success without having huge design teams behind them. The barrier of entry into the market is so low that Steam and Valve do not and can not feasibly ever monopolize it.

I think that's accurate in general, but not for Dota-esque games. Again, I don't see any new games breaking Dota 2's hold on the market once Valve gets the steam engine going.

That would explain it.

EDIT: Nevermind, rereading it, you were probably just commenting on his popularity.

 

[drkOne]

He is really only saying that TF2 and Dota 2 can technically operate at a loss and would still be profitable for valve by forcing you to have their client. And he is just saying that he is scarred of monopolies, he didn't even go into what potentially could happen, just the current path they are taking.

How do you create a monopoly if you don't own things people need?

You won't ever be able to create a monopoly with games. You won't ever force someone to play something they don't want.
Players will put up with a decent amount of shit decisions, but if they don't like a game they just won't throw any money at it, quite simple.
Look at WoW for example, Blizzard had a kinda of "monopoly", but if someone wasn't happy with the game after a patch/expansion they'd just stop playing. Also they never raised the monthlies because they "could", they were already making enough money and they'd just piss off a couple of consumers and taint their image, which wasn't worth the extra money.

If Valve for some reason decided to turn Steam to shit just because they wanted they'd be saying good bye to a lot of future profit. Yes, they can easily make Steam horrible, but at what cost?
Valve likes money, for sure, but they're already printing money and have a ton of happy consumers who will have them printing money for a long time. What can you be afraid of?

TF2 doesn't operate at a loss. It now generates 12 times the profit it did before turning F2P.
I already spent some cash on the Dota 2 store. Between keys, items and tourney passes.
Give someone a good game and the option to pay, and it's likely that they'll pay just to support the developer.

If Valve has a "monopoly" it's because they can give the best product at the best price.
And Riot could give everything but cosmetics for free. It wouldn't make them look so unaware of the genre they're working on… Oh and start putting the money everyone throws them to good use, and not maps 1% of the people play.

I think that's accurate in general, but not for Dota-esque games. Again, I don't see any new games breaking Dota 2's hold on the market once Valve gets the steam engine going.

You can look at this in two ways:
1) Valve employed the man who made DotA what it is and gave it the attention it needed. People who want to play DotA won't be looking elsewhere, because Dota 2 is the "DotAest" game.
2) There's always room for innovation. There are still people playing League because they don't want DotA, they want League.

For me The International was what convinced me that I wanted to play Dota 2. Valve giving the desired attention to the competitive scene, and knowing exactly who they needed playing their game to make it interesting. It was proof that Valve knew exactly what they were doing, even if they were new to the scene.
I think that if Dota 2 is as successful as it is, it's because Valve made the right decisions.

 

[1.09]

one bad game and that's all you remember

typical bzm

inb4 pull easy camp lycan

 

[Lirlond]

Batman is good, but all over the place. I liked it mind.

 

[Tomat]

2-31 W/L record, 6.45% win percent on SSF4AE?

Retirement a possibility? Of course.

 

[Sanjay]

Batman is good, but all over the place. I liked it mind.

It was amazing, shut your mouth you heathen. One of the best trilogies ever made.

 

[dorkimoe]

It was amazing, shut your mouth you heathen. One of the best trilogies ever made.

I'll report back Monday. I expect it to be great.

 

[Artanisix]

I'll report back Monday. I expect it to be great.

spoilers: anne hathaway is hot

 

[Procarbine]

spoilers: anne hathaway is hot

I can confirm that this is true.

 

[HK-47]

Sorry but no. I watched the game in the client, a lot of kills were made in the trilane bottom that wouldn't normally be possible thanks to Sniper's range, shrapnel, and assassinate. There were amazing plays by Chen and Sand King, along with insane burst coming out through Sniper and Invoker. You can try and pin it on lol Naga and Tide but the game was won well before that by Zenith (they had a freakin' 23 minute rax).

And then started losing every teamfight severely and had one ancient tower left. Had they actually been able to ulti combo with lycan there I doubt there was much Zenith could do. Or hell just comboed anywhere. And yes Sand King kept them in the game. But it was starting to not be enough.

 

[pieatorium]

is there a link to a vod for this sniper game please?

 

[skasaha]

yep!

http://www.own3d.tv/itsgosu/video/719929

 

[pieatorium]

cheers

 

[xanavi]

I've got a tiny skin, pm if you want to trade for it.

edit: Gone!

 

[Forkball]

So what's the best way to use Naga's ult? Escaping team battles you're losing? Using it before battles to mess up their combos? It seems like if you don't coordinate it well with your team, it could end up hurting them as well.

 

[Haly]

So what's the best way to use Naga's ult? Escaping team battles you're losing? Using it before battles to mess up their combos? It seems like if you don't coordinate it well with your team, it could end up hurting them as well.

Yes it can, but there are tons of ways to use Naga's ult. As escape, as setup, as chasing, as interrupting, etc.

Just takes practice and awareness. Had a decent game as Naga today, 27340883.

 

[Grief.exe]

Anyone have any Bounty Hunter chests? I have Summer Chests, and any other kind of Chest to trade.

My friend really likes to play BH, want to surprise him when he gets back on Sunday with a couple more Chests.

PM me or add me on steam http://steamcommunity.com/id/Grief_exe/

I'll trade you 2 for 2 Summer Stashes.

PM'd

If all my trades go through tomorrow, then I will be out of chests. Thanks gaf!

 

[Haly]

I'll trade you 2 for 2 Summer Stashes.

 

[bzm]

Yes it can, but there are tons of ways to use Naga's ult. As escape, as setup, as chasing, as interrupting, etc.

Just takes practice and awareness. Had a decent game as Naga today, 27340883.

i caried dat
edit: team abandoned me

 

[Tomat]

Funky Ass Funk

Should be IHL theme.

 

[Anbokr]

It was amazing, shut your mouth you heathen. One of the best trilogies ever made.

YES YES YES, BASED NOLAN TRULY IS PROMETHEUS STEALING FIRE FROM THE GODS FOR US POOR MORTALS.

spoilers: anne hathaway is hot

YES YES YES

Funky Ass Funk

Should be IHL theme.

NO

 

[bzm]

its almost like we need to put bokr on posting time-out every time a new superhero movie comes out

 

[Scratch]

some people, i just don't understand

1-13 TA and 2-7 Pudge have the nerve to call out the team for being bad and to make fun of support for buying wards and courier. i don't even-

Spoiler

it just adds insult to injury that TA was named Uchiha Sasuke

 

[panda21]

woo won another co-op vs easy bots match. watch out dota gaf i'm going to be king of all dotagaf soon.

my exp/min was quite a lot below other peoples, i dont think i understand how to farm yet. will try watching the vids from the op when i have time.

i like playing as treant because i think one of his passives gives everyone on the team a buff, or at least that was what i understood. so even if i suck, by maxing that as quick as i can i'm helping a bit.

only had one person being a dick so far, surprised at how civil people are.

 

[bzm]

woo won another co-op vs easy bots match. watch out dota gaf i'm going to be king of all dotagaf soon.

my exp/min was quite a lot below other peoples, i dont think i understand how to farm yet. will try watching the vids from the op when i have time.

i like playing as treant because i think one of his passives gives everyone on the team a buff, or at least that was what i understood. so even if i suck, by maxing that as quick as i can i'm helping a bit.

only had one person being a dick so far, surprised at how civil people are.

Tree is a pretty bad hero bruh. If you wanna be useful by maxing a passive and sitting in the well (professional hon dreamhack tournament strats) play crystal maiden.

And I've played one bot game for shits and giggles, and we got this pinoy who kept calling haly "bobo" (means stupid) and ragedisconnected at some point. :S

 

[JustinBB7]

only had one person being a dick so far, surprised at how civil people are.

Not that much at stake in a co-op match. Wins/Losses don't count so that helps to reduce that by a lot.

 

[Exuro]

Is there a difference in BP/item drops in coop vs bots?

 

[Orayn]

Is there a difference in BP/item drops in coop vs bots?

There aren't any item drops or BP awarded in co-op against bots.

 

[Exuro]

There aren't any item drops or BP awarded in co-op against bots.

Thought the new patch changed that.

BOTS
- Enabled AFK and leaver penalties for co-op bot matches.
- Re-enabled rewards for co-op bot matches.- Added new stats dropdown feature when spectating!

http://www.dota2.com/news/updates/

 

[Balehead]

Thought the new patch changed that.

Yes, also now you get an abandon from leaving those bot games. There's a warning when the game begins. And I suck at reading.

IG MM BO3: DK vs Orange: http://www.own3d.tv/itsgosu/live/276083

 

[Epix]

Whats up with the huge queue times the last day and a half?

 

[BeesEight]

While I wouldn't call it "anti-competitive" by any means, and I think TB is exaggerating in that regard, I would say Dota 2 is going to pretty much lock down the market, with LoL have its own sub-section.

I do agree with this, too. I can't really see any other project getting a good share since there's nothing in the format that isn't covered by those two with them both being free to play. Other games will have to innovate in the field but with the genre so young and people so inexperienced with its development, I'll be surprised if we see a successful third game for awhile.

And I think what TB is saying is that it's irrelevant if Valve is or isn't loss leading with Dota 2, but that, should a miracle product magically manifest itself matching Dota 2 feature-for-feature and Valve couldn't make the same margins in order to compete, Valve would still come out ahead.

Which might be true, but even in that situation I think Valve could maintain its model and come out waaaaay ahead, just because they're Valve and have such a solid fanbase.

True, Valve could run their model at a loss and still win through the profits from Steam sales alone. Course, that behaviour would be considered dumping, wouldn't it and be a very clear anti-competitive move. This model is going to be very successful and I don't believe it's just because Valve is behind it.

I don't understand. Are you saying that Valve's model is not optimal? Or that Valve chose a model that would make them less money for the sake of the community?

I think this is pretty much the most optimal route to take in this market, and that's because it's such a special market with specific needs.

I think Valve's model is the optimal one but that it doesn't generate as obvious a revenue as selling map-packs or additional weapons or other DLC. One of the popular multiplayer shooters (Battlefield maybe?) sells map packs that splinter the player base between those that can and can not afford it thus necessitating players buying the DLC. That's an obvious revenue generator whereas if they kept their sales to purely cosmetic features and gave the map packs for free, investors would think that was a waste of money. Though I think TF2 demonstrates that model is also profitable.

It's up to one's opinion how you think this model can be applied mass market, but I personally don't think it will work except under certain conditions and is not something that can be utilized in a widespread manner.

I guess that's what ultimately it comes down to. I think it could work, but without any company stepping up to the plate, we'll never know. The assertion that 'this only works for Valve' will only be true if Valve are the only ones to do it. I tried explaining it above, but the typical microtransaction model makes obvious profit whereas free support and cosmetics sounds like a business disaster if it weren't for the evidence provided by Valve themselves.

EDIT: Nevermind, rereading it, you were probably just commenting on his popularity.

Yeah, the rest about him personally is that I'd never heard of him.

spoilers: anne hathaway is hot

Yeah, she really pulled it off for someone with huge eyes and an oblong face.

Good movie. Not Nolan's best, but fairly competently done.

Thought the new patch changed that.

http://www.dota2.com/news/updates/

The bot games I've played have rewarded neither drops nor BP.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yes, also now you get an abandon from leaving those bot games. There's a warning when the game begins. And I suck at reading.

IG MM BO3: DK vs Orange: http://www.own3d.tv/itsgosu/live/276083

Is there any way to disable the abandonment thing? What if I just want to start up a solo game and fuck around with a new character for twenty minutes?

 

[Balehead]

Is there any way to disable the abandonment thing? What if I just want to start up a solo game and fuck around with a new character for twenty minutes?

You can still make those custom bot games (Create Lobby) with you + bots against bots, how ever you like. No penalties there, penalties are in the "Find a CO-OP Bot Match" games with the matchmaking function.

 

[The Technomancer]

You can still make those custom bot games (Create Lobby) with you + bots against bots, how ever you like. No penalties there, penalties are in the "Find a CO-OP Bot Match" games with the matchmaking function.

Ahhhh, gotcha

 

[panda21]

Is there any way to disable the abandonment thing? What if I just want to start up a solo game and fuck around with a new character for twenty minutes?

I don't think that happens if you make it passworded or you are solo or something. When I did that it said 'game is safe to leave' when I went to quit

 

[Guru-Guru]

DK is looking pretty bad....

 

[panda21]

Tree is a pretty bad hero bruh. If you wanna be useful by maxing a passive and sitting in the well (professional hon dreamhack tournament strats) play crystal maiden.

And I've played one bot game for shits and giggles, and we got this pinoy who kept calling haly "bobo" (means stupid) and ragedisconnected at some point. :S

But I like being the big tree dude guess my search for a hero to main rages on

 

[BeesEight]

But I like being the big tree dude guess my search for a hero to main rages on

Don't listen to BZM. Treant is good.

 

[bzm]

Don't listen to BZM. Treant is good.

just dispensing some high tier advice u no?
coaching is 30USD/hr pm me

 

[Guru-Guru]

Orange dominated game 1. I hope the second game is closer...That TA was pretty damn good--it was my first time seeing TA in a pro match (haven't watched Dota 2 matches for a week or so).

Only 1 week until I get home back to Canada, and more importantly, back to to my PC that can play Dota 2. I didn't bring my computer with me on exchange to Japan (bought my shitty netbook instead), as I thought it would be better to learn Japanese and shit, instead of play Dota 2 all day. Anyway, I hope to play matches with some of Dota-GAF--I don't post in this thread much, but have been lurking it foreveeeeer. Once I can actually play Dota 2 I'll definitely post a lot more in this thread!

 

[BeesEight]

just dispensing some high tier advice u no?
coaching is 30USD/hr pm me

That's a steal of a deal. I'll send you a detailed list of my schedule and hopefully you can find some time to squeeze me in.

 

[Lionheart1337]

DK....

 

[Balehead]

DK got stomped hard.

 

[Island]

Is there somewhere that lists a DOTA 1/LoL/HoN/DOTA 2 naming conversion?

For example: Is leshrac the SK or something? Or Nasus from LoL does he have a DOTA 2 counterpart?

 

[la_briola]

I've got a tiny skin, pm if you want to trade for it.

Check your PMs.

 

[x3r0123]

ehome raping

 

[RukusProvider]

Really want one of these teams to drop out so Mouz can make it in. They have been doing great for a while now.

 

[Schweinehund]

tree ent is bad -> has highest win rate (59%).

 

[Island]

Also what is an average win %? A low (shit tier) percent? Epic/pro tier? Currently on a loss streak, almost seems like the game wants to match me with noobs and yet the other team is stacked with teamspeak clans that coordinate perfectly.