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[BeautifulMemory]

It's a rule of screenwriting. You don't hamfist a twist into your plot out of left field, it's pedestrian as fuck.

There are hints throughout. Her accent and her particular wording of balance that mirrors her father's, not to mention it is mentioned throughout the movie that Tate was insistent on meeting with Bruce Wayne before they finally met

 

[Tookay]

It's a rule of screenwriting. You don't hamfist a twist into your plot out of left field, it's pedestrian as fuck.

But it wasn't hamfisted. A good portion of the dialogue in the pit revolved around her character escaping the pit and how Bane was her protector. It just wasn't put into context until later.

There are problems with Talia's existence (and her acting, sorry Cotillard), but the twist itself wasn't nearly as out-of-left-field as you thought.

 

[Sorcerer]

I was wondering about the connection between Talia and Bane.

When Bane is waiting for Commisoner Gordon in the sewers we see a shot of him squatting, bareback to the audience, was his back full of scars, or was I imagining it?

Is this where we can connect the dots between Talia and Bane, the scars?

Forgive me if my imagination is playing tricks on me.

 

[cajunator]

mother of GOD I NEVER REALIZED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOLY SHIT..

 

[WJD]

So many random actors from other shows/movies playing little bit parts in this.

I saw Bellick from Prison Break, one of the Russian terrorists from 24 season 5, the secretary of defence from 24, the gay guy from I Love You Man and a few more I'm probably forgetting.

Lots of "oh shit it's that guy" moments.

 

[Solo]

I thought it was only shown that Alfred knows Bruce is still alive?

Its my opinion that ALL 5 of the people who know Bruce is Bats know he is alive. Heck, for 4 of the 5, it isn't opinion, its FACT:

- Selina was with Bruce at the cafe
- Alfred saw Bruce at the cafe
- Gordon knew because Bruce fixed the bat symbol
- Lucious knew because The Bat's autopilot was fixed

Blake knowing isn't fact, but I think there is MORE than a strong case to be made for him also knowing.

 

[Wingfan19]

The only foreshadowing as such as the rather clunky scene where we see her scar.

Otherwise we are given no indication that she isn't on the level until she stabs Bruce.

The other thing (which my friend pointed out to me) was that it was her truck that was supposed to have the bomb in it, when in reality it was empty.

 

[harSon]

Gordon really suffered. Almost as much as Bruce did. Dude had to live a lie for 8 years, lead a manhunt for a man he knew was innocent, eulogize a man he knew was a murderous psychopath who tried to murder his family, lost said family, was ravaged by Bane, etc.

He was so goddamn happy though when he found out Bruce was alive.

He also has to live with the fact that his chastising of that one officer/detective (forgot his name) was directly responsible for his death.

I was quite bothered how the above death, and Banes, were pretty much glossed over. Actually, glossed over is being extremely generous. There's no reason your larger than life comic book villain should die the way Bane did.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

It's a rule of screenwriting. You don't hamfist a twist into your plot out of left field, it's pedestrian as fuck.

Fuck no. Regarding that rule of screenwriting, watch the movie again. It's alluded in many scenes, subtly. Do you really need them to foreshadow it so much so that you could see it a mile away?

 

[ProfessorLobo]

My only big qualm with the ending is the decision to show Bruce. I thought it was kind of hammy - I would have preferred it if the film just cut at Alfred's smile and onto the next scene.

Yeah that was way too on the nose.

 

[Messypandas]

Gordon really suffered. Almost as much as Bruce did. Dude had to live a lie for 8 years, lead a manhunt for a man he knew was innocent, eulogize a man he knew was a murderous psychopath who tried to murder his family, lost said family, was ravaged by Bane, etc.

He was so goddamn happy though when he found out Bruce was alive.

Yeah to be honest the true hero of the series. I hope he got visitation rights

 

[soul creator]

this first part of BB is basically an American Ninja movie

Michael Dudikoff would be proud

 

[BigJonsson]

When she seems so eager to activate the reactor
When she is so conveniently put in charge of Wayne Enterprises and I didn't buy that the plan was for Dagget to get the company, he seemed like a major pawn

 

[Mr. Fix]

Even the dude at the bank in TDK got a final line. :/

 

[Babalu.]

The other thing (which my friend pointed out to me) was that it was her truck that was supposed to have the bomb in it, when in reality it was empty.

thats righhhhtt! She was the one that tested the truck to see if it had the radiation(bomb) so thats why when they went to disarm it, it was the wrong truck.

i need to watch this again.

 

[Solo]

Even the dude at the bank in TDK got a final line. :/

YOU AND YA FRIENDS AY' DEAAAAD

 

[Tookay]

Yeah that was way too on the nose.

See the discussion in the last page or two. We really didn't need another Inception-esque ending. I've already seen enough people confused over basic plot stuff.

 

[(._.)]

I wonder if there are people out there who think that Rachel is not the same person from the first movie? That actress change probably blew their minds.

the actress change blew my mind but I knew they were the same character. I didn't even know they switched her out until I was watching TDK opening weekend. wondering for the entire movie how katie Holmes became so haggard between the two movies.

 

[harSon]

But it wasn't hamfisted. A good portion of the dialogue in the pit revolved around her character escaping the pit and how Bane was her protector. It just wasn't put into context until later.

There are problems with Talia's existence (and her acting, sorry Cotillard), but the twist itself wasn't nearly as out-of-left-field as you thought.

That's not foreshadowing. The back story was forced onto Bane's lap through the narrative, refusing the audience the ability to deduce that something with Miranda was not right.

Justifying the twist after the fact doesn't change the fact that it was lazily handled.

 

[Plasticine]

The only foreshadowing as such as the rather clunky scene where we see her scar.

Otherwise we are given no indication that she isn't on the level until she stabs Bruce.

There's a few subtle things that allude to it. When Daggett confronts Bane over Miranda Tate taking over the board, Bane assures him that everything is going according to plan. I'm also pretty sure you have Miranda talking about restoring balance.

 

[Solo]

In thinking about it, since we now are aware that Miranda is Talia and knew who Bruce really was, her picking up Rachel's picture and asking Bruce about it was her intentionally trying to hurt Bruce.

 

[WJD]

There's a few subtle things that allude to it. When Daggett confronts Bane over Miranda Tate taking over the board, Bane assures him that everything is going according to plan. I'm also pretty sure you have Miranda talking about restoring balance.

And the change into weird clothes before the reveal.

 

[BigJonsson]

There's a few subtle things that allude to it. When Daggett confronts Bane over Miranda Tate taking over the board, Bane assures him that everything is going according to plan. I'm also pretty sure you have Miranda talking about restoring balance.

+1

Thats when it clicked for me that she was going to be a villain and probably Talia since Bane was working for the League of Shadows

 

[zethren]

It's a rule of screenwriting. You don't hamfist a twist into your plot out of left field, it's pedestrian as fuck.

It wasn't entirely out of left field though.

Tate spoke on numerous occasions about "restoring balance", Bruce noticed a strange scar, and Bane on at least a few occasions picked her out of a crowd. He ordered a henchmen "Bring her to me" for seemingly no reason.

Even something she said gave something odd away. When they were all at the reactor and Fox refused to help activate it, she said: "They'll just kill you and him and all you'll do is slow him down." Okay, why would he just kill Fox and the other board member? Why not her as well?

Also when the street brawl at the end was going on, she was just staring outside the window with an almost insidious glare.

Honestly, she was getting rather suspicious throughout the second half of the movie, and when it was revealed that she was Talia I was surprised but I didn't feel like it was out of left field once I started piecing it all together.

To make a previously good character become a villain "out of left field" as you are talking about would be like revealing that Alfred was evil all along. There were bread crumbs to pick up on with Tate.

 

[Lonestar]

He also has to live with the fact that his chastising of that one officer/detective (forgot his name) was directly responsible for his death.

I was quite bothered how the above death, and Banes, were pretty much glossed over. Actually, glossed over is being extremely generous. There's no reason your larger than life comic book villain should die the way Bane did.

He shouldn't. The city's facing imminent death. If you have to stand up and fight for the chance to live, um...you do so.

Not to mention, Foley's Death is his own fault, I.E. "Forget those bank robbers we started chasing, lets get The Batman! They drove right past Bane...

 

[DMczaf]

In thinking about it, since we now are aware that Miranda is Talia and knew who Bruce really was, her picking up Rachel's picture and asking Bruce about it was her intentionally trying to hurt Bruce.

Did someone figure out what the scar meant?

 

[Mr. Fix]

There's a few subtle things that allude to it. When Daggett confronts Bane over Miranda Tate taking over the board, Bane assures him that everything is going according to plan. I'm also pretty sure you have Miranda talking about restoring balance.

I kinda pieced it together when Bruce had no choice but to ask her to take care of the company. Perfect plan.

 

[Nuklear]

I just got back from the theater and this is the best movie I've seen all year. It is so marvelous the way Nolan has added all the characters from the Batman franchise without turning it into villain overload that so many superhero movies suffer from when they get this deep in a trilogy. Hathaway as Catwoman was perfect and my only gripe was there wasn't enough of her and Batman together. They had pretty great chemistry when they were together. Bain was built up great and I loved the voice of his but it was hard to tell at times what he was saying. That's about my only gripe with the movie.

This is the greatest superhero trilogy ever without a doubt.

 

[harSon]

There's a few subtle things that allude to it. When Daggett confronts Bane over Miranda Tate taking over the board, Bane assures him that everything is going according to plan. I'm also pretty sure you have Miranda talking about restoring balance.

I don't recall that?

The only things I remember from that scene is Daggett being mistaken as to whose the boss in that situation, and Bane putting him in his place subsequently.

Assuring Daggett that everything is going to plan, ie. justifying Daggett's misguided bravado, would have been out of character and counter productive to the scene.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

It wasn't entirely out of left field though.

Tate spoke on numerous occasions about "restoring balance", Bruce noticed a strange scar, and Bane on at least a few occasions picked her out of a crowd. He ordered a henchmen "Bring her to me" for seemingly no reason.

Even something she said gave something odd away. When they were all at the reactor and Fox refused to help activate it, she said: "They'll just kill you and him and all you'll do is slow him down." Okay, why would he just kill Fox and the other board member? Why not her as well?

Also when the street brawl at the end was going on, she was just staring outside the window with an almost insidious glare.

Honestly, she was getting rather suspicious throughout the second half of the movie, and when it was revealed that she was Talia I was surprised but I didn't feel like it was out of left field once I started piecing it all together.

To make a previously good character become a villain "out of left field" as you are talking about would be like revealing that Alfred was evil all along. There were bread crumbs to pick up on with Tate.

*high fives*

This. I was just about to type it out.

 

[duderon]

The only foreshadowing as such as the rather clunky scene where we see her scar.

Otherwise we are given no indication that she isn't on the level until she stabs Bruce.

There was also the scene when Tate is helping Gordon tag the truck with the GPS tracker. She intentionally signals one of the trucks without the nuke and then out of nowhere Bane's men surround them. I thought that was pretty obvious that Tate helped orchestrate Gordon's capture. It is kinda fishy the first time you watch, but the second time it's obvious that she was tricking Gordon and crew.

 

[Solo]

Did someone figure out what the scar meant?

I need a second viewing. Did something happen to the child Bane (who we later find out is actually Talia) that might have resulted in that scar? You could say it was a LoS branding, but we saw no such thing in BB.

 

[Cloudy]

Did someone figure out what the scar meant?

In the flashback at the pit, I think she was injured before Bane pushed her to safety

 

[thecouncil]

But it wasn't hamfisted. A good portion of the dialogue in the pit revolved around her character escaping the pit and how Bane was her protector. It just wasn't put into context until later.

There are problems with Talia's existence (and her acting, sorry Cotillard), but the twist itself wasn't nearly as out-of-left-field as you thought.

she was the one that said it was a good idea for them to give Bane the bomb.

a lot of the clues were there, you just dont put them together until the end.

it also all ties into the "misdirection", etc. aspect of the league of shadows.

 

[(._.)]

I want to see parts from it again but the movie was too long so IDk if I can sit through it again.

 

[Sorcerer]

You know no one mentions that Bale and Holmes are incredible method actors.

I mean there performances as children in BB was so realistic I almost believed those were real children.

 

[Mr. Fix]

The only things I remember from that scene is Daggett being mistaken as to whose the boss in that situation, and Bane putting him in his place subsequently.

I loved that line. The other being "And you think that gives you power?". I forgot the exact wording on that though. Awesome exchange.

 

[Reagan's BR]

Its my opinion that ALL 5 of the people who know Bruce is Bats know he is alive. Heck, for 4 of the 5, it isn't opinion, its FACT:

- Selina was with Bruce at the cafe
- Alfred saw Bruce at the cafe
- Gordon knew because Bruce fixed the bat symbol
- Lucious knew because The Bat's autopilot was fixed

Blake knowing isn't fact, but I think there is MORE than a strong case to be made for him also knowing.

How many times have you explained this? I think it should be quoted on every page.

 

[Messofanego]

The ending is, in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, a copout. It's the end of one of the biggest plot and emotional throughlines in the whole trilogy. When will Gotham no longer need Batman? Will Bruce ever be able to let go of Batman and the past? Will Bruce ever get a chance at redemption and a real life?

From BB:

Rachel Dawes: But then I found out about your mask.
Bruce Wayne: Batman's just a symbol, Rachel.
Rachel Dawes: [Rachel touches Bruce's face] No, *this* is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe some day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.

From TDK:

Rachel Dawes: Dear Bruce. I need to be honest and clear. I'm going to marry Harvey Dent. I love him, and I want to spend the rest of my life with him. When I told you that if Gotham no longer needed Batman we could be together, I meant it. But now I'm sure the day won't come when *you* no longer need Batman. I hope it does; and if it does I will be there, but as your friend. I'm sorry to let you down. If you lose your faith in me, please keep your faith in people. Love, now and always, Rachel.

TDKR provided an incredible ending to all of this. That final Bruce/Alfred shot was the climax of the emotional core of the whole series. The catharsis.

Quoted For Truth.

 

[Solo]

How many times have you explained this? I think it should be quoted on every page.

Far more times than I should have to. It's especially distressing since all of this happens IN THE FINAL FEW MINUTES of the film. Seriously, did everyone just nod off at the end?

 

[demosthenes]

There was also the scene when Tate is helping Gordon tag the truck with the GPS tracker. She intentionally signals one of the trucks without the nuke and then out of nowhere Bane's men surround them. I thought that was pretty obvious that Tate helped orchestrate Gordon's capture. It is kinda fishy the first time you watch, but the second time it's obvious that she was tricking Gordon and crew.

Oh wow, didn't think about that

Far more times than I should have to. It's especially distressing since all of this happens IN THE FINAL FEW MINUTES of the film. Seriously, did everyone just nod off at the end?

And we want Nolan to have more faith in his audience :lol :lol

 

[jakncoke]

I hate how they made you think he was killed then did he bs thing to make him alive. Should of just left him off dead.

 

[Lonestar]

There was also the scene when Tate is helping Gordon tag the truck with the GPS tracker. She intentionally signals one of the trucks without the nuke and then out of nowhere Bane's men surround them. I thought that was pretty obvious that Tate helped orchestrate Gordon's capture. It is kinda fishy the first time you watch, but the second time it's obvious that she was tricking Gordon and crew.

This reminds me, if she's the one that marked the truck (before they get captured), then that's the reason that the 1st truck Gordon goes to at the end is empty. She marked the wrong truck!

 

[Korey]

Fuck no. Regarding that rule of screenwriting, watch the movie again. It's alluded in many scenes, subtly. Do you really need them to foreshadow it so much so that you could see it a mile away?

It's not alluded to at all. Literally nobody I saw with it saw anything like that coming.

It's not that they should foreshadow the twist, it's that there was nothing indicating that Bane wasn't the mastermind and that there was someone else pulling the strings. There was nothing like that. In fact, the twist basically destroys Bane as a character:

Does anyone think that the reveal that the kid from the dungeon is Talia completely invalidates Bane as a character?

His motivations, background story, etc. is completely destroyed by that twist. At that moment, you now have no idea who Bane is or why he's doing what he's doing other than being the real villain's boyfriend.

He wasn't really born in darkness or anything like that, he was just a prisoner that helped Talia when her mom was killed. His background is really vague. Even the thing with his mouth injury is vague. He was "excommunicated" from the league for loving Talia, not because he was too dangerous or whatever you'd believed up to that point.

The face shot of Tom Hardy in the dungeon cements Bane as just being a random, normal guy. He wasn't particularly oppressed by society or anything like that. It's just really awkward and there's a huge disconnect with everything he does in the movie.

Oh yea, and addressing the part about being born in darkness. I just read more about Bane and apparently he was born in the prison.

But the disconnect is still there, because throughout the entire movie, the "born in darkness" thing was linked to the kid they kept showing. Once that kid is revealed to be Talia, Bane's background is a complete blank. Yea, apparently he was "also born in darkness" but you don't know for sure from the movie.

So my point still stands. Talia's reveal breaks Bane's character.

 

[BigJonsson]

You know no one mentions that Bale and Holmes are incredible method actors.

I mean there performances as children in BB was so realistic I almost believed those were real children.

lol what?

 

[Vyer]

Things that let you know about Talia before the twist:

- the scar
- she tags the wrong truck
- refuses to leave when Gordon is putting team together to tag truck
- Bane pulls her from Gordon's group before exile
- positioning herself to be chosen as counter to Taggart by the board
- snitches on agents, they get caught by Bane ("they must have someone inside!")


It was set up all movie long

 

[Solideliquid]

Its my opinion that ALL 5 of the people who know Bruce is Bats know he is alive. Heck, for 4 of the 5, it isn't opinion, its FACT:

- Selina was with Bruce at the cafe
- Alfred saw Bruce at the cafe
- Gordon knew because Bruce fixed the bat symbol
- Lucious knew because The Bat's autopilot was fixed

Blake knowing isn't fact, but I think there is MORE than a strong case to be made for him also knowing.

How is Bruce alive at the end?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

The ending is, in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, a copout. It's the end of one of the biggest plot and emotional throughlines in the whole trilogy. When will Gotham no longer need Batman? Will Bruce ever be able to let go of Batman and the past? Will Bruce ever get a chance at redemption and a real life?

From BB:

Rachel Dawes: But then I found out about your mask.
Bruce Wayne: Batman's just a symbol, Rachel.
Rachel Dawes: [Rachel touches Bruce's face] No, *this* is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe some day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.

From TDK:

Rachel Dawes: Dear Bruce. I need to be honest and clear. I'm going to marry Harvey Dent. I love him, and I want to spend the rest of my life with him. When I told you that if Gotham no longer needed Batman we could be together, I meant it. But now I'm sure the day won't come when *you* no longer need Batman. I hope it does; and if it does I will be there, but as your friend. I'm sorry to let you down. If you lose your faith in me, please keep your faith in people. Love, now and always, Rachel.

TDKR provided an incredible ending to all of this. That final Bruce/Alfred shot was the climax of the emotional core of the whole series. The catharsis.

Agreed.

And you also find the same theme running through the interactions between Alfred and Bruce in the movies. Not bringing a proper closure to that...would have just sucked.

 

[Messypandas]

so in retrospect, everyones favourite moment from the series?

"You thought we could be decent men in an indecent time"

The mood, the unbelievable score, the lighting, the hopeless sense of dread. Everything so perfectly surmised the loftier ideas in the comic in this one scene. And Eckart was the unsung hero of TDK

 

[Solo]

How is Bruce alive at the end?

Read my post you quoted again. Specifically the Lucious part.