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[Christine]

The abortion / murder equivalence breaks down for me when you look at the prescribed legal consequences for those who murder. If they are truly one and the same thing, failing to imprison women who abort would be an injustice. What quality can make their murder more deserving of forgiveness than other murders, when we take as axiomatic that they are one and the same?

So that's clearly ridiculous. It should be prima facie obvious that abortion isn't murder, because murder is always a homicide that society chooses to legally condemn and punish. That's the definition of what murder is.

An abortion is at worst legal homicide. I would even argue that it can be a morally correct homicide.

However, I've long lost any concern for moral objections to abortion. It's an intractable debate that hasn't budged in decades, an impasse where neither side will ever give ground. It distracts attention away from the fact that control over the creation of new people is an incredibly valuable political and economic resource, which is probably the real reason we're fighting a battle that should have been over forty years ago or more.

The people who possess functioning uteruses will always win back control over if and when they are used, no matter how many times it is usurped. Pro-life can never win out in the long run. It's a defunct position and ought to be abandoned.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

It seems like on debates such as these the only acceptable opinions are either extreme A or extreme B. None is allowed to have a C that is mixed from A or B, for example.

In my opinion, if the baby--or "fetus" or "potential human" for some of you--is conceived due to deliberate actions of two capable adults, then I always in the line of thought that those two adults should take responsibility about the result of their action. To deliberately terminate something that was born due to their action out of fear of responsibility is a terribly selfish thing to commit. And yes, there are a lot of people who do this just for the pleasure of intercourse but then doesn't want to commit to the responsibility that may ensue due to the enjoying those pleasure of intercourse when it happens. "Accidents" are part of those responsibility: if you are not ready to take responsibility for the possibility of "accidents", then refrain yourself from doing something that may result in that "accidents."

However, in the case of rape/forced intercourse or the mother being endangered, I see no reason to refuse abortion as an alternative to be taken.

That's my opinion anyways.

The two opinions are really pro-choice or pro-life. You can then discuss what the arbitrary limit should be if you are pro-choice, or perhaps include exceptions (like with rape or endangerment of the mother) if you are pro-life - but I consider these to primarily be stances on legislation of abortion.

You are kinda talking about what you think is just and unjust, good and bad, but does still sound like you would accept pro-choice legislation and just morally condemn people who have an abortion because they don't want to undergo a pregnancy/don't want a kid at this stage/etc.

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

"Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be DEAD soldiers"

 

[SquiddyCracker]

However, I've long lost any concern for moral objections to abortion. It's an intractable debate that hasn't budged in decades, an impasse where neither side will ever give ground. It distracts attention away from the fact that control over the creation of new people is an incredibly valuable political and economic resource, which is probably the real reason we're fighting a battle that should have been over forty years ago or more.

The people who possess functioning uteruses will always win back control over if and when they are used, no matter how many times it is usurped. Pro-life can never win out in the long run. It's a defunct position and ought to be abandoned.

Agreed.
It is a waste of energy to debate around abortion.

Even if we make it illegal, history will just repeat itself and we will end up with another Roe v Wade.

Only we'll have needlessly caused numerous women to die from unsafe abortions.

 

[Emitan]

Is Duffy calling Democrats people who run around murdering left and right?

Does he think his arguments will be taken seriously with such a radical and extreme opinion?

 

[CLEEK]

Arguing that a fetus isn't a human being is just plain incorrect.

But it's not incorrect. It might be against your own views, but there is nothing factaully incorrect about it.

Any anyway, a foetus develops around 9 weeks after fertilisation. The first 8 weeks the fertilised egg is a zygote - just a ball of dividing cells.

Are the pro-foetus-rights people happy for abortions to occur before 9 weeks?

 

[Laughing Banana]

The two opinions are really pro-choice or pro-life. You can then discuss what the arbitrary limit should be if you are pro-choice, or perhaps include exceptions (like with rape or endangerment of the mother) if you are pro-life - but I consider these to be stances on legislation first and most.
You are kinda talking about what you think is just and unjust, good and bad, but does still sound like you would accept pro-choice legislation and just morally condemn people who have an abortion because they don't want to undergo a pregnancy/don't want a kid at this stage/etc.

I don't know, it's pretty simple I think. Like I said, if it's the case of forced intercourse/rape or the mother's life being endangered, then I have zero problems of abortion being performed if the lady wishes it so. In fact, I think that anyone who refuses to do it in such cases as not a good person.

However, if the baby/fetus is conceived due to two responsible adults engaging in sexual activities willingly? Then my position is take responsibility for your own actions. If you are not ready to bear responsibility, then do not do it because it will spell trouble for everyone involved.

I view sex as something that must be done responsibly, with the two people involved fully aware of all the possibilities that it may cause and be ready to bear responsibility for anything that may happen due to it. I don't see how my opinion to be unreasonable.

 

[Emitan]

I don't know, it's pretty simple I think. Like I said, if it's the case of forced intercourse/rape or the mother's life being endangered, then I have zero problems of abortion being performed if the lady wishes it so. In fact, I think that anyone who refuses to do it in such cases as not a good person.

However, if the baby/fetus is conceived due to two responsible adults engaging in sexual activities willingly? Then my position is take responsibility for your own actions. If you are not ready to bear responsibility, then do not do it because it will spell trouble for everyone involved.

I view sex as something that must be done responsibly, with the two people involved fully aware of all the possibilities that it may cause and be ready to bear responsibility for anything that may happen due to it. I don't see how my opinion to be unreasonable.

And when protection fails?

 

[Nameless]

Republicans want Obama out of office. The republicans need the Christian Right to get Obama out of office. The GOP Presidential candidate isn't Christian. Solution: take an extreme stance on the most polarizing wedge issue in existence.

They're willing to wear their ignorance and inhumane lust for power on their sleeve if it means rallying the core of their base.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I don't know, it's pretty simple I think. Like I said, if it's the case of forced intercourse/rape or the mother's life being endangered, then I have zero problems of abortion being performed if the lady wishes it so. In fact, I think that anyone who refuses to do it in such cases as not a good person.

However, if the baby/fetus is conceived due to two responsible adults engaging in sexual activities willingly? Then my position is take responsibility for your own actions. If you are not ready to bear responsibility, then do not do it because it will spell trouble for everyone involved.

I view sex as something that must be done responsibly, with the two people involved fully aware of all the possibilities that it may cause and be ready to bear responsibility for anything that may happen due to it. I don't see how my opinion to be unreasonable.

Then you are pro-life but accept exceptions for rape/endangerment of the mother's life, if you think that legislation should reflect your views.

There are a lot of different views on sex, so it's important to keep in mind that what one person considers to be responsible can be seen as irresponsible to someone else. Even if you slack when it comes to birth control, and get yourself pregnant, I wouldn't want that person to become a parent. They've already shown themselves incapable of acting responsibly when it comes to sex, so why would I trust them with one of the biggest responsibilities in life?

If they don't slack with birth control, then should really their parenthood be determined by the failure rate of their particular form of birth control?
I personally disagree, I don't see why one should "punish" them (and it is a punishment as you are removing a choice, and control over their body) for acting responsible.

 

[CLEEK]

And when protection fails?

The would-be mother should to the responsible thing and throw herself down some stairs or sit responsibly on a coat hanger.

 

[Veezy]

I don't know, it's pretty simple I think. Like I said, if it's the case of forced intercourse/rape or the mother's life being endangered, then I have zero problems of abortion being performed if the lady wishes it so. In fact, I think that anyone who refuses to do it in such cases as not a good person.

However, if the baby/fetus is conceived due to two responsible adults engaging in sexual activities willingly? Then my position is take responsibility for your own actions. If you are not ready to bear responsibility, then do not do it because it will spell trouble for everyone involved.

I view sex as something that must be done responsibly, with the two people involved fully aware of all the possibilities that it may cause and be ready to bear responsibility for anything that may happen due to it. I don't see how my opinion to be unreasonable.

Why does a woman who has sex and unintentionally gets pregnant having an abortion seem irresponsible? Why does it bother you at all? Why do you make an exception in the case or rape?

Once you start walking down the line of rape being an okay reason for abortion, you have to begin to understand that abortion is a personal moral issue and society has never been about enforcing morals. See our health care, poverty issues, gun issues, murder issues, mental health issues, war issues, etc as a country. So, while you may not like it, it is a decision a woman must make for herself as the developing fetus is not created in a vacuum.

 

[Laughing Banana]

And when protection fails?

Like I said, people who engage in sexual intercourse must fully aware and be ready to take responsibility of all the possibilities that may ensue due to their actions.

Is it really that unreasonable?

The would-be mother should to the responsible thing and throw herself down some stairs or sit responsibly on a coat hanger.

Come on now, don't need to talk with such hostility.

Well, for whatever its worth, I am not a US citizen so this GOP thing does not affect me but I don't agree with the extreme stance its taken.

 

[Veezy]

Like I said, people who engage in sexual intercourse must fully aware and be ready to take responsibility of all the possibilities that may ensue due to their actions.

Is it really that unreasonable?

To ask somebody to destroy their current life and readjust their whole future because other people feel that terminating a pregnancy is akin to murder? yes.

 

[pigeon]

The two opinions are really pro-choice or pro-life.

Honestly, I really don't agree with this at all, and I think it's a problematic framing that makes the issue more contentious than it needs to be. Most Americans support abortion in some cases but not in others. I think it's critically important to establish that -- 75% of Americans don't think abortion should be fully illegal. So that's not really something we should be concerned with all the time, because it's a significantly minority opinion. A good number of those people think that there should be restrictions on abortion, which you may not agree with (I don't) -- but the argument shouldn't be "should abortion be illegal," it should be "when should abortion be illegal?" It's a very different question.

Like I said, people who engage in sexual intercourse must fully aware and be ready to take responsibility of all the possibilities that may ensue due to their actions.

I again think that this is the equivalent of putting people who have car accidents in jail for murder one. They need to take responsibility, right? Every time you get in a car, there's a good chance you're going to have an accident.

 

[CLEEK]

Like I said, people who engage in sexual intercourse must fully aware and be ready to take responsibility of all the possibilities that may ensue due to their actions.

Is it really that unreasonable?

So due to being 'unresponsible', women should be denied access to a medical procedure? That view is very totalitarian, but at least you're honest.

I assume you also want to outlaw medical procedures and treatment for other unresponsible behaviour. Heart disease, melanoma, STDs, type 2 diabetes, car accidents etc? Anyone easting bacon, going out in the sun, fucking, eating doughnuts, driving etc should be prepared for any consonances when things go wrong.

 

[Necromanti]

I again think that this is the equivalent of putting people who have car accidents in jail for murder one. They need to take responsibility, right? Every time you get in a car, there's a good chance you're going to have an accident.

On the subject of both abortions and car accidents, this actually reminds me of a news article I once read when I was living in Dubai...

Mother convicted of killing fetus in traffic accident.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Honestly, I really don't agree with this at all, and I think it's a problematic framing that makes the issue more contentious than it needs to be. Most Americans support abortion in some cases but not in others. I think it's critically important to establish that -- 75% of Americans don't think abortion should be fully illegal. So that's not really something we should be concerned with all the time, because it's a significantly minority opinion. A good number of those people think that there should be restrictions on abortion, which you may not agree with (I don't) -- but the argument shouldn't be "should abortion be illegal," it should be "when should abortion be illegal?" It's a very different question.
.

That's a good point, you are right.
Hopefully, there is a majority that think abortion should be legal for any reason up to at least the second/third trimester.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

Well, different places/culture resulted in different viewpoints, I guess. It's just generally how its viewed where I live my whole life, is all.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

Well, different places/culture resulted in different viewpoints, I guess. It's just generally how its viewed where I live my whole life, is all.

I think I agree with you, the difference is that you wish for your morals to be reflected in the law, whereas I accept that others might not share my view of sex being something that should be approached in a responsible and careful manner, and that my morals should not be forced upon them.

 

[Necromanti]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

Well, different places/culture resulted in different viewpoints, I guess. It's just generally how its viewed where I live my whole life, is all.

No. But where, pray tell, is this mystical wonderland where irresponsible sex doesn't ever happen? I wish that there was enough of a focus on sex education that this was the case everywhere. Your viewpoint is simply not congruent with reality, however.

I'm curious how you feel about places with low levels of sex education where "irresponsible sex" is rampant. But even then, you can be "responsible" and still end up pregnant or with STDs.

 

[CLEEK]

No. But where, pray tell, is this mystical wonderland where irresponsible sex doesn't happen?

Laughing Banana's bedroom.

 

[pigeon]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

This is bullshit, because your entire argument is that people who ARE being responsible and careful should still be prevented from having abortions, because they're having sex and that's intrinsically irresponsible. The perfect use failure rate of the pill is 0.3% per year -- on average, it will take you over a hundred years to get pregnant. Is that really not a responsible and careful approach to you? By contrast, over a million people are killed in car accidents every year. Your perspective is utterly inconsistent.

 

[Veezy]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

Well, different places/culture resulted in different viewpoints, I guess. It's just generally how its viewed where I live my whole life, is all.

Be careful of what you're accusing people who have had abortions of. I'm not too keen on the accusations that every abortion is a case of irresponsible sex.

 

[faceless007]

Like I said, people who engage in sexual intercourse must fully aware and be ready to take responsibility of all the possibilities that may ensue due to their actions.

Is it really that unreasonable?

Having an abortion when one is not ready or able to have a child is taking responsibility for one's actions.

Your view on this seems to place emphasis on the resultant child being used as a deterrent or maybe even a punishment instead of being, you know, an actual child who should be used as neither. A child is not leverage. This view is common among pro-lifers, though of course they never like having it stated that way.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Be careful of what you're accusing people who have had abortions of. I'm not too keen on the accusations that every abortion is a case of irresponsible sex.

Having an abortion when one is not ready or able to have a child is taking responsibility for one's actions.

That's a good point, thanks.

Laughing Banana's bedroom.

I suppose this is a bad idea after all.

I apologize if I have offended anybody in here.

 

[Christine]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

How do you tell an irresponsible pregnancy from an unlucky one?

Ensuring that everyone has access to legal abortion is the best way to ensure that it'll be reliably available to whomever you may deem to have the right to its use. It may be the only way.

 

[Emitan]

Like I said, people who engage in sexual intercourse must fully aware and be ready to take responsibility of all the possibilities that may ensue due to their actions.

Is it really that unreasonable?

Yes.

 

[CLEEK]

What about planned pregnancies, where the foutus is shown to have an abnormality or genetic trait that will massively reduce its quality of life, or life span?

The idea of a law that would force someone to be born into physical pain, disfigurement or reduced quality of life is utterly immoral in my mind.

 

[Psychotext]

Is it really that unreasonable?

Yes, because at that point you're looking at potentially ruining three lives rather than just stopping the development of a foetus.

I know of children living in poverty and misery (and in some cases abuse) simply because they had the misfortune to be born to people who should never have been parents in the first place. Inflicting that level of suffering onto an innocent is worse than ending a potential life in my personal opinion.

 

[The Technomancer]

What about planned pregnancies, where the foutus is shown to have an abnormality or genetic trait that will massively reduce its quality of life, or life span?

The idea of a law that would force someone to be born into physical pain, disfigurement or reduced quality of life is utterly immoral in my mind.

This one is very tricky for me personally.

 

[CharlieDigital]

What about planned pregnancies, where the foutus is shown to have an abnormality or genetic trait that will massively reduce its quality of life, or life span?

The idea of a law that would force someone to be born into physical pain, disfigurement or reduced quality of life is utterly immoral in my mind.

One other scenario that occurs as well is when the fetus stops developing due to an abnormality in how the egg attaches or how the egg sac develops as is the case with our first pregnancy where my wife miscarried in the first trimester.

The heartbeat was pretty weak at week 10 and more or less stopped at 12 weeks.

In this case there is pretty much no other option but to go in there and do a D&C procedure to extract the remains (same as an abortion procedure).

We also had friends who went through IVF where the egg ended up too high up in her uterus (I believe into the Fallopian tubes) and it had to be aborted because there was no way to carry that to term. This can happen with natural pregnancies as well.

There are legit, medical reasons for abortion and I would guess that a large majority of abortions are due to these types of reasons.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Yes, because at that point you're looking at potentially ruining three lives rather than just stopping the development of a foetus.

I know of children living in poverty and misery (and in some cases abuse) simply because they had the misfortune to be born to people who should never have been parents in the first place. Inflicting that level of suffering onto an innocent is worse than ending a potential life in my personal opinion.

The cruel irony of pro-lifer's.

 

[NullPointer]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

I personally agree with you, but neither of us can speak for others, and sex is so damn intrinsic to the human condition, its going to happen, lots ;P

Better education and access to contraception can help reduce the odds of unwanted pregnancies though, so we should try to attack on all fronts.

 

[Jenov]

I don't know, it's pretty simple I think. Like I said, if it's the case of forced intercourse/rape or the mother's life being endangered, then I have zero problems of abortion being performed if the lady wishes it so. In fact, I think that anyone who refuses to do it in such cases as not a good person.

However, if the baby/fetus is conceived due to two responsible adults engaging in sexual activities willingly? Then my position is take responsibility for your own actions. If you are not ready to bear responsibility, then do not do it because it will spell trouble for everyone involved.

I view sex as something that must be done responsibly, with the two people involved fully aware of all the possibilities that it may cause and be ready to bear responsibility for anything that may happen due to it. I don't see how my opinion to be unreasonable.

What about a 12 or 13 year old girl? Should she be forced to take responsibility for her actions too?

Edit nm, read that you recanted later

 

[speculawyer]

Is viewing sex as something that must be done in a responsible, careful manner something that is really that hard to accept?

It is naive to expect. If there is anything that nature has pounded into our skulls, it is the desire to fuck. That's the way evolution works. So people are going to do that. Responsibly and irresponsibly.

 

[SouthernDragon]

I don't count them as human beings because they aren't. When I read the "blastocyst" argument I was pretty convinced.

Well, only if that organ transplant were against a person's will, and involved, like, their heart. Then yup, I agree, they ARE totally the same!

They have no will.

 

[Devolution]

It is naive to expect. If there is anything that nature has pounded into our skulls, it is the desire to fuck. That's the way evolution works. So people are going to do that. Responsibly and irresponsibly.

It's an unrealistic concept based on natural = wanting not to fuck. People are going to fuck. This is reality. Even if you could drive down the amount of abortions with proper education and birth control/contraception (which hilariously they don't want universal/free/subsidized) accidents are going to happen. Should these women have that fetus now? Or abort it so she can raise kids in an optimal environment? Or what about mothers who cannot support or deal with a 4th or 5th child? Should they be without choice as well?

 

[MIMIC]

Like I said, people who engage in sexual intercourse must fully aware and be ready to take responsibility of all the possibilities that may ensue due to their actions.

Is it really that unreasonable?

I'm starting to get the impression that abortion is so popular because having a baby is such an easy mistake to make (considering today's culture), and thus the baby's life is devalued and downplayed in order to psychologically compensate for getting rid of it.

"Sex is fun and I like it. Whoops, I fucked up and had a baby. How does something so easy and enjoyable turn out to ruin my life? Well....it's not REALLY a person....so get rid of that shit!"

"It's not a big deal!" when it IS a big deal is probably the most popular way to try and justify a mistake. Responsibility sucks, doesn't it?

 

[Undead Unicorn]

I'm starting to get the impression that abortion is so popular because having a baby is such an easy mistake to make (considering today's culture), and thus the baby's life is devalued and downplayed in order to psychologically compensate for getting rid of it.

Hell no. You have no idea what circumstances these women have when they get an abortion. Some are troubled financially, some have emotional problems have marriages on the rocks, ect. Jesus Christ an abortion isn't fast food. People don't do it because it's the easy option.

 

[CLEEK]

Absolutely. If you have an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy, and you're in no position to raise a child, the responsible thing (for everyone; the mother, the child, society) is to not have a baby. Otherwise, you're condemning the child to all manor of social issues, poverty, ill health etc.

But as it keeps being mentioned, pro-lifers only care about the 'person' up until they are born.

 

[gutter_trash]

 

[Duffyside]

Absolutely. If you have an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy, the responsible thing (for everyone; the mother, the child, society) is to not have a baby. Otherwise, you're condemning the child to all manor of social issues, poverty, ill health etc.

But as it keeps being mentioned, pro-lifers only care about the 'person' up until they are born.

Jesus.

First of all, not all pro-lifers are right-wing conservative republican white male straight racists homophobe blahblahblah. Second of all, not believing in government provided social programs does not equal "not caring about people." I'd explain more, but no one in here actually cares.

Lastly, and most importantly, this "better off dead" argument is disgraceful. What about a month-old who is poor, has bad health, whatever -- are they also better off dead? When does this argument become abhorrent to you, like it is to the rest of us for all humans of all ages?

 

[Mercury Fred]

Jesus.

First of all, not all pro-lifers are right-wing conservative republican white male straight racists homophobe blahblahblah. Second of all, not believing in government provided social programs does not equal "not caring about people." I'd explain more, but no one in here actually cares.

Lastly, and most importantly, this "better off dead" argument is disgraceful. What about a month-old who is poor, has bad health, whatever -- are they also better off dead? When does this argument become abhorrent to you, like it is to the rest of us for all humans of all ages?

lol

 

[Yaboosh]

Jesus.

First of all, not all pro-lifers are right-wing conservative republican white male straight racists homophobe blahblahblah. Second of all, not believing in government provided social programs does not equal "not caring about people." I'd explain more, but no one in here actually cares.

Lastly, and most importantly, this "better off dead" argument is disgraceful. What about a month-old who is poor, has bad health, whatever -- are they also better off dead? When does this argument become abhorrent to you, like it is to the rest of us for all humans of all ages?

Birth dude. The argument becomes abhorrent at birth.

 

[Emitan]

I'm starting to get the impression that abortion is so popular because having a baby is such an easy mistake to make (considering today's culture), and thus the baby's life is devalued and downplayed in order to psychologically compensate for getting rid of it.

"Sex is fun and I like it. Whoops, I fucked up and had a baby. How does something so easy and enjoyable turn out to ruin my life? Well....it's not REALLY a person....so get rid of that shit!"

"It's not a big deal!" when it IS a big deal is probably the most popular way to try and justify a mistake. Responsibility sucks, doesn't it?

Sounds like the opinion of someone who will never get pregnant.

 

[mavs]

Birth dude. The argument becomes abhorrent at birth.

Birth makes as little sense as the transition point as conception, and barely more sense than thinking abortion is okay in case of rape but not otherwise.

 

[Hitokage]

I'm starting to get the impression that abortion is so popular because having a baby is such an easy mistake to make (considering today's culture), and thus the baby's life is devalued and downplayed in order to psychologically compensate for getting rid of it.

"Sex is fun and I like it. Whoops, I fucked up and had a baby. How does something so easy and enjoyable turn out to ruin my life? Well....it's not REALLY a person....so get rid of that shit!"

"It's not a big deal!" when it IS a big deal is probably the most popular way to try and justify a mistake. Responsibility sucks, doesn't it?

We've done the whole "women must be resigned to their lot" routine for centuries. It sucks. In fact, I can't even know how much it sucks, and I don't think anyone should know.

 

[Nocebo]

I'm starting to get the impression that abortion is so popular because having a baby is such an easy mistake to make (considering today's culture), and thus the baby's life is devalued and downplayed in order to psychologically compensate for getting rid of it.

"Sex is fun and I like it. Whoops, I fucked up and had a baby. How does something so easy and enjoyable turn out to ruin my life? Well....it's not REALLY a person....so get rid of that shit!"

"It's not a big deal!" when it IS a big deal is probably the most popular way to try and justify a mistake. Responsibility sucks, doesn't it?

Is this honestly what you think the situation and train of thought is like for the majority of women who get abortions?

 

[alphaNoid]

Abortion-GAF scares me greatly.