GOP set to adopt official abortion platform without exceptions for rape and incest

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Some things in life are a gamble. It sucks but it's true. Does a condom ever say that it's 100% effective? No. Birth control in general? No. Like I said, it's a gamble. A small-risk gamble, but a gamble, nonetheless.

My point was that Timedog & Devo were making it appear as if being pregnant and/or giving birth is the same as snatching out someone's vital organs. It isn't.

But why should something be a gamble when we have the tools to eliminate the gamble/luck component? It's like banning seatbelts to try and force people to drive slower. Ain't gonna work.

And a pregnancy is a SIGNIFCANT cost on the woman's body. I've had friends, relatives, and my own mom go through it when I was old enough to be aware of what was happening. A lot of people, including you, view it as this clean, reliable, consistent and easy thing to do. It is hell on the body, and requires you to change your lifestyle. And not in a "you have to stop drinking and smoking" way, it means diet changes, avoiding certain foods and areas, pill regimen, constant hospital visits in more dangerous pregnancies, post partum depression , etc.

Post partum is a big one. The pregnancy can go with no complications and the woman can still end up with it.


I just like how it's come down to, women who are sexually active deserve to gestate and bear children against their will. How the holy hell is that acceptable?

Because for some reason silly people think sex should be punished because you don't worship it as a rare event even though literally everything that has a female and male gender is constantly fucking. Also every egg and sperm is precious even though the female body is constantly making new eggs and if you don't masturbate or have sex after 4-5 days, the male body resorbs the sperm anyway
 
You know as awful as it is, "No abortions even for rape or incest" is at least logically consistent for someone who believes that it really is murder.

People that say that it should be banned with exceptions are really saying "women should be punished for having sex." Or they are really fucking stupid.
I just like how it's come down to, women who are sexually active deserve to gestate and bear children against their will. How the holy hell is that acceptable?
Hey why should a fetus be murdered against it's will!!!

I think the dialogue for the pro-choice movement made a mistake when it shifted to "this is really a plan to control women's bodyparts" and away from the good ol' "a fetus is not fucking alive you moron." The former is true, but to a sincere pro-lifer it's just name calling that will wash over them.
 
Can someone help me understand the pro life position on my Leukemia circumstance?

That would require someone to try and justify why -you- have to die because a fetus started developing in your uterus, preventing you from getting available treatment, because sanctity of life!

You're just going to end up ignored like that guy I called out on trumpeting every life deserving to live while wanting the death penalty because it's fine since we "only kill less than 100 a year"
 
Hey why should a fetus be murdered against it's will!!!

I think the dialogue for the pro-choice movement made a mistake when it shifted to "this is really a plan to control women's bodyparts" and away from the good ol' "a fetus is not fucking alive you moron." The former is true, but to a sincere pro-lifer it's just name calling that will wash over them.

It honestly doesn't matter since they are constantly moving the goal posts. A fetus is a life. Women who have sex deserve to be punished. Abortion is murder except in cases X Y and Z.

Meanwhile it's always the same consistency on this end, it's between a woman and her doctor, everyone else can but the fuck out.
 
You are dodging the central dilemma I was getting at:

You believe that abortion is wrong because it is ending a human life. Why then is it okay to end a human life as long as it was conceived through rape or incest, but not okay to end a human life when its conception was consensual? I understood that one was consensual; I wanted you to explain why the fact that one was non-consensual meant that the life produced had no value - or at least not enough value for it to be worth fighting for.

I also wanted you to explain why in one case you were willing to force her to carry a baby to term for nine months regardless of the fact that she might not want to have the child when it was consensual sex that produced it but not when it was non-consensual sex. You have enough empathy to understand that forcing a woman - against her consent - to carry a fetus she does not want when it is the result of rape is wrong and hurtful. Why does the scope of your empathy not include a woman who had consensual sex and now does not wish to carry a fetus to term? Why do you believe it is okay to force her to do something against her consent? Your answer that 'she and the father had consciously and willingly made a decision to do something that could result in the formation of human life' is a truism, but it is not a justification in and of itself.

Two people deciding to have sex, which they know can result in pregnancy, while abortion is illegal, does not equal "forced to carry a baby to term." No one is forcing you to do anything. In a nation where abortion is illegal, if you don't want to carry a baby to term, don't get pregnant. You are being forced to carry a baby to term if you are actually forced to have sex against your will.

If you don't think that is justification in and of itself, fine, that's your (serious) problem. But I'm just going to have to accept that. I'm unfortunately getting used to it, as people have said way crazier things in this thread, such as "yes, of course it's a human life, but that doesn't mean anything" and "it's not ok to kill babies but it is ok to kill terrorists? lololol."

I'd love to explain to the rest of you why it's "ok" to kill a convicted serial killer, or a person trying to harm you, but it is not ok to kill an innocent and defenseless child, but I truly don't have the time tonight.
 
Two people deciding to have sex, which they know can result in pregnancy, while abortion is illegal, does not equal "forced to carry a baby to term." No one is forcing you to do anything. In a nation where abortion is illegal, if you don't want to carry a baby to term, don't get pregnant. You are being forced to carry a baby to term if you are actually forced to have sex against your will.

If you don't think that is justification in and of itself, fine, that's your (serious) problem. But I'm just going to have to accept that. I'm unfortunately getting used to it, as people have said way crazier things in this thread, such as "yes, of course it's a human life, but that doesn't mean anything" and "it's not ok to kill babies but it is ok to kill terrorists? lololol."

I'd love to explain to the rest of you why it's "ok" to kill a convicted serial killer, or a person trying to harm you, but it is not ok to kill an innocent and defenseless child, but I truly don't have the time tonight.

The mental gymnastics on this one, wow.

Also let me ask you something, how often do you think women get pregnant from sex?
 
This is so crazy to me. What does it matter to anyone if someone else decides to have an abortion?

Is it strictly a relgious argument?
 
This is so crazy to me. What does it matter to anyone if someone else decides to have an abortion?

Is it strictly a relgious argument?

women should be forced to go through a physically demanding 9 month process, all because they dared to have sex without wanting a kid to result from it.
 
I'd love to explain to the rest of you why it's "ok" to kill a convicted serial killer, or a person trying to harm you, but it is not ok to kill an innocent and defenseless child, but I truly don't have the time tonight.

Easy. Because you consider one okay because it makes you feel better, the other bad because it makes you feel better, even though you had no involvement in either decision, because your idea of the sanctity of life only applies when it's convienent.
 
This is so crazy to me. What does it matter to anyone if someone else decides to have an abortion?

Is it strictly a relgious argument?
There are a very small number of atheists that are anti-abortion. I don't understand it. But it is largely a religious argument.

I can understand the religious argument . . . if you think god sprinkles in magic pixie dust of a soul or something then I can understand why you oppose abortion. But I really don't get the atheist view other than people that need simplistic black & white rules because they can't deal with gray areas at all.
 
This is so crazy to me. What does it matter to anyone if someone else decides to have an abortion?

Is it strictly a relgious argument?
Some people think that life begins at conception and that an abortion is murder. Actual murder! Like tantamount to walking over to your neighbor's home and stabbing them to death.

And to argue with them about anything but that core idea is wasted time.
 
Two people deciding to have sex, which they know can result in pregnancy, while abortion is illegal, does not equal "forced to carry a baby to term." No one is forcing you to do anything. In a nation where abortion is illegal, if you don't want to carry a baby to term, don't get pregnant. You are being forced to carry a baby to term if you are actually forced to have sex against your will.

It does if the sex results in pregnancy and someone prevents the woman from having an abortion.

And your two sentences that follow the underlined segment highlight what this is actually about for anti-choicers: This is about sex, and more particularly about women's ability to have sex without facing the risk of pregnancy. You can see the consequences of this perspective when you view the same community's reaction to the possibility of an HPV vaccine. Their concern was not whether the vaccine was safe or whether it was effective. They were concerned that a vaccine that prevents human papillomavirus (HPV), which can lead to cervical cancer, would lead girls to believe that they would be able to have safe sex and would have more sex. The concern here is the same. It is a concern that women might be able to have sex without worrying about becoming pregnant.

I believe that sex is an integral part of a complete romantic and emotional relationship with another person - at least for those of us who are not asexual. I believe that women should be able to engage in this without it being the equivalent of playing Pregnancy Roulette. People who are anti-choice might believe the former, but they do not believe the latter - and I think it gives lie to whatever support they claim to have for the former.

If you don't think that is justification in and of itself, fine, that's your (serious) problem.

You have not justified anything. You have said the equivalent of "I believe that sex should always be a choice fraught with unnecessary risk for women. I believe that sex is something that women should not be allowed to do unless they are willing to take the risk of having a pregnancy occur. If a pregnancy does occur, she made her choice and I believe in forcing her to carry it to term." You are outlining a radically anti-sex position, though I suspect that you will not own this.
 
I can see the religious argument and it makes sense in those terms, but doesn't make sense how this should be even considered in terms of politics. This should be such an easy and ridiculous thing to just throw away.
 
I can see the religious argument and it makes sense in those terms, but doesn't make sense how this should be even considered in terms of politics. This should be such an easy and ridiculous thing to just throw away.
Because some people value cute little fetus lives and are willing to vote for anyone that says they will protect them regardless of anything else they will do.

It's like free votes from stupid people.
 
People should just say, "For religious reasons I will never have an abortion." and be done with it. Give it a fucking rest.

I'm very angry tonight about a lot of things.
 
People should just say, "For religious reasons I will never have an abortion." and be done with it. Give it a fucking rest.

I'm very angry tonight about a lot of things.
Doesn't work like that.

Just get into these people's heads. Empathize with them. They think that abortion is murder.

Not like some aww shucks religious tradition that doesn't allow them to eat pork. They believe it is murder, and that no one should murder an innocent life.

Understanding a pro-lifer's motive to ban abortion is the easiest thing in the world.
 
So are we pretending that we live in a world where Roe v.s. Wade never actually happened?



The case of rape has been taked about a lot, but why do people make an exception for incest?

From my understanding it's trying to justify being raped by someone related to you, as in a 12 year old girl raped by her father having to carry the baby to term.
 
You are dodging the central dilemma I was getting at:

You believe that abortion is wrong because it is ending a human life. Why then is it okay to end a human life as long as it was conceived through rape or incest, but not okay to end a human life when its conception was consensual? I understood that one was consensual; I wanted you to explain why the fact that one was non-consensual meant that the life produced had no value - or at least not enough value for it to be worth fighting for.

I also wanted you to explain why in one case you were willing to force her to carry a baby to term for nine months regardless of the fact that she might not want to have the child when it was consensual sex that produced it but not when it was non-consensual sex. You have enough empathy to understand that forcing a woman - against her consent - to carry a fetus she does not want when it is the result of rape is wrong and hurtful. Why does the scope of your empathy not include a woman who had consensual sex and now does not wish to carry a fetus to term? Why do you believe it is okay to force her to do something against her consent? Your answer that 'she and the father had consciously and willingly made a decision to do something that could result in the formation of human life' is a truism, but it is not a justification in and of itself.

I explained that here

Of course she's not signing her own death certificate (minus small percentage of cases), and i never mentioned anything about giving up a heart, so you're attacking a straw man.

Errr....you said: So, in instances where it is the only option (shortage of donors, rare blood type, immediacy of need, etc), you are all for pushing legislation that legally forces the person who put the other person in the situation of mortal danger to give up internal parts of their body to another human being?

(emphasis mine)

---

So what is mortal danger, exactly? A bump on the head? A scratch on the knee. That was no strawman. I was making an inference.

But anyways, you still haven't responded, except to some fallacious idea that organ, tissue, and bodily fluid donors can only give up their heart. What about non-vital organs, tissue, and bodily fluids? Please respond.

I responded to that here: Like I said, the mother [during pregnancy] isn't GIVING anything. She's allowing something to grow, not just keeping it alive. Mothers aren't considered "life support" for their babies because the babies aren't dying. Of course without [their mothers], they die, but I think that there is a fundamental difference. Being pregnant isn't considered "saving a fetus".

Besides, saying that there's only 1 particular kidney in the world that will save Mr. John Doe is a little far-fetched. With a fetus, there is literally only 1 thing that will prevent it from dying: its mother.


---

The components to your analogy are simply not realistic. When a woman is pregnant, she is the ONLY ONE capable of providing life for the fetus. There's no way in the world ONE PERSON is going to be the only one capable of providing for a person in need. Why do you think the pro-life argument is for the woman to keep the baby? Because we want her body to suffer rather than let the baby grow in a magic bubble? BABIES GO IN A WOMAN'S UTERUS. Can you think of a better place to put it that would 1) keep the baby alive and 2) allow the woman to end her pregnancy? Because I'm all ears.
 
I think they should go all the way and ban male masterbation or any form of ejaculation without trying to conceive. It should be considered harmful to the sperm as it is a part of life.

Just a random thought, not at all serious.

Would you male pro lifers be okay with being told that you may no longer masterbate?
 
This is so crazy to me. What does it matter to anyone if someone else decides to have an abortion?

Is it strictly a relgious argument?

I've asked, multiple times in various ways, exactly why X person i so concerned with another woman having an abortion but doesn't fight in other ways to save life. Why it bothers them so much if a woman they've never met decides to terminate her pregnancy, regardless of the reason.

The only response I've ever gotten is that it's killing a child, yet these same people are never for increasing health care to the public, preventing pregnancy to begin with, increasing aid to foreign nations where children are dying of disease, working with inter-city youth to prevent the deaths of children there, etc.

Their one concern is abortion. And they just simply don't know why, except if a woman does it, they're committing a murder.

Consentual sex between two biological children of the same parents.

Because sex between relatives, in many cases (no i don't have data), if they're children could be coerced.

Or, the biological reason if it's two, let's say 20 years olds, who decided to have sex and there wasn't anything shady behind it, incest doesn't exactly produce healthy kids due to sharing the same genes.

I think they should go all the way and ban male masterbation or any form of ejaculation without trying to conceive. It should be considered harmful to the sperm as it is a part of life.

Just a random thought, not at all serious.

Would you male pro lifers be okay with being told that you may no longer masterbate?

They're not against masturbation. They're against abortion. How the child gets there, in terms of responsibility or not, and the circumstances of the individuals involved isn't part of their concern. Only that the fetus fully develops into a baby and that the baby is born. After that, they could care less if the child is raised with the mother or given up to the State or another couple looking to adopt. Just that there's a birth.
 
The more I talk about this, the more I think that there's something really warped about the idea that we have a moral responsibility to bring a child into a world where they will be hated and resented by the only people they have to protect them. In some ways, this is worse than creating an underclass, because at least they have the other people in the underclass to hang out with! Somebody who grows up in a household where their parents resent them is more than likely going to have an extremely difficult time just dealing with life. The reason I keep raising the question of moral killing is because I think it's fundamentally an unexamined position to say that killing, or even killing an innocent, should be wrong regardless of context. Even Jesus knew that sometimes killing is the best way to get stuff done (albeit he was the one getting killed). Shouldn't our goal be to create a society that's functional rather than just full? How do you feel about euthanasia?
 
Or, the biological reason if it's two, let's say 20 years olds, who decided to have sex and there wasn't anything shady behind it, incest doesn't exactly produce healthy kids due to sharing the same genes.
This is on the same level as considering other impairments detected in the womb, and not necessarily of the major kind.
 
I've asked, multiple times in various ways, exactly why X person i so concerned with another woman having an abortion but doesn't fight in other ways to save life. Why it bothers them so much if a woman they've never met decides to terminate her pregnancy, regardless of the reason.

The only response I've ever gotten is that it's killing a child, yet these same people are never for increasing health care to the public, preventing pregnancy to begin with, increasing aid to foreign nations where children are dying of disease, working with inter-city youth to prevent the deaths of children there, etc.

Their one concern is abortion. And they just simply don't know why, except if a woman does it, they're committing a murder.

Do you really believe that? It's as simple as willfully killing a baby is wrong. People get concerned when other people kill their babies. Mentioning other world problems that also contribute to death does not change this point at all, and simply shows that yes there are other issues out there.

That's how you have to think about it to understand the counter argument. If you believe the fetus is the equivalent of a baby, then for the exact same reasons that you might take issue with your neighbor placing their infant in the trash can, they will take issue with aborting a fetus. It does not matter if you are for the death penalty, or universal healthcare, or whatever other issue that may seem contradictory. It also does not matter that the woman may have changed her mind, or wasn't ready to really have a child, or didn't want the kid to suffer as an orphan, etc. You probably still would not condone a parent placing their baby in a trash can regardless of the reasoning. And as said, for some the fetus is the equivalent case
 
Can someone help me understand the pro life position on my Leukemia circumstance?

Chemotherapy is said to be safe for a fetus after the 2nd trimester (12 weeks).

Can't delay treatment? Get it anyway. The baby can't survive without its mother so it's either going to die during treatment or die because the mother was never treated. Either way, it still gives the baby a chance at survival if all precautions are exercised. I've read that birth defect rate is 20% in the 1st trimester, but that's still a chance at survival.
 
Do you really believe that? It's as simple as willfully killing a baby is wrong. People get concerned when other people kill their babies. Mentioning other world problems that also contribute to death does not change this point at all, and simply shows that yes there are other issues out there.

That's how you have to think about it to understand the counter argument. If you believe the fetus is the equivalent of a baby, then for the exact same reasons that you might take issue with your neighbor placing their infant in the trash can, they will take issue with aborting a fetus. It does not matter if you are for the death penalty, or universal healthcare, or whatever other issue that may seem contradictory. It also does not matter that the woman may have changed her mind, or wasn't ready to really have a child, or didn't want the kid to suffer as an orphan, etc. You probably still would not condone a parent placing their baby in a trash can regardless of the reasoning. And as said, for some the fetus is the equivalent case

It is indeed contradictory, because we're not talking about putting a baby in a trash can.

We're talking about all the complications regarding pregnancy. Somebody taking a live baby and putting it in a garbage can is silly as, at that point, they can turn it over to the state. The damage is done. Also, we're talking about somebody birth a child, holding it, and then killing it. Before that point, long before that point, we have abortion. Which is not, in any way, they same as killing a live baby. Viewing it that way, takes a special kind disrespect for the decisions that a woman makes regarding her uterus.

I'll concede that that's how they may view it, but they refuse to concede how their view is personal. Wanting to force their morals on another person, when their are plenty of other things that are morally wrong in this country, is selfish.

This is on the same level as considering other impairments detected in the womb, and not necessarily of the major kind.

*shurg*

That's all I can think of. I think, in the case of a sever genetic defect, abortion might be a kinder way to go especially in the cases of babies being dead at birth. Others that support the incest clause could give better reasoning.

Or, it's just icky.
 
The more I talk about this, the more I think that there's something really warped about the idea that we have a moral responsibility to bring a child into a world where they will be hated and resented by the only people they have to protect them. In some ways, this is worse than creating an underclass, because at least they have the other people in the underclass to hang out with! Somebody who grows up in a household where their parents resent them is more than likely going to have an extremely difficult time just dealing with life. The reason I keep raising the question of moral killing is because I think it's fundamentally an unexamined position to say that killing, or even killing an innocent, should be wrong regardless of context. Even Jesus knew that sometimes killing is the best way to get stuff done (albeit he was the one getting killed). Shouldn't our goal be to create a society that's functional rather than just full? How do you feel about euthanasia?


That latter point isn't whats being discussed but if a woman doesn't want to bring a child into her world, bring it to term and would rather abort then set it up for adoption then its her choice.
 
It is indeed contradictory, because we're not talking about putting a baby in a trash can.

We're talking about all the complications regarding pregnancy. Somebody taking a live baby and putting it in a garbage can is silly as, at that point, they can turn it over to the state. The damage is done. Also, we're talking about somebody birth a child, holding it, and then killing it. Before that point, long before that point, we have abortion. Which is not, in any way, they same as killing a live baby. Viewing it that way, takes a special kind disrespect for the decisions that a woman makes regarding her uterus.

I'll concede that that's how they may view it, but they refuse to concede how their view is personal. Wanting to force their morals on another person, when their are plenty of other things that are morally wrong in this country, is selfish.

But do they need to concede that. Thinking any "crime" is wrong is personal and may not be held by everyone, but society regularly forces moral code upon everyone. Viewing this is no different. Some believe that there should be no option to kill your fetus. If you attempt to do so you are committing a crime and should be punished. Like any crime, there may be what some may deem valid arguments and reasoning as to why it was comitted. But it's still a crime at the end of the day because society has deemed it so. Or at least would if they had their way in making it law in the US.

You mentioned that abortion is in no way similar to killing a live baby, and my point was that for some it IS. It's the principle point of the argument in my opinion, and neither side will budge on it.

For me personally, I believe many hide behind this point when in reality religion or other factors are pushing their pro life beliefs. But I have met a few people that honestly believe that conception = baby and will not budge on it. And it's quite hard to argue really
 
I've read that birth defect rate is 20% in the 1st trimester, but that's still a chance at survival.

That women should be forced to take? It's a cruel game of chance to force on someone else's unborn child. Or do they have a right to say "20% probability of a birth defect is too high for me to consider".
 
But do they need to concede that. Thinking any "crime" is wrong is personal and may not be held by everyone, but society regularly forces moral code upon everyone. Viewing this is no different. Some believe that there should be no option to kill your fetus. If you attempt to do so you are committing a crime and should be punished. Like any crime, there may be what some may deem valid arguments and reasoning as to why it was comitted. But it's still a crime at the end of the day because society has deemed it so. Or at least would if they had their way in making it law in the US.

You mentioned that abortion is in no way similar to killing a live baby, and my point was that for some it IS. It's the principle point of the argument in my opinion, and neither side will budge on it.

For me personally, I believe many hide behind this point when in reality religion or other factors are pushing their pro life beliefs. But I have met a few people that honestly believe that conception = baby and will not budge on it. And it's quite hard to argue really

And here's where we hit the crux of the problem, indeed.

If a mother takes poor care of herself and miscarries, and it's due to her actions, nobody would suggest that she committed manslaughter. It's only the willful termination of the pregnancy that's deemed as a crime, not the ending of the infant's life due to any other reason. So, they are able, to see a stark difference between a developing embryo/fetus and a baby. Other wise, we'd be comparing child neglect to a pregnant woman not eating properly. Which would be incredibly insane. Or, a woman who works out, trips one day and miscarries to manslaughter.

My issue comes in that the view is inconsistent. We must protect life at all costs, but if a woman gets pregnant she's not getting a damn thing for free. Let's say a pregnancy is lost due to improper funds. She just didn't get proper care. Are we fighting as hard to fix that as we are to stop abortion?

That's what infuriates me. This unborn child only matters in the since that the mother cannot willfully decide to end the pregnancy. Anything else that happens, while tragic, isn't as big of a deal as a mother deciding to terminate pregnancy at week one, or whenever. That's a terrible position to have and hypocritical in the broad sense. We're going to push the moral of "abortion is infanticide" but not "everybody pregnant woman deserves health care even if she doesn't have a fucking dime for the good of the baby"?

If these same people were fighting for, lets say, any of the following: free care for pregnant women, an increase in OB/GYN specialty doctors to lower infant mortality rates, an increase in safe sex education to reduce the chance of pregnancy, and increase in public funding to State homes for unwanted children, I'd still disagree but then we'd have a discussion that even a hardline feminist would be able to participate in without too much vitriol. However, that's never the discussion. The discussion always is "abortion is a crime cause it's baby murder." Which, honestly, just isn't a discussion worth having if that's the only point brought to the table because that view makes the woman out to be a first degree murderer and the doctor an accomplice.
 
As I stated earlier, this whole topic is based on a San Francisco paper ... taking a conservative think groups comments and using it as policy for the Republican party. A Republican somehwhere said this, and you people are just going with it as policy. What the fuck?
 
That women should be forced to take? It's a cruel game of chance to force on someone else's unborn child. Or do they have a right to say "20% probability of a birth defect is too high for me to consider".

Why are you asking me? Seems like you already have your mind made up.

There's a 1% chance of a birth defect during the 2nd trimester. That could also be considered an enormous gamble.

Someone get the vacuum!

Nonetheless, my point was that it's possible for both the baby and the mother to survive.
 
As I stated earlier, this whole topic is based on a San Francisco paper ... taking a conservative think groups comments and using it as policy for the Republican party. A Republican somehwhere said this, and you people are just going with it as policy. What the fuck?

Again with this?

This is the official GOP policy on abortion. Not a think tank. The GOP.

According to a plank adopted by a 112-member Republican committee meeting here, an “unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life that cannot be infringed.” The platform also calls for legislation recognizing the rights of unborn children under the 14th Amendment.

Former RNC Chairman Michael Steele admitted Wednesday that not including rape exemptions in an abortion ban is “way outside” the “mainstream of American thought” Wednesday, but said Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign shouldn’t have a “big fight” over changing the GOP platform, which includes no such exemptions.


Michael Steele is acknowledge it and you're not. Is he wrong too?

EDIT: And the thread is based on a CNN article. I was the one that linked to to the SF article because you wanted another source.
 
What I don't understand about the GOP is that I thought they're all for individual freedom, but they want to ban this?

I don't get it.
 
I am afraid I am not seeing the part where you answer those questions. It seems more like you were dodging the dilemma by claiming neutrality, which still does not explain to me why one situation elicits one reaction and the other situation elicits another.

So I have to pick a side? Says who?

I said that they are BOTH terrible dilemmas and I'm unable to decide which one should have priority over the other. Just like the non-stop lectures about the "Oppression Olympics", I would prefer not being forced into saying which horrible circumstance should be given more consideration over the other.
 

That is a shit ton of information that I cannot digest right now as tired as I am.

I am just going to wait for the convention. And I guarantee that abortion is not going to be a topic that they will hit on. Well at least not Romney, maybe some of the other guys and gals may do so.

Just look at the 8 years of Bush's presidency, and the whole sanctity of marriage thing which he never really pursued. It is a Ritz cracker thrown out to a certain element that will completely be ignored if Romney wins. Just like true gay rites and marijuana legalization for Obama. He has his underlings throw it out there to get that segment, but he will deny it when it is brought up in debates. It is what they all do. And it is the reason that you cannot feel good about voting for any of them. You are voting for a party at the end of the day and not a candidate.

I bet anyone of you could answer a question for either party. As soon as the question is asked, I bet you know what they are going to say. To get to where those two guys are, it takes a whole lot of appealing to very specific ideas and demographics.

Obama will allow the idea of drug legalization linger out there, but when asked directly he will sort of deny it. The same with Romney and abortion issues. He will not lose that twenty percent or so that bases their vote on that one issue just to be honest for a moment.
 
As I stated earlier, this whole topic is based on a San Francisco paper ... taking a conservative think groups comments and using it as policy for the Republican party. A Republican somehwhere said this, and you people are just going with it as policy. What the fuck?
Factual misrepresentations of the situation are not your ticket to posting success. You would have a point if you asked people to wait until the platform is voted on during the convention or to question the actual importance of the party platform, but you're not even attempting to get the story straight.
 
I am just going to wait for the convention. And I guarantee that abortion is not going to be a topic that they will hit on. Well at least not Romney, maybe some of the other guys and gals may do so.

This topic will probably come up during the convention. The Republicans will praise actions that limit abortion. Romney will avoid the subject as much as he can. The language in that CNN article will be in the official platform.

I don't think this story is big news because it's language the Republicans have used for years. John McCain ran for president with that amendment on the Republican platform, but I don't recall him ever supporting it anywhere.

I think you're right that it exists to placate part of their base, and it won't get any real traction if they win elections. It's definitely not something Romney will run on. But whatever it is, that amendment and that stance on abortion is still going to be a part of the official Republican Party platform.
 
You asked about destroying "life", not the life of a fetus.

This seems highly disingenuous in the context of a discussion about abortion. It's also irrelevant, because if you have yet to show that it is always wrong to destroy a fetus, you necessarily have not yet shown that it is always wrong to destroy life.

I should add that should I agree that it is always wrong to destroy a particular life or a particular sort of life, it does not necessarily follow that I agree that it is always wrong to destroy life, unless you can show that this moral mandate is consequent of a quality universally present in all life.

But at any rate, no a fetus can't talk, obviously. But whatever the life of a fetus may entail, it's still a human life and we as civilized individuals should work to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Being unable to talk, walk, blink, etc. should not invalidate that right, either.

I agree that the life of a fetus is a human life. I don't agree that you've shown that it is always wrong to end human lives.

The inability to talk, walk, blink, think, etc. doesn't affect any duties we have with respect to preserving the life of a fetus--it merely invalidates the equivalences you're trying to draw between the life of a fetus and the life of a person.

I do agree that we should work to protect those who cannot protect themselves, whenever possible and morally permissible. I do not believe that this imperative is even close to sufficient justification to violate a human person's autonomy over her own body.

Fetuses are not known for legislating or enforcing prohibitions against abortion, so the conflict at question is between a person who wishes to exercise ownership over her body and other adult persons who would claim an easement on it. Trespass against the only property we can truly claim as our own is made no less noxious or more permissible by asserting that it is done on behalf of a fetus.

Because she is responsible for creating a human life whose only means of survival and growth is her uterus. Had it not been for the actions of the mother and father, she would be obligated to do absolutely nothing.

Babies don't try and spite the mother by growing in her uterus instead of in the sink or something. That's where babies go.

The fact that a creation of human life may be a result of a woman's voluntary actions does not in itself entail that she has an obligation to refrain from destroying it. The act of lighting a fire does not obligate me to let it burn, nor does the act of planting a seed obligate me to let it take root.

In assigning her the responsibility for the creation of a human life, you cede to her the choice of how to address the consequences of that act, for there can be no responsibility without freedom of choice. If she is to be responsible for the creation of life, she must be permitted the opportunity to be responsible for its destruction.

To do otherwise is to fetishize and aggrandize the biological operation of a uterus to the point of eclipsing any other value or importance its owner might have as a human person.

To do otherwise is to reduce a substantial portion of human sexuality to its procreative function.

To do otherwise is to validate every paranoia motivating lysistratan proscription and to unequivocally recommend its most absolute application.

To do otherwise is to take an act which at its best has a rare power to celebrate and strengthen mutual ties of affection and emotional commitment and pervert it into an implicit contract revoking a woman's rights to her person in favor of a property claim made on her flesh--a contract, which were it made explicit would be peremptorily annulled by any court not completely deranged by "the old Christian virtues gone mad" as an unconscionable and illegal form of slavery; bonding twisted into bondage.

To do otherwise is to claim that a woman must purchase permission to have intercourse by mortgaging her body to a communal prerogative of eminent domain.

To do otherwise is to make it impossible for two adults to keep their sex life private from their government and their peers.

I offer in all sincerity that in such a moral paradigm it would be irresponsible not to require both partners to possess a government license to commit intercourse, if not a separate registration for each act of coitus.

.

And that's the best case scenario. All of the above presumes an ideal and magickal world in which abortion prohibition can cleanly and neatly end all abortions while avoiding as many negative consequences as possible.

In the real world, abortion prohibition won't end abortions.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will increase the number of illegal abortions and attempts at self-abortion. Abortions that frequently have consequences ranging from rendering women incapable of bearing future children to some of the most terrifying and painful deaths humans can experience.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will increase the number of pregnant suicides and the number of babies suffocated by their mothers.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will increase the number of abandoned children and the number of children consigned to a shamefully inadequate and traumatic foster care system that is already burdened far past its capacity.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will create the most unwanted children in the communities which are the poorest and the least capable of supporting them.

I consider this transactional approach to sex and procreation one of the most harmful evils to ever stalk the world. As a philosophic ideal it's morally repugnant; as reality it's a nearly unrivaled horror of misery, indignity, and pain.
 
MIMIC, your views are extreme and even unrealistic, but I can understand your reasoning. I wouldn't even be able to argue against them because your views and values are so different than mine.

I guess the point is how come this stance can not just apply to you? You can live your life like this and feel noble for never taking the unnecessary risk, but why does this have to apply to everyone, especially people that do not share your views? There are a lot of different beliefs on what defines life depending on your religion or science based beliefs, why not leave it up to the belief of the individual?

Again, exactly!

In a pro-choice world, everyone is free to chose for themselves whether or not they want to use abortions. In a pro-life world, no one has that choice.

One side is already a bigger compromise than the other.

Still interested in seeing these questions answered by anyone for an abortion ban:

How would one handle a ban on abortion?
Would it be by making the act of abortion illegal, or would it be by giving the fetus a right to life that supersedes the pregnant woman's right to control her body?

If you had a pregnant woman in custody who intended to get an abortion, would you keep her in jail until she has given birth?
Would you strap her down until she gives birth if she doesn't comply?

If someone is irresponsible when it comes to sex, why would it be a good idea to make them deal with the massive responsibility that a child is?
Do you think that their previous irresponsibleness will result in them being responsible when it comes to caring for the kid?
 
So I have to pick a side? Says who?

I said that they are BOTH terrible dilemmas and I'm unable to decide which one should have priority over the other. Just like the non-stop lectures about the "Oppression Olympics", I would prefer not being forced into saying which horrible circumstance should be given more consideration over the other.

You're still dodging. I did not say you had to pick a side; I asked you to explain the disparate reactions and the lack of empathy you have in one of the scenarios.

Scenario 1: Woman is pregnant as a result of non-consensual sex
Reaction: Having an abortion is terrible, but forcing her to carry a fetus that she does not want is also terrible; I pick neither side.

Scenario 2: Woman is pregnant as a result of consensual sex
Reaction: I do not care that she does not want this baby; if she did not want it she should never have had sex. I am willing to use the force of law and the threat of legal punishment to force her to carry the fetus to term whether she wants to or not.

Why do you possess empathy in the first scenario and demonstrate a complete lack of it in the second?
 
In the real world, abortion prohibition won't end abortions.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will increase the number of illegal abortions and attempts at self-abortion. Abortions that frequently have consequences ranging from rendering women incapable of bearing future children to some of the most terrifying and painful deaths humans can experience.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will increase the number of pregnant suicides and the number of babies suffocated by their mothers.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will increase the number of abandoned children and the number of children consigned to a shamefully inadequate and traumatic foster care system that is already burdened far past its capacity.

In the real world, abortion prohibition will create the most unwanted children in the communities which are the poorest and the least capable of supporting them.

I consider this transactional approach to sex and procreation one of the most harmful evils to ever stalk the world. As a philosophic ideal it's morally repugnant; as reality it's a nearly unrivaled horror of misery, indignity, and pain.

Great points. The social cost in an anti-abortion world would prove to be an overall negative with MUCH more suffering and degradation into the poor class than anything.
 
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