Breaking Bad - Season 5, Part 1 - Sundays on AMC

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iammeiam said:
The Walt we see in the first episode of this season left all of the components of making a bomb out on his kitchen counter, for hours, while he blew up Gus and dealt with the aftermath. This was exceedingly careless.

You can tell how careless it was, because he's literally just finished his cleanup and picked up his glass to start drinking when the front door opens and his family comes in. Had he been stuck in traffic, or been delayed talking to Jesse, or had car trouble, his family would have walked in on an entire bomb factory in their kitchen.

Walt has always been semi-careful, but never criminal mastermind careful. Mike has to tell him not to drive his personal car to Vamanos Pest. Mike has to prod him to remove the bug from the DEA. Skylar never manages to get him to stop spending money on stuff they can't afford. Keeping a book with a handwritten message is far from the dumbest thing we've seen him do, this is just the first time his stupidity has actually bit him in the ass.
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'His family would have walked in' - Exactly, Skyler wouldn't care much as we've seen this season and you tell some story to Junior. And i think you can cut Walt some slack because he was out there saving his life. There's no such thing in this case.

Yes, Walt was never always super-careful but i don't think you can really compare these situations. Semi-careful should have been enough to have him remove that book from public. Anyhow, justifying actions and developments by saying 'Welp, Walt can be really stupid sometimes' isn't enticing.
And that doesn't address Hank being handed such a present.

You said that Hank did nothing related to police work to figure it out. That's factually untrue.

We also don't know all the details behind the book. How did it end up in the bathroom? Did Walt ever actually see the note in the book?
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What did Hank to this season? Hisenberg case was closed, it's at a dead-end. No clues to follow. Hank has nothing. But hold and behold, let him randomly discover key evidence by going to the bathroom. Top notch police work there. not a blatant move none so ever.

And can we stop suggesting excuses? The writers did an awful job at this front. Let's not go 'but maybe Walt didn't know the book has this page', 'Maybe Skyler moved it from another place unbeknownst to Walt'...
 
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Saty said:
Hank consulted with Walt regarding the netbook so they both know the style of dedication that Gale used. That's the point of the flashback. So Walt kept an evidence he knew would tie him to Gale if Hank were to find it and why wouldn't Hank find it when he's Walt's family-member and would visit his home and bathroom all the time?!
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Like I asked before, is it possible that Walt was so aloof to Gale that he never bothered to even see that there was a dedication, and that's why it's sitting in his bathroom? Or was there a scene with him seeing it?
 
Saty said:
What did Hank to this season? Hisenberg case was closed, it's at a dead-end. No clues to follow. Hank has nothing. But hold and behold, let him randomly discover key evidence by going to the bathroom. Top notch police work there. not a blatant move none so ever.
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Hank chased down Mike and Madrigal's men this entire season while combing through the remains of Gus's legacy.

And it's called "irony." It's a frequently used tool in drama in which expectations are built up and then subverted with an unexpected twist. This is commonly considered to be interesting, surprising, shocking, and/or humorous, depending on the context.


Saty said:
And can we stop suggesting excuses? The writers did an awful job at this front. Let's not go 'but maybe Walt didn't know the book has this page', 'Maybe Skyler moved it from another place unbeknownst to Walt'...
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Nah, I think I won't jump to conclusions because I dislike a show.
 
Saty said:
Such a weak episode to end the season with. And such a terrible ending. Do we really need any more evidence that the show is overrated and has huge writing flaws that would have been ripped apart in every other show?

They should have ended the season with last week's episode. It would have served as a way better season finale. And this episode would have served much better at next season's opener.

The ending was crap. Deux ex machina all over the place. The writers have provided Hank with a present. 'Oh hey, we reached the final season and Hank is no where close to catching Walt so let's drop the evidence into his lap'. Pft.

Who will leave such an evidence lying there in the bathroom that serves anybody who visits the house, including his wife's sister's husband who is the head of the DEA. The both know about the notebook and the dedication written by Gale, but Walter doesn't mind leaving a book with the same style of dedication signed by the initials of a drug-cooker.

The same Walter who dumped half of his house in the opening episode so there won't be any possibility of connecting Gus' death with him, and even dumping the whole poisonous plant.
When it suits the writing team Walt is the cleverest guy in the world. And when it suits them elsewhere Walt is the dumbest guy in the world.
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beastmode said:
Yep, the writers consistently pull everything out of their asses to get the show to fit episode counts. It's become progressively worse each season since the second. Bringing up some forgotten bullshit from 2 seasons ago on the mid-season finale? Those two factors occurring together are not a coincidence. AMC not committing to an end-date for a show conceived with the ending in mind is almost certainly the cause.

That people consider this an opinion from Neptune is striking.
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beastmode said:
That people consider this an opinion from Neptune is striking.
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You know, I don't really get what people see in The Wire. I watched most of it, waiting for it to become the Best Show On TV Ever and got tired of waiting for it to become that.

But you know what? My opinion on that is from Neptune. Something in the show doesn't resonate with me like it does with most people who watch it and that's ok. I occasionally like to prod at it and all, but mostly I don't really care.

So yeah, your opinion is from Neptune on this. This is a fantastic show. Not without its faults, because there has never been a story told that was completely flawless. But it is a great show and will go down in history as just that, and there will always be a minority that just doesn't get it.
 
AlexSmash said:
red dead redemption comes to mind.

everything seems to be good in the end ... BAM

btw i bet walt never saw gales note
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I assume so, Walt never cared for gale, he always wanted Jesse and only viewed Jesse as his partner and cooking equal.

no doubt Walt got the book said thanks and just tossed it in the bathroom because figured no one would read it or look through it while shitting.
 
maharg said:
You know, I don't really get what people see in The Wire. I watched most of it, waiting for it to become the Best Show On TV Ever and got tired of waiting for it to become that.

But you know what? My opinion on that is from Neptune. Something in the show doesn't resonate with me like it does with most people who watch it and that's ok. I occasionally like to prod at it and all, but mostly I don't really care.

So yeah, your opinion is from Neptune on this. This is a fantastic show. Not without its faults, because there has never been a story told that was completely flawless. But it is a great show and will go down in history as just that, and there will always be a minority that just doesn't get it.
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And I wouldn't post a condescending gif or accuse you of trolling in response. I also do think that Breaking Bad is a great show, second best for what's on TV these days IMO. I'm concerned with the significant pacing issues because it harms the quality of what should be an even better show.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
Hank chased down Mike and Madrigal's men this entire season while combing through the remains of Gus's legacy.

And it's called "irony." It's a frequently used tool in drama in which expectations are built up and then subverted with an unexpected twist. This is commonly considered to be interesting, surprising, shocking, and/or humorous, depending on the context.




Nah, I think I won't jump to conclusions because I dislike a show.
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And Blue Meth is still being made and he's no close to get to the bottom of it. All his 10 clues were murdered. 3 months has passed and obviously the case is long cold. Oops, we want X to happen right now even though we did no proper work beforehand so we'll just drop Hank the evidence right into his lap. Irony? What was the irony here other than the lame attempt to have Hank get on Walt's trail minutes after Walt supposedly retires. Good to see you care more about unexpected twists than solid writing.

It's called Deux Ex Machina - when writers bluntly intervene to save\lead characters where they want (check last season's of Dexter for example, or indeed Hank being saved from death in S3). This is seen as one of the biggest sins a narrative can make and is considered as a testament of poor writing.

Mysteriously, when it occurs in BB the majority of the fanbase tries to sweep it under the rug or rationalize it in amazing ways, thought they take no issues with crucifying other shows who do the same.
 
It's not deus ex machina. Hank finding the book tells us something about Walt, and how at the end of the day, Walt himself was the last loose end.
 
Saty said:
And Blue Meth is still being made and he's no close to get to the bottom of it. All his 10 clues were murdered. 3 months has passed and obviously the case is long cold. Oops, we want X to happen right now even though we did no proper work beforehand so we'll just drop Hank the evidence right into his lap. Irony? What was the irony here other than the lame attempt to have Hank get on Walt's trail minutes after Walt supposedly retires. Good to see you care more about unexpected twists than solid writing.

It's called Deux Ex Machina - when writers bluntly intervene to save\lead characters where they want (check last season's of Dexter for example, or indeed Hank being saved from death in S3). This is seen as one of the biggest sins a narrative can make and is considered as a testament of poor writing.

Mysteriously, when it occurs in BB the majority of the fanbase tries to sweep it under the rug or rationalize it in amazing ways, thought they take no issues with crucifying other shows who do the same.
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It isn't anywhere close to deus ex machina. I really hate when people use this phrase so loosely. A coincidence is not the god in the machine. Coincidences are almost essential to creating a story that doesn't come off as overly contrived, especially in stories that focus on criminals and cops.

A deus ex machinas would have been if a brand new character popped into Hank's life and said after meeting Walt once "hey, that brilliant chemist brother in law of yours sure is kinda shifty isn't he? What if HE'S MAKING METH?!?!" Hank having all the pieces and a mistake on Walt's part forcing him to put them all together? That's completely reasonable and not at all a 'great sin of storytelling'.
 
Saty said:
And Blue Meth is still being made and he's no close to get to the bottom of it. All his 10 clues were murdered. 3 months has passed and obviously the case is long cold. Oops, we want X to happen right now even though we did no proper work beforehand so we'll just drop Hank the evidence right into his lap. Irony? What was the irony here other than the lame attempt to have Hank get on Walt's trail minutes after Walt supposedly retires. Good to see you care more about unexpected twists than solid writing.

It's called Deux Ex Machina - when writers bluntly intervene to save\lead characters where they want (check last season's of Dexter for example, or indeed Hank being saved from death in S3). This is seen as one of the biggest sins a narrative can make and is considered as a testament of poor writing.

Mysteriously, when it occurs in BB the majority of the fanbase tries to sweep it under the rug or rationalize it in amazing ways, thought they take no issues with crucifying other shows who do the same.
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Okay, so who in the BB fanbase is criticizing other shows for the same "flaws" in Breaking Bad. You do realize the BB fanbase is made up of many people and treating it as a single entity seems fairly dishonest, right?
 
Saty said:
And Blue Meth is still being made and he's no close to get to the bottom of it. All his 10 clues were murdered. 3 months has passed and obviously the case is long cold. Oops, we want X to happen right now even though we did no proper work beforehand so we'll just drop Hank the evidence right into his lap. Irony? What was the irony here other than the lame attempt to have Hank get on Walt's trail minutes after Walt supposedly retires. Good to see you care more about unexpected twists than solid writing.

It's called Deux Ex Machina - when writers bluntly intervene to save\lead characters where they want (check last season's of Dexter for example, or indeed Hank being saved from death in S3). This is seen as one of the biggest sins a narrative can make and is considered as a testament of poor writing.

Mysteriously, when it occurs in BB the majority of the fanbase tries to sweep it under the rug or rationalize it in amazing ways, thought they take no issues with crucifying other shows who do the same.
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The book is definitely not a deus ex machina, it was shown and used throughout the series, including this very episode. There was nothing about that book being in the bathroom of Walt's house that can be considered an unexpected direction.
 
Saty said:
And Blue Meth is still being made and he's no close to get to the bottom of it. All his 10 clues were murdered. 3 months has passed and obviously the case is long cold. Oops, we want X to happen right now even though we did no proper work beforehand so we'll just drop Hank the evidence right into his lap. Irony? What was the irony here other than the lame attempt to have Hank get on Walt's trail minutes after Walt supposedly retires. Good to see you care more about unexpected twists than solid writing.

It's called Deux Ex Machina - when writers bluntly intervene to save\lead characters where they want (check last season's of Dexter for example, or indeed Hank being saved from death in S3). This is seen as one of the biggest sins a narrative can make and is considered as a testament of poor writing.

Mysteriously, when it occurs in BB the majority of the fanbase tries to sweep it under the rug or rationalize it in amazing ways, thought they take no issues with crucifying other shows who do the same.
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Just stop watching the show if you don't like it man.
 
But it is a great show and will go down in history as just that, and there will always be a minority that just doesn't get it.
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There's nothing not to get. As i said, good and enjoyable show but is it worthy of the attitude most of its fans exhibit of 'Best show ever' that can do no wrong? Nope.

And then when someone is criticizing the show or pointing big flaws that really no need to point at and have to do with basic writing methods and competency most of the fanbase turns a blind eye and comes up with ways to justify it.

For all the subjectivity in the matter, there are still objective aspects about what passes for good and bad writing practices and i really can't understand how the ending can be seen as not a showcase of poor and blunt writing.
 
The book isn't a deus ex machina, it's just a lazy coincidence that either isn't consistent with Walt's character (who is meticulous about evidence) or is simply too on-the-nose (since the inscription is fucking retarded in that it gives away the exact details that only Gale and anyone who'd read Gale's notebook would need to piece things together).

Most importantly, though, it's boring.

Still love the show.
 
Vince Gilligan has mentioned on the podcast that he's not afraid to use coincidences. He said that if a coincidence help the main character of a TV show toward making his goal easier, then it is bad writing, so he tends to avoid those, but if it impedes the main character - as this one is doing - that it is fine as long as it meshes with the rest of the story. It's really up to the viewer if it did that. I loved the ending of this season, but people have opinions, yo.

There's a difference between a coincidence and a deus ex machina. It's like the TDKR thread all over again.
 
Saty said:
It's called Deux Ex Machina - when writers bluntly intervene to save\lead characters where they want (check last season's of Dexter for example, or indeed Hank being saved from death in S3). This is seen as one of the biggest sins a narrative can make and is considered as a testament of poor writing.
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I fucking love it when people use the phrase "deus ex machina" when they have absolutely no idea what it means.

A crack DEA agent never before mentioned suddenly bursting into Walt's house and saying "I used my super scanner to figure it out... Heisenberg!" would be a deus ex machina. A previously established danger (Walt's brother-in-law is a DEA agent and Walt makes drugs) and a previously established connection (Walt has a book from Gale, Hank obsessed over Gale's murder and has a notebook in which Gale talks about a "W.W.") came together and produced the logical result: Hank knows.
 
Dr Eggman said:
It's not deus ex machina. Hank finding the book tells us something about Walt, and how at the end of the day, Walt himself was the last loose end.
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The amount of times I read people using the terms deus ex machina and Mary Sue incorrectly on the internet is hilarious.

EmCeeGramr said:
I fucking love it when people use the phrase "deus ex machina" when they have absolutely no idea what it means.
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Exactly what I'm talking about.
 
When you naysayers thought Hank was gonna find out about Walt, how did you exactly imagine it?
 
rekameohs said:
Vince Gilligan has mentioned on the podcast that he's not afraid to use coincidences. He said that if a coincidence help the main character of a TV show toward making his goal easier, then it is bad writing, so he tends to avoid those, but if it impedes the main character - as this one is doing - that it is fine as long as it meshes with the rest of the story. It's really up to the viewer if it did that. I loved the ending of this season, but people have opinions, yo.

There's a difference between a coincidence and a deus ex machina. It's like the TDKR thread all over again.
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There's even people arguing over how necessary flashbacks are!
 
EdibleExplosives said:
The amount of times I read about deus ex machina and Mary Sue characters on the internet is hilarious.
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Remember that bullshit first episode where Walt just so coincidentally has a boisterous and adventurous DEA brother-in-law willing to give ride-alongs, and just so coincidentally has a former student who makes and deals drugs that gives him a way into the business? And later, he coincidentally happens to live in the same city as other high-profile meth dealers in the Southwest?

Deus ex Mary Sues all over the place.
 
maharg said:
A deus ex machinas would have been if a brand new character popped into Hank's life and said after meeting Walt once "hey, that brilliant chemist brother in law of yours sure is kinda shifty isn't he? What if HE'S MAKING METH?!?!" Hank having all the pieces and a mistake on Walt's part forcing him to put them all together? That's completely reasonable and not at all a 'great sin of storytelling'.
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No, no, no. A DEM in this show would have to be something like Walt's machines exploding inside a house, breaking it bad, with the police being outside the (possibly a neighbor's) door.
 
maharg said:
It isn't anywhere close to deus ex machina. I really hate when people use this phrase so loosely. A coincidence is not the god in the machine. Coincidences are almost essential to creating a story that doesn't come off as overly contrived, especially in stories that focus on criminals and cops.

A deus ex machinas would have been if a brand new character popped into Hank's life and said after meeting Walt once "hey, that brilliant chemist brother in law of yours sure is kinda shifty isn't he? What if HE'S MAKING METH?!?!" Hank having all the pieces and a mistake on Walt's part forcing him to put them all together? That's completely reasonable and not at all a 'great sin of storytelling'.
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Oh come on. Let's use the most obvious example, Walt's plan in S4. That's the most contrived set of actions and response I've seen on an acclaimed show like Breaking Bad.

I don't believe anyone thinks that the writers are making a bad show, only that they find barely-acceptable excuses to stall or speed up the plot that elicit no comment.

Note: not arguing that some of Saty's wording isn't incorrect.
TrumanBurbank said:
Just stop watching the show if you don't like it man.
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The most typical and ridiculous straw man brought out when anyone doesn't like an aspect of a product or service.
Dr Eggman said:
When you naysayers thought Hank was gonna find out about Walt, how did you exactly imagine it?
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Happening at least two seasons ago as the result of actual police work, not another insight from god to Hank. Especially not after eight episodes of relatively sitting on his ass.
 
I hope people are still arguing about this in next July.

Vince Gilligan is a genius for putting a moment like that right before an extended break.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
Remember that bullshit first episode where Walt just so coincidentally has a boisterous and adventurous DEA brother-in-law willing to give ride-alongs, and just so coincidentally has a former student who makes and deals drugs that gives him a way into the business? And later, he coincidentally happens to live in the same city as other high-profile meth dealers in the Southwest?

Deus ex Mary Sues all over the place.
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Fuuuuck, the show is now ruined for me. Flaws all over the place yo.


Dr.Acula said:
Wasn't that the paper towel dispenser Walt had smashed previously?

Still, seems to be alluding to cancer.
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Yep, it was the same one.
 
beastmode said:
Note: not arguing that some of Saty's wording may not be off.The most typical ridiculous straw man brought out when anyone doesn't like an aspect of a product or service.Happening at least two seasons ago as the result of actual police work, not another insight from god to Hank.
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Finding it out through police work would have been boring from a narrative stance. It had to be discovered in some way through Walt and Hank's personal life. I don't know if the book was perfect, but it had to be some clue left around the house or communicated through their conversation.

rekameohs said:
I hope people are still arguing about this in next July.

Vince Gilligan is a genius for putting a moment like that right before an extended break.
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Vince Gilligan is a genius... but I think a cliffhanger was pretty much mandated by the circumstance :P
 
So given the fact that professionally and personally, pursuing Walt would ruin Hank's life, I'm of the opinion that he breaks bad next season and pursues Walt as a sort of vigilante.
 
Interesting that the last two times Walt has been to the doctor we never know the results. Would it say too much about his character if they did?
 
Dr Eggman said:
It's like season 5 never existed.
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Like he wasn't proving most of the DEA wrong about a respectable, local businessman being a violent drug kingpin at the end of S4 while disabled. After this he takes (fairly uncharacteristically) a desk job and finds his next huge piece of evidence while sitting on a toilet.
 
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