So now it is a different era, and if it was still needed then they would understand?
Poll: 57 percent of Millennials oppose racial preferences for college, hiring
- Thread starter Antiochus
- Start date
- Status
So now it is a different era, and if it was still needed then they would understand?
Mammoth Jones
Member
I would argue affirmative action is much more important in primary education than it is at college level. A knock on effect of early affirmative action would (hopefully, but probably not) that you'd need less of it at a higher level.
But where AA is most important, and where I despair when people I know cry foul about it, is in the selection of school teachers. Children need a broad range of role models, covering ethnicity, gender, personality and economic background.
We have quite a problem in the UK right now with a complete lack of male teachers for the younger children. It's a very real result of "men are pedophiles" patriarchy culture, so schools are begging for more male teachers for that younger age bracket. Of course, when the men then start applying, the tests and checks they have to go through...
But where AA is most important, and where I despair when people I know cry foul about it, is in the selection of school teachers. Children need a broad range of role models, covering ethnicity, gender, personality and economic background.
We have quite a problem in the UK right now with a complete lack of male teachers for the younger children. It's a very real result of "men are pedophiles" patriarchy culture, so schools are begging for more male teachers for that younger age bracket. Of course, when the men then start applying, the tests and checks they have to go through...
This is pretty good.
So? You assume that their opposition is because they can't possibly understand why it was put in place originally and are therefore just completely naive.
Its entirely possible that the opposition stems from the fact that affirmative action is a failed program.
AA is the "War on Drugs" for racism. Letting more minorities into college doesn't do shit if you fail to prepare those kids to go to college. Making companies hire token minorities doesn't improve the chances of those minorities growing into a truly competitive role with their white counterparts. Requiring minority participation on construction jobs doesn't give a minority owned company a hand up, it gives it a niche market it can never grow out of.
The need to improve the racial divide is readily apparent to everyone. The methods by which AA attempts to do that have failed.
The only real solution to bridging the achievement gap is to destroy the gaps at their core, at home and early in life.
Instead of the dark skinned reservations we've turned our inner cities into across this country we need to promote both minority migration to suburbs and white migration to inner cities.
Instead of bitching about schools based on standardized test numbers we need to look at the real decider of academic success, average family income of a school. We need to break down the gentrified academic system where all of resources are held by predominantly white, suburban neighborhoods. You do that by redistricting schools into a more balanced model throughout cities and by walling off the affluent from the lion's share of gov't. assistance they currently receive and instead push it to the districts you can't balance in rural America and in the heart of major cities.
Right now AA is putting a band-aid on a bullet hole. If the only time we're going to try and bridge this gap is 16+ years into a person's life you've already failed.
Yes, because all white people have benefited from slavery.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Not just the UK. When I was younger my dream was to be an elementary school music teacher. My mom was a teacher and I really respected how she was able to help kids that might not come from the best background. Really have an impact in their lives.
But being a large Black male it was made clear to me many many times that I'd be looked at sideways trying to be around little kids like that.
I chose a different profession...
Mammoth Jones
Member
When you have an entire country built on the backs of slaves you can't just whitewash the historical context of having an entire class of working people not getting paid shit. It's kinda one of the things that made America so wealthy to begin with.
And not just slavery. How about the century after where Black people were forcibly denied the same opportunities of employment, earning, education? Where they were literally told "No, you can't work/live/go to school here". Nothing but menial manual labor..and underpaid at THAT. And Christ help you if you tried to push into their insulated white bubble. The threats of violence and death were VERY real.
It's just a matter of white privilege.
As much as I hear people bitch about affirmative action I don't often hear viable alternatives except "level playing field!" without acknowledging that the playing field has been historically fucked for centuries. But when that gets brought up it's the same ole dodges and bullshit.
Prove it. I've seen first hand Black people settle very nicely into the middle class and live successful lives due to being given the chance (and that's all AA is...it's a fucking chance.) Now granted my personal anecdotes aren't any proof to the contrary but you made this statement so the burden of proof is on you.
You keep saying that but not explaining how. AA was never designed to fix all of the racial problems. It was a niche idea to deal with a very specific problem. Despite there being viably qualified Black people for schools/jobs they just kept happening to not get selected for them. Hmmmm...surely an oversight!
This doesn't take into account the reasons WHY people can only afford to live in the inner cities. Why they're on public assistance living in the projects? Saying "Hey, let's all move and live together" isn't realistic. It also doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being reality. Sure you'll get bouts of gentrification here and there but no one wakes up and says "Man, I can't deal with this safe suburban house...I'm gonna move to Compton".
I completely 100% agree with this and am very very very happy to see someone else saying this. I rarely see this point made. School district funding goes by property tax. So wealthy neighborhoods have wealthy schools. And piss poor neighborhoods have piss poor districts. But what's really going to determine if you have your head in the sand is: Do you really think that design was unintentional?
It's a hell of alot better than what came before it. But I'll make you a deal: Let's implement all those other solutions FIRST and then we can say AA is outdated and no longer needed. But don't sit here and say we should ditch AA now and hope we deal with the other problems later....
not touching this one
Nvm, jones said it for me. People are focusing too much on black people in here, though.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Yup. People tend to forget allllll the other people affirmative action helps. But only apply those criticisms towards Blacks.
When we can deal with the reasons why that's the case we'll be one step closer to really confronting and solving the "race" issue here in the United States.
In that comic, the white and black people are not meant to indicate every individual black or white person, but individualized representations of white people and black people as groups in order to show the dynamic of the relationship between black people and white people as groups over the years.
And if you're going to act like the comic isn't an accurate representation of the way white people have benefited from centuries of enslaving, subjugation, disenfranchisement, marginalization, and Lord knows what else I'm forgetting of black people, and the way many white people today act as if none of those things effect their relative positions in society - even if those benefits were more indirect for some individuals - I don't know how to help you.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Put "his fault" in flipflops and jorts, and this will be perfect.
entremet
Member
Oh, Millenials.
I'm not black, but growing in NYC and seeing how underserved the move academically motivated kids are by a school system that is overcrowded and underfunded, and many coming from single parent household, where they must fend for themselves, I have no problems with affirmative action.
I knew kids who worked all year round in fast food joints, a lot too tired to focus their all on academics, though many still passing respectability, because their household needed the money.
Moreover, the SATs, which are still amongst the biggest qualifier for the top 10 schools, just in terms of being considered, have a huge industry of test preparation services. These services are very expensive and are not taken advantage by lower class minority populations.
And let's not talk about when college begins. Upper and middle class students have the advantage of taking non-paid internships, another controversial topic, and improve their networks and career experience. Those little advantages add up.
I'm not black, but growing in NYC and seeing how underserved the move academically motivated kids are by a school system that is overcrowded and underfunded, and many coming from single parent household, where they must fend for themselves, I have no problems with affirmative action.
I knew kids who worked all year round in fast food joints, a lot too tired to focus their all on academics, though many still passing respectability, because their household needed the money.
Moreover, the SATs, which are still amongst the biggest qualifier for the top 10 schools, just in terms of being considered, have a huge industry of test preparation services. These services are very expensive and are not taken advantage by lower class minority populations.
And let's not talk about when college begins. Upper and middle class students have the advantage of taking non-paid internships, another controversial topic, and improve their networks and career experience. Those little advantages add up.
CyclopsRock
Member
I agree. But then, I - and presumably you - also agree that companies should be allowed to hire or not hire people on the grace of race, gender, age etc.
It's probably worthwhile noting that students selected through the AA system end up performing on par once in the workforce with the white students that would otherwise be there if they weren't replaced by an AA student.
That is - a black student who's had his GPA score of 3.1 adjusted to a GPA score of... 3.4 (I'm picking these numbers out of a hat because I'm not entirely familiar with the GPA system), on average that student would perform equally well compared in job performance to a white student that has scored 3.4 and is now out in the work force.
Essentially, the black students end up catching up - because college provides them with the opportunity to engage in a culture outside of the typical black community that through whatever reason is proven to drag down academic performance.
When you consider the positive influence a college graduate can bring back to a black community - role model, money, values, etc - AA been a good thing is a pretty easy conclusion to make.
With that said... I wonder if blacks in higher SEC groups are similarly afflicted with the problems that would exist in more impoverished inner-city suburbs. That is whether the lowering of the score occurs because of systemic racism, or whether it occurs because of systemic racism + the same thing but for poverty.
If so, then you would definitely want to ensure that AA applicability is modified for by economic concerns; essentially the whole idea is to recognize that there's this racial/social/economic testing deficit and account for it - so that we try to end up with the best people out in the work force possible.
I mean that's if you're to look at it from a purely meritocratic standpoint - but in fact, there are reasons for wanting AA beyond just pure meritocratic output (such as the aforementioned positive influence of minority communities).
On the flipside, there's a reverse AA thing going on for Asians; a quota system that limits how many people can get through. I mean I get that colleges are trying to go for well-rounded candidates, not just the people that can study their asses off all day... but it'd be good if that sort of selection criteria was made explicit and transparent... and not just used to implicitly favour donors and alumnis... and other groups that are disproportionately white through historical circumstance.
That is - a black student who's had his GPA score of 3.1 adjusted to a GPA score of... 3.4 (I'm picking these numbers out of a hat because I'm not entirely familiar with the GPA system), on average that student would perform equally well compared in job performance to a white student that has scored 3.4 and is now out in the work force.
Essentially, the black students end up catching up - because college provides them with the opportunity to engage in a culture outside of the typical black community that through whatever reason is proven to drag down academic performance.
When you consider the positive influence a college graduate can bring back to a black community - role model, money, values, etc - AA been a good thing is a pretty easy conclusion to make.
With that said... I wonder if blacks in higher SEC groups are similarly afflicted with the problems that would exist in more impoverished inner-city suburbs. That is whether the lowering of the score occurs because of systemic racism, or whether it occurs because of systemic racism + the same thing but for poverty.
If so, then you would definitely want to ensure that AA applicability is modified for by economic concerns; essentially the whole idea is to recognize that there's this racial/social/economic testing deficit and account for it - so that we try to end up with the best people out in the work force possible.
I mean that's if you're to look at it from a purely meritocratic standpoint - but in fact, there are reasons for wanting AA beyond just pure meritocratic output (such as the aforementioned positive influence of minority communities).
On the flipside, there's a reverse AA thing going on for Asians; a quota system that limits how many people can get through. I mean I get that colleges are trying to go for well-rounded candidates, not just the people that can study their asses off all day... but it'd be good if that sort of selection criteria was made explicit and transparent... and not just used to implicitly favour donors and alumnis... and other groups that are disproportionately white through historical circumstance.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Asian people in this thread don't seem happy with it.
I don't understand why more money isn't invested in poorer areas and why most people wouldn't be for it. It would directly help with crime rates (with a fix in the prison system) and safety in general. The poorest areas in the country are generally poor inner cities, Native American Reservations, Appalachian People, and here and there patches of areas where people are really poor (usually in a small town or country). With those areas I'm talking about the SUPER POOR.
That cartoon could easily be replaced with a Steel/Coal Company Owner and his workers or Mitt Romney and a whole creed of people.
Im pretty sure it was just AA haters spouting that. The only Asian person that revealed themselves said they don't care.
Asain people are just fine with it, as indicated earlier in the thread. By and large Asian Americans support AA.
Another thing to note is that there is a notion here that the definition of meritocracy is GPA + SAT/ACT + courses taken - socioeconomic status = college worthiness. That's simply not how colleges view it. There are a bunch of utilitarian reasons that colleges choose people -- as noted, trust fund babies, sports stars, and a whole host of others get preferential treatment. That's because those people bring intangible assets to the table -- sports stars, for example, raise the profile to the school and a good sports team brings in more donations. Trust fund babies also bring in money from their funds and often pay full sticker price for the school.
So, insofar as schools select based on merit they are actually selecting based on an different notion of merit than many people recognize. Reconciling the fact that our definition of merit and their definition of merit is a tough pill for many people to swallow, and it's easy to blame another for that gap.
IHaveCandy
Banned
We can't keep acting as if minorities are worse off intrinsically. It's ridiculous.
What?
Yeah, in America, we absolutely can. Cause regardless of the data point you decide to pull out, it's true.
If you're not a White, heterosexual, Christian, man, you've got a bit of an uphill battle in front of you.
You forgot the trait of being tall as well. Statistically speaking of course.
As a matter of fact should there be some kind of AA based on height? Heightism is a real issue you know.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I'm sick of this idea that we need to artificially create diversity. This notion that we need to make sure we all grew up around an equal amount of each race is absurd. I am against segregation or forced diversity in workplaces and schools. Every industry schools are not going to cryptically represent the same ratio of ethnicities. I'd much rather we all stop using the concept of race to identify people because it is a pretty crappy way to identify people as a group. Help the financially deprived. That should be our only concern.
Byakuya769
Member
And there we have it.
Short people are called faggots by a political party in America.
Short people aren't told they're better of for having been slave at one point.
Short people aren't told they cannot run for office because they don't believe a particular god exists.
Short people are called sluts when they get raped because they wore a short skirt.
Get the fuck outta here with this nonsense.
It has nothing to fucking do with enhancing diversity.
It has to fucking do with the fact that a particular group of people, who make up the majority population, have a privilege when it comes to employment and access to education that other groups do not have. Don't worry, them coloreds that can't talk too good aren't going to be forced to get a degree in English.
Fuckin' A.
IHaveCandy
Banned
That is not always the case. I would be described as a black, male, atheist, and I have never felt my race or religion has ever really hampered my success. I'm sure it has done so for others, but it is absurd to act like it does for all. It's fixing a problem with a butcher knife when a scalpel is needed. Frankly, this idea that all minorities are intrinsically at a disadvantage will just harbor excuses for failure. Financial status is a far bigger factor. Just worry about helping kids that are in lower income homes. That should be the only thing we do.
Dreamcaster
Banned
Morgan Freeman addresses racism.
Affirmative Action cuts both ways - it gives kids who might not otherwise qualify for certain schools a chance to go, but at the same time, many of these kids get in and are wholly unprepared for the the rigors of certain colleges. This was laid out in an analysis of blak law school students.
The gist of the paper is that by pushing some kids into more rigorous institutions, they end up failing or doing poorly, where had they entered an institution at their level of academic achievement, they would actually do better.
Affirmative Action is not always a help toe the students it purports to help, to the challenge is finding the right way to approach it as far as school admissions go.
Affirmative Action cuts both ways - it gives kids who might not otherwise qualify for certain schools a chance to go, but at the same time, many of these kids get in and are wholly unprepared for the the rigors of certain colleges. This was laid out in an analysis of blak law school students.
The gist of the paper is that by pushing some kids into more rigorous institutions, they end up failing or doing poorly, where had they entered an institution at their level of academic achievement, they would actually do better.
Affirmative Action is not always a help toe the students it purports to help, to the challenge is finding the right way to approach it as far as school admissions go.
Just because you haven't had an issue doesn't mean society doesn't have a problem.
That's the issue. That's the point of AA. To fix a couple hundred year gap. It's not perfect, but even thought it exists it doesn't jump the gap so much that it damages society.
Don't worry, it's not like a Mexican that can't read is getting into Harvard.
IHaveCandy
Banned
There are plenty of white people that we are poorly educated. If the problem is lack of education, help everybody get a good one at an early age, not just minorities. Poor white kids need just as much help.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Doesn't helping all poor kids do that? Do you think wealthy minorities need help more than poor white kids?
Freaking this. I don't know where the racism lies in thinking that both a poor white kid and a poor black kid needs more affirmative action than a rich black one, even if poor blacks are far more numerous than poor whites. Meritocracy works by levelling the field for individuals, rather social groups.
I agree.
Now we're talking about fixing the United States public education system. Which is a distinctively different problem compared to AA as applied to college and employment.
On that note, however, you still have a portion of minorities who are stuck in high schools with a history of low funding due to the way the system is set up. Take a drive through Detroit sometime. Or, Baltimore.
A few hundred years of issues, and laws designed to protect the interests of ruling parties, isn't fixed by not deliberately targeting those issues.
Wealthy minorities, generally, are going to have access to things that poor minorities do not.
Poor minorities are going to be in a worse position than poor whites.
Even if you're a rich minority, you still have to deal with a whole set of issues poor whites wouldn't. Like, for example, a Black man can't get a job as easily, regardless of status, as a White convict.
Possibly this has been addressed in the past five pages, but this isn't a surprising result when you look at the way they worded it:
The point of affirmative action isn't to redress past grievances, it's to counteract discrimination here and now.
"Should we give minorities a freebie because we screwed them in the past?"
The point of affirmative action isn't to redress past grievances, it's to counteract discrimination here and now.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Just focus on helping ALL children that are needy and your problem is fixed. It's that simple.
captmcblack
Member
And poor white kids do get as much help,as has been outlined several times in this thread.
Poor white kids need help to overcome the shortcomings their poverty creates.
Minority kids need help to overcome the shortcomings their minority status creates.
If the argument is that minority status isn't something that creates shortcomings for people in American society, you are wrong.
soundscream
Member
Oh Morgan Freeman said we can stop racism if we stop talking about it.
Lock this thread up and we solve everything!
Lock this thread up and we solve everything!
timetokill
Banned
And yet, the way a lot of arguments for AA are phrased makes it sound like AA is basically reparations. I think that's why a lot of people shy away from it. The conversation is skewed, either way.
Doesn't work if the (honestly pro-racial equality) people running the meritocracy choose white over black consistently. Or choose "white-sounding" names over "minority-sounding" names consistently without even seeing the candidates' pictures. Racism is some crazy shit.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Race as a concept needs to die. There isn't a single good reason why we still consider each other white or black. The give off more disinformation than any real information.
No, it isn't. Really.
You ever worked in management? You ever seen an application for a job placed in the "don't call back" pile because of the name on the top? Or because the woman happened to by trying to have baby?
AA is more than just "helping Black people get that degree they're TOTALLY not qualified for."
This is true. There are probably several reasons for this:
-it's easier to craft an emotional appeal of the "makeup call" type than to go out and grab a bunch of stats etc.
-by framing it as about reparations, folks get to pat themselves on the back for being post-racial or whatever. If it's about current discrimination, we'd have to confront the fact that--surprise!--our society is still pretty racist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heightism#In_business
I think to be logically consistent you would have to support AA based on height as well.
A successful older black man says that racism isn't a problem any more? Unprecedented!
Actually, no, I don't.
AA is designed to help minorities not get passed up for employment and education opportunities where the otherwise would. You are saying that being "short" compared to being "tall" is a systematic disadvantage akin to what Mexicans or Women have to deal with. Your page doesn't mention being passed up for college or hiring.
Height based discrimination is a bad thing, sure. And there are already policies in certain areas to deal with that. However, short people don't have a couple hundred year history, and current reality, of dealing with a system that puts them behind from the start.
Unless you're saying that modern day Women and Blacks, for example, have the exact same level of difficultly in getting a job as somebody who is "short."
endresults
Member
I'm a fan of merit-based promotions, myself.
IHaveCandy
Banned
My minority status hasn't harmed me one bit. Clearly it isn't the case that all minorities are at an intrinsic disadvantage.
IHaveCandy
Banned
It's pretty insulting of you to act as if a large portion of white people are racist without any evidence.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Overweight people are often considered lazy when they aren't as well.
ElectricBlue187
Member
AA needs to be based on economic means and merit instead of ethnicity.
- Status