Microsoft Surface Tablet announced
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I think Office is one of the best selling points, but at the same time I am not sure if anyone doing serious academic or business work really wants to do that work with a touch interface. A Touch-enabled word processor sounds cool.....but touch-focused spreadsheets and databases do not seem so hot.
I think that is the problem. At this price point, anyone interested in productivity apps is better off just buying a $500 laptop. If the SurfaceRT were cheaper or if it could run native x86 apps, it would be so much easier to sell. SurfaceRT doesn't do enough to justify its pricepoint; SurfacePro does a lot but it's priced too far out of reach for students.
You're assuming that the chipset and display make up most of the cost of the unit. This doesn't seem to be the case, and there are other factors that are rising the price. You can't claim that Microsoft isn't using premium components when we're not even sure about the cost of the other parts of the device.
Factoring the amount of apps into the price is also a bit of a wash - a higher amount of applications shouldn't validate an increase the price.
So what makes up most of the cost of the unit?
How would I know? I'm saying that a lower-spec SOC and display could mean that there are other components raising the price rather than Microsoft skimping out on power.
VAPORMAG EVERYWHERE UP THIS BITCH
So because the parts that generally are the most expensive parts in a device are made up of cheap parts, it must be the case that other components cost more?
Souless_PJ
Banned
Nailed it right here IMO. Zune part 2.
Mechanical components also make up a large part of the cost. In the iPad they cost about $50, but I can see that figure being significantly higher in the Surface due to the complexity of the kickstand and other parts of the design.
brain_stew
Member
The display is always the single most expensive component in a tablet device. The SOC isn't nearly as expensive as the display but it is one of the single most expensive components in a tablet. I don't doubt the quality of the construction, but then that's hardly an area where Apple skimp either. The point is, if you're going to charge a premium for a tablet without an app library, then you better make sure it's actually premium hardware that you're selling.
As it stands, the Surface is specced quite similarly to the $400 iPad 2 in many key areas and yet for the base experience Microsoft expect customers to pay $200 more than the iPad 2. Why is anyone going to do that, when all the best tablets apps are only available on the iPad anyway?
Microsoft have got a lot of things right. The UI is fantastic, the hardware design is great but the specs and price are both worse than the competition and when you're fighting the against the uphill battle of a fantastic app library and millions of customers with serious buy in into a competing ecosystem, it's just not a realistic customer proposition.
brain_stew
Member
The surface without the touch cover is just another $500 tablet without any apps. Just like the dozens that have spectacularly failed before it.
Without the touch cover, the inclusion of Office becomes worthless as it isn't a Metro app.
Without the touch cover, the kick stand is just a nice extra, not something integral to the experience.
The touch cover is the USP of the device, there's a reason it's featured so prominently in the advertising. Without the touch cover, it isn't Surface. It's ridiculous that Microsoft are even selling a model of Surface without it, it's not as if its a high cost part either, it should be included as standard.
It's not the same base experience obviously, though you have to ask whether or not most consumers really think a slim keyboard is worth paying $200 extra and dealing with a smaller app marketplace. I gotta think that a lot of people would rather save money and deal with the hassle of software keyboard.
That's something I hadn't thought of. I don't suppose we'll know until the device launches, but how easy will it be to use Office without a keyboard and trackpad?
Surface supports USB mice and keyboards, so I wouldn't say Office is completely useless without the touch cover - it's just not as convenient.
Well the stand still has uses, like if you're to watch Netflix at your desk or youtube. Skype maybe? Not sure if that's an app for the RT version.
But yeah the keyboard is pretty important.
brotkasten
Member
It sucks on a touchscreen, but you can use any USB or Bluetooth keyboard or mouse you want.
brain_stew
Member
Its not a Metro app. There's been plenty of user reports on how it performs on other tablets, and they're not in any way favourable. It needs the touchpad and keyboard.
Except that most USB/Bluetooth devices will not be anywhere near as portable as the keyboard cover, and portability is the main selling point of most tablet devices. A USB keyboard will probably be pretty thick, and require you to carry around a USB cable. A Bluetooth device will be thick due to the space required to house a battery.
Yes, but then the original argument that you must have the touch cover to have the same "base experience" as iPad 2. I'd say the touch cover provides additional hardware functionality far superior to the iPad 2.
Put it in another way. If someone made a touch cover for iPad 2 and sold it at the same price, would people not buy it?
They make tons of keyboard covers for iPad. Really good ones, too. The Verge did a huge review on these, comparing like 12 different models.
I have never seen one used in the wild though.
Best one is probably the Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard Cover, but even that isn't as close to portable as Surface's.
Then again, it's cheaper and has actual physical keys instead of touch-recognition.
I'm just saying, the keyboard just seems like a rad accessory but not really a game-changer, especially not at this price.
Consider that the Logitech keyboard is about 2/3rd the weight of the iPad itself. Still, at this point, the information about both of Surface's keyboard covers are lacking.
I just had a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIJUiTlrGI
And well, it looks pretty terrible. It's more like a keyboard that snaps to your screen, and you have to detach it from the device and slot in your iPad to actually use it. Nothing like the touch/type covers at all IMO.
Google might bump the Nexus 7 to 32 GB at the original price for Christmas.
Kinda relevant to this thread.
Kinda relevant to this thread.
The "Touch Cover is overrated, I can get the same functionality for my iPad at a lower price" mirrors the argument of PC fans against Macs, IMO.
You can do a lot of things, but it just won't be as slick and usable.
It's not really the touch cover itself that makes keyboards a game changer in windows 8 anyway, its the fact that all the shortcuts work, alt tabbing works, typing is all you get on the other platforms, but it's easy to forget how much more you use a keyboard for than just that.
Except nobody has actually got to use the thing yet. I'm not saying the logitech is better than the Touch Cover in any way, don't worry.
I'm just saying the appeal of keyboards attached to tablets is probably not that high as many people in this thread seem to think it is.
The Faceless Master
Member
people are saying it's expensive because those $200-400 Android tablets are running the same Nvidia Tegra 3 SOC that's inside the Surface RT
i have never seen one in use outside of tv
brotkasten
Member
But can you use them as a skateboard?
McHuj
Member
Microsofts ego
The combination of a trackpad + keyboard makes it a godsend for anything involving text editing, though. That's why I can't use keyboards on the iPad - you need to touch the screen to select and edit text and it's really fumbly and frustrating.
Jzero
Member
Souless_PJ
Banned
But doesn't it get to the point that if the keyboard and touchpad are so integral to using the device properly that you might as well spring for an ultra book.
foodtaster
Banned
people are missing the point. microsoft isn't going to price the surface lower than the OEMs can match. give it a month and OEM's will announce RT tabs that are less than $500. heck there are some x86 tablets that are $500
I don't see why there wouldn't be a ~7" RT tablet for $200 soon.
Different use cases, IMO. I have an Ultrabook, and I'd still prefer a tablet in many cases.
IMO, the Touch Cover itself isn't something to argue about. It's the most elegant solution to typing on tablets yet, by far. Looks great, is perfectly integrated with the rest of the device, and by all accounts works great.
The real question is whether it's worth $120.
Competition in the RT space has been limited by Microsoft initially. I believe only a handful of OEMs were selected to make RT devices. Not sure when it will become a free for all, but I feel like I read early 2013?
What we see at launch are probably all we'll be seeing from Windows RT in 2012
Man you make me go all nostalgic on a smilie.
Are people defending the Surface RT in the last few pages actually going to fucking buy one?
Show me your preorder email. If you don't put your money where your mouth is you are just waste everbodys time.
Yup, let's ban hypotheticals and kill 80% of the NeoGAF discussions ;-)
Are you only ever talking about products you have right now? Are you only ever talking about products that perfectly fit your needs and never about products that might fulfil needs of others? Do you never talk to anyone who's un-/misinformed?
All these things are aspects of the discussion in here. And I don't think anyone in here is completely uncritical of Surface RT.
brotkasten
Member
RT was made to enable cheap mobile computing with "Windows". Lenovo said that it should be possible to sell RT devices at a $200-$300 price point.
And yet we have (or will get) 3 RT devices with Tegra 3 that are priced well over that.
Surface $499 w/o keyboard
Lenovo 11" Yoga $799
Asus VivoTab $599 w/o keyboard
What's the point?
Hard to go up, once you go down.
10" Widescreen tablets kinda suck to type on directly in my experience. I think a separate device is necessary.
Hey, sounds like a perfect policy to implement on the gaming side.
Your post is a waste of time.
This is what I feel is going on. OEMs are testing the waters to see at what price they can get away with
I am sure most gamers buy the games they defend. I fully intend to buy an Atom tablet and I don't ACTIVELY defend the other variants of W8 tablets.
I think its a productive rule if we live by it.
Well, it's a stupid rule. I don't see what purchasing has to do with it because it's still hypothetical until you actually own the device.
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