BruiserBear
Banned
My simple answer. No.
I believe it's quite possible the PS4 will be Sony's final game console.
I believe it's quite possible the PS4 will be Sony's final game console.
Is Sony's corporate culture in the right place to ensure PS4 is a success?
- Thread starter DeaconKnowledge
- Start date
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
These two sentinces are sort of amazing together. Bravo!
Chuck Norris
Banned
The actual reality is that they are closing in on 70 million sold with PS3, selling strong in all regions after seven years on the market, have all of the third party support available, have arguably the strongest and most diverse first party studio lineup heading into next gen and have been neck and neck with MS all gen.
Yes it has been humbling for them to be knocked down from the highs of PS2, but to act like they aren't in a position to make a strong statement on the direction of next gen is just inaccurate. Frankly, anything can happen next gen just like it did this gen
As for Vita. Vita is an incredible little piece of hardware, launched at a reasonable price point, into a market place that isn't that interested. It's that simple. 3DS faced exactly the same last year and arguably still is stagnating outside of Japan. The market changed very quickly in a short time.
Yes it has been humbling for them to be knocked down from the highs of PS2, but to act like they aren't in a position to make a strong statement on the direction of next gen is just inaccurate. Frankly, anything can happen next gen just like it did this gen
As for Vita. Vita is an incredible little piece of hardware, launched at a reasonable price point, into a market place that isn't that interested. It's that simple. 3DS faced exactly the same last year and arguably still is stagnating outside of Japan. The market changed very quickly in a short time.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
The problem is they spread themselves out too fucking much
They are Franchise Bloated
I understand it from the Gamer perspective of more content, differentiation, but it really dilutes the product
On the PS3 they had Uncharted + Killzone + Resistance + MAG + Warhawk as franchises
Rather focus on 1-2 main titles and make them superb, they stretch themselves out and try to accumulate sales though all of them
MS - Halo sells 10 Million Copies
Sony - Killzone + Resistance + MAG + Warhawk/Starhawk combined sell 8 million
That looks so weird
It takes Sony 5 titles to even get close to one title MS releases
You have to add Uncharted in some quasi-shooter way to match or surpass it, like the Sony Family scenario, so the Gun Shooter Genre
H_Prestige
Banned
Well, I think ps4 won't be a commercial flop like the vita, simply because Sony actually has a presence in the home console market and Nintendo is currently playing catch up in terms of dev support. Different situation.
Yeah, this really shows the incompetence of their execs. They should have known that was a losing move. Even if smartphones weren't around, Nintendo clearly had them cornered in the handheld space. MS knew not to enter, so why didn't Sony?
DUFFMCWALIN
Member
Your pretty right on except for one thing
SN. They have kicked Microsofts ass in that category for a while now. But yes they lack a focus and vision that they used to have.
SN. They have kicked Microsofts ass in that category for a while now. But yes they lack a focus and vision that they used to have.SniperHunter
Banned
they shouldn't have developed vita, it was a complete waste of everybody's resources
this years PS3 exclusive lineup was terrible, I haven't bought a single GOOD exclusive PS3 game this year....what the fuck happened?
If the major Sony first party devs are working on games for PS4 already, then it should be ok.
this years PS3 exclusive lineup was terrible, I haven't bought a single GOOD exclusive PS3 game this year....what the fuck happened?
If the major Sony first party devs are working on games for PS4 already, then it should be ok.
It's PS3's off year. Most developers have moved onto PS4 and/or Vita. PlayStation All Stars is your safe of grace.
scytheavatar
Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=498008
They say that their aim with the PS4 is to avoid problems involved in launching PS3 by creating something very affordable but that isnt a slouch. I interpret the specs as something that is not an over-engineering and that can fit the $400 price point.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Not many games ever sell Halo numbers
Even Halo is starting to struggle to make Halo numbers. The game was a phenomenon. Offering less variety doesn't somehow automatically equal having a Halo competitor
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
So, despite the expectation of repeating all the same mistakes, you think there's going to automatically be a different positive outcome in spite of it? How very Sony of you!
CadetMahoney
Member
pretty much.
Well, from this thread PSN is better than Live and something about 1st party exclusives being the only types of exclusives that matter means PS4 is guaranteed success.
The only change i believe they need to do is dump their existing marketing team and hire a new one... They lack so much in marketing and engaging people that its surprising that their products still sells.
Although one very interesting case study i read about sony successful marketing is of sony mobiles on facebook.. their facebook page is a nice surprise and showed that with little efforts lot of dedication and proper direction they have achieved very good results.. and i see it is showing in their balance sheet too.. atleast they are not revising down but revising up their mobile sales forecasts..
Although one very interesting case study i read about sony successful marketing is of sony mobiles on facebook.. their facebook page is a nice surprise and showed that with little efforts lot of dedication and proper direction they have achieved very good results.. and i see it is showing in their balance sheet too.. atleast they are not revising down but revising up their mobile sales forecasts..
I think the PS3 did try to be that savior to change the culture and philosophy for the company. Since the PS3 was a premium product, Sony didn't have a choice but to eat up their losses initially just to sell the system. But with the other electronics division within Sony floundering, especially with their flat screen TV's against the Samsung, the release of the PS3 could only do so much.
So my answer is I'm not sure. The videogame industry just isn't what it was for the past ten years. Even if Sony releases the PS4, I strongly believe it will be their last attempt when it comes to hardware consoles. Sony should invest more in Indie game companies who made innovative games like Thatgamecompany's Journey and be not afraid to try out new things.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
They need to fix their stupid fucking Corporate + Network Infrastructure
Stuff released in JP is different from NA which is different from EU
I mean that is really horrible
How can MS release it every fucking week on the clock, everywhere
Is it that fucking hard?
I say fire Jack, remove Grace, Put Yoshida as Overlord of Sony Stores, rather than just the studios
Kaz goes to do his CEO role, Yoshida gets full control of all 3 SCE sites, conforms them to 1
I hate that there's 3 different presidents, who then have 3 vice presidents, who have 3 minions under them, so lost in translation
Stuff released in JP is different from NA which is different from EU
I mean that is really horrible
How can MS release it every fucking week on the clock, everywhere
Is it that fucking hard?
I say fire Jack, remove Grace, Put Yoshida as Overlord of Sony Stores, rather than just the studios
Kaz goes to do his CEO role, Yoshida gets full control of all 3 SCE sites, conforms them to 1
I hate that there's 3 different presidents, who then have 3 vice presidents, who have 3 minions under them, so lost in translation
H_Prestige
Banned
Where did I say this?
Hardware is one half of the equation. Software is the other. Vita failed both. PS4 might fail hardware (depending on competition's offerings), but I don't expect software to be lacking, relative to the competition.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
I think you need to focus on exclusives people want. Just having them isn't enough. PS3 arguably has the most exclusives of any of the 3 console manufacturers.
See, that still strikes me as "also ran" territory. Microsoft has that sector locked up. Not saying Sony can't plant their flag there, but I think Sony really needs to focus on something that isn't already being monopolized by a competitor. Unless you're suggesting that they shouldn't go the FPS route instead angling for another genre entirely. As you said, they do have the cinematic single player locked up, but that hasn't proven anywhere near as successful. It isn't 1997 anymore.
PlayStation Mobile is a single global submission process. I expect that to carry over to PS4 because I can't imagine SCE is happy about the current process either.
According to Sony´s numbers they sold 2,6 million units of PS2 and PS3 less compared to the year before. Strong is relative.
Because Sony have strong 1st party studios I think the PS4 can launch with great software in its first year, also rumours with Sony going for skmething less confusing than the cell they will have 3rd parties onboard. So its a matter of Microsoft exclusives vs Sony exclusives, and lately Sony has been good with exclusives. We dont know what Sucker Punch, Guerilla Games team 2, Evolution, Polyphonic and Naughty Dogg Team 2 have been developing si ce their last game, I am sure they are developing aome vig PS4 exclusives.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Of course it's relative. PS3 sold 14 million last year, and hasn't had a price drop in a long time. If they manage to reinstate more momentum with the new redesign that will be even more impressive
The point is, PS3 is doing well. And in a strong position going to next gen. Basically the same position as MS is in heading into next gen.
Of course, but like H_ Prestige said, looking beefy on paper, but looking bland in reality demands a wide range of exclusives. I don't think I've bought one multiplat on PS3, and I don't see that changing with its successor.
and this is despite all their recent closures
one of the biggest things going into the PS4 is the death of the Vita. I think that even the most dedicated of "fans" have accepted that the Vita is dead at this point and that frees up a bunch of studios for PS4 development.
with SCE japan, bend etc working on the ps4 they're going to have a hell of a boost. they'll need it as well, because unlike with the ps3 no-one is expecting the ps4 to do well so third parties will be loathe to put exclusives on it
With all due respect i find this argument pretty silly.. i mean its not like that they have fixed 100 developers and they asked them to develop 10 games when they could only have developed 4 games..
I think sony is the only company which give each game team as much time as they want.. and they have games getting developed in 4 yrs, 3 yrs without any pressure from sony..
Problem i think is that not all developers are equal.. and secondly sony marketing.. and thirdly sony marketing..
they dont know how to market and hype their game.. some of the gems are not even getting deserving sales..
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
For overall company success, sure, corporate culture matters a lot, but for their gaming division, I'm not really sure how much it matters. They'll have good hardware that won't be too expensive this time, and they have studios that make great games and know how to use that hardware.
They've lost their ways in Marketing more than anything. Where Microsoft knew how to make people's eyes open with wonder, with ads for Gears, Halo or Kinect, SCE was for longest time just trying to repeat stuff that was working in the past, with not much success. They fell early, and there's no surefire formula for climbing back on top after that.
I think the bigger problem all the consoles will face in the next few years is the changing market, which IMO is what's making Vita do so much worse than PSP now, more than any lack of corporate culture on Sony's part.
They've lost their ways in Marketing more than anything. Where Microsoft knew how to make people's eyes open with wonder, with ads for Gears, Halo or Kinect, SCE was for longest time just trying to repeat stuff that was working in the past, with not much success. They fell early, and there's no surefire formula for climbing back on top after that.
I think the bigger problem all the consoles will face in the next few years is the changing market, which IMO is what's making Vita do so much worse than PSP now, more than any lack of corporate culture on Sony's part.
Their marketing is extremely poor they have all these exclusives. How many have crashed and burned this gen because they can't be assed to advertise and get their base excited.
Although I also think there userbase just doesn't give a fuck about most of the exclusives outside of GT,Uncharted,God of War and Killzone.
Although I also think there userbase just doesn't give a fuck about most of the exclusives outside of GT,Uncharted,God of War and Killzone.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Early exclusives and new IPs will be a big deal
Somebody will develop the next Gears of War in that space that sells consoles and has a ridiculous attach rate. It's why I'm of the opinion that Naughty Dog should have held off on the Last of Us.
Agreed.
The fact that they have the guts to raise the price of the PS3 late during the gen tells me that they may still have the same "elite/corporate" attitude next gen.
sublimit
Banned
It really depends on whether Kaz is ready to make the gaming division the main focus of the company (it's one of their most successful endeavours after all) and whether they are prepared to be far more aggressive than they were this gen.This is not the PS or PS2 era,times have changed and the competition has changed.They need to invest more in the partnerships with third party studios and secure some important (key) exclusives.Loosing MH was unacceptable for Vita's future especially with a weak (in quality) launch line up.
But i think they are far more prepared now than they were before the PS3 launch.And Vita's launch was a great lesson to make them realize they are on their own and that they need to put their hands deep in their pockets in order to race with the competition.
They have already a very strong collection of first party studios (something both Nintendo and MS is lacking),PSN is turning into a very successful bussiness and the acquisition of Gaikai will fortify their future bussiness even more.
But i think they are far more prepared now than they were before the PS3 launch.And Vita's launch was a great lesson to make them realize they are on their own and that they need to put their hands deep in their pockets in order to race with the competition.
They have already a very strong collection of first party studios (something both Nintendo and MS is lacking),PSN is turning into a very successful bussiness and the acquisition of Gaikai will fortify their future bussiness even more.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
How do you see these things changing for PS4?
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Sales do matter though
Did we really need a Resistance 3 or Killzone 3 that quickly or even Starhawk
Sony isn't a charity, they might make their money back via slow burn, but making droplet noises in a huge fucking ocean that is the video game industry doesn't help
They should use resources to have 2-3 main games that all studios help/work out
Then if titles sell boatloads, you subsidize pet projects for the studios
It's like Sony is held hostage by their own studios
Look @ TLG, I mean come the fuck on, even GT to a point
At least Santa Monica/Naughty Dog deliver in fucking spades
They should get the lions share, if they fuck up, other studios with-in their eco-system have a chance to shine over take
Create competition with-in or have synergy that studios talk to each other and give advice
Sony shows themselves off as a Melting Pot, while really they are like a salad bowl, each section offed and sometimes mixed together
thehypocrite
Member
I think you are discounting the areas in which they have started to turn it around PSN+/ Sony Mobile/Pictures/Cameras. I do admit they need to prove themselves with hardware lunches after the PS3 and Vita initial performance, but they're trending up as a company.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Sony is doing a lot better in other facets, specifically the smartphone arena with their "One Sony" initiative, however this thread was mostly focused towards gaming which is still a wreck.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Resistance 3 came out after three years. Killzone 3 after two.
Sony studios do all talk to each other and give advice. Sony Santa Monica is helping Team ICO with their game right now
Your criticisms are flimsy and ill directed, I think you're just throwing criticisms at the wall and hoping something sticks
Please quantify how it is a wreck?
What worries me most about the PS4 is the state of Sony first party games. Everyone always mentions it as a strength and they do have a bunch of franchises, but none of them are particularly good. Uncharted 3 was disappointing, God of War is milked to death and no longer exciting, GT5 has been significantly outdone by Forza and Criterion, resistance, infamous and killzone are alright but no one buys them. They release a ton of 7/10 or 8/10 level first party games with no franchise having an impact like Gears or Halo. I think the hardware will be fine but I have no confidence in Sony to release quality exclusives for it or to have a functional UI.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Some things I think will change for the better, and some for the worse.
For the better, they won't have crazy expensive components there that will bleed them money forever. BR is now cheap stuff, and there won't be insane money sink into CPU R&D. They'll be able to sell good hardware for comparably cheap and not lose tons of money on every unit sold.
For the worse, I see the whole market going against the consoles right now, a sort of a sea change where right now your average laptop can be plugged into a TV with a standard cable, and put out graphics that are better than any of the consoles. Needless to say, said laptop is better than a console for everything else, in every way imaginable too. They will need to make something that makes people sit and take notice again. Will they be able to do this with better graphics and more interesting controls, I don't know. I can really see all three console makers being quite nervous about this, to be honest.
BruiserBear
Banned
Yup. There have also been other examples of them not quite understanding the market, even after the PS3 launch price debacle.
The PSP Go showed they learned nothing, and even the Vita to some extent continues to show they're lacking an understanding of a lot of things.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Are you talking about sales or your opinion?
All I care about is their first party studios. 3rd party will get fixed next gen.
We know that most of their great first party studio like ND, SSM, GG, MM, SP now have two teams. They learned not to invest in B or C teams to make mediocre games. Instead investing in second team in their best studios, makes sense. Just look at The Last of Us
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Sony doesn't see what the competition around them is doing and that is there worst downfall
Forget about different division within the same company hate each other, look at how the overall business strategy is changing
Remember Sony and there synergy, everything under 1 tent, all accessible, they failed to deliver that, yet others have succeeded and are like 10 steps ahead
Google with Android and their Google Play + Nexus platform
Apple and the iOS which is streamlined into all it's product
Hell even MS has learned and quickly built Windows 8 as its ecosystem
Sony has half-assed it in all their product so far
My budget Vaio laptop has remote play access, I can access my PS3, but it's so archaic, it's pointless
All there services aren't intertwined
Most of the stuff just feels like "Oh cool" use twice and never again
Right now
Music/Video Unlimited should contending with Netflix/Rhaposody
Use PS+ as a subscription to give you everything all under the sun
Make your products talk to each other
You sole are the content provider
Why would anyone rent/buy something off the PS Video Store, when some can stream the damn movie off Nextflix from their PS3
Forget about different division within the same company hate each other, look at how the overall business strategy is changing
Remember Sony and there synergy, everything under 1 tent, all accessible, they failed to deliver that, yet others have succeeded and are like 10 steps ahead
Google with Android and their Google Play + Nexus platform
Apple and the iOS which is streamlined into all it's product
Hell even MS has learned and quickly built Windows 8 as its ecosystem
Sony has half-assed it in all their product so far
My budget Vaio laptop has remote play access, I can access my PS3, but it's so archaic, it's pointless
All there services aren't intertwined
Most of the stuff just feels like "Oh cool" use twice and never again
Right now
Music/Video Unlimited should contending with Netflix/Rhaposody
Use PS+ as a subscription to give you everything all under the sun
Make your products talk to each other
You sole are the content provider
Why would anyone rent/buy something off the PS Video Store, when some can stream the damn movie off Nextflix from their PS3
Chuck Norris
Banned
I'm talking about consoles
Both handhelds are being affected by a shrinking market. Has nothing to do with corporate culture.
Metallix87
Member
I think Sony is in a much stronger position now, actually, since I think it's very likely they'll be shifting all of their focus away from Vita and onto PS4. They've seen where they failed with PSP, PS3, and PSV, and will likely use that knowledge moving forward.
Their biggest obstacle right now? Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again: They long strong franchises that can move systems. Their four strongest franchises right now are Gran Turismo, Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank, and God of War. Obviously, those four should continue into next gen. Everything else should be either retired or given a lengthy break. This next generation will likely be all about the exclusives, since I suspect Wii U, PS4, and Xbox 720 will all be similar in terms of specs, or at least similar enough where multiplatform titles will release on all three. Luckily for Sony, they're in a much better position than Microsoft when it comes to exclusives for next-gen, since Microsoft has done a poor job this generation cultivating their IPs, IMO.
Their biggest obstacle right now? Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again: They long strong franchises that can move systems. Their four strongest franchises right now are Gran Turismo, Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank, and God of War. Obviously, those four should continue into next gen. Everything else should be either retired or given a lengthy break. This next generation will likely be all about the exclusives, since I suspect Wii U, PS4, and Xbox 720 will all be similar in terms of specs, or at least similar enough where multiplatform titles will release on all three. Luckily for Sony, they're in a much better position than Microsoft when it comes to exclusives for next-gen, since Microsoft has done a poor job this generation cultivating their IPs, IMO.
I think they learnt, will not be seeing resistance or war/starhawk on PS4
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Everything Sony does is affected by their culture. Everything any company does is affected by their culture.
I can understand this perspective, but for example, EA just announced that Battlefield 3 has hit 17 million units, while the peak of Call of Duty was 25 million.
Back in the Bad Company 1 days, they maxed out at 2.5 million copies.
I don't think many people would consider this a failure.
If they can prop up something like Killzone or a new IP as a 7 million unit selling FPS, that would be less than Halo, but it would also put them in a good competitive position, and raises the potential of getting people who would buy an Xbox 720 to either also buy a PlayStation 4 or perhaps even buy a PlayStation 4 instead.
I feel this was even a fair share of the approach Microsoft took to trying to fight Sony when they first entered the market. Sony had Metal Gear so Microsoft brought Splinter Cell. Sony had Final Fantasy so Microsoft brought Elder Scrolls, Fable KotOR. Sony had Devil May Cry so Microsoft brought Ninja Gaiden. Sony had Gran Turismo so Microsoft brought Forza. They did also come in with a bit of their own direction with Halo, but that was in addition to trying to have "answers" to the games their competitor was pushing.
If we assume Sony has the best cinematic singleplayer games, that doesn't mean they shouldn't also try to compete heavily against their competitor's biggest advantage. They can certainly try to find a third unique angle as well, but not trying to address their competitor at all seems a bit unwise to me.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Did we really need them though
That is what I'm saying
If Resistance 1 sold Good, and 2 sold Meh, who goes, Yeah do 3, which sold worse than 2!
You role out KZ2 to success, but the KZ3 Beta turned off so many users, but words weren't heeded, lackluster sales again
Sooner or later there is writing on the wall, Sony is to stubborn too learn