"I see no problem," said the Frog, "with the chef placing us into this pot of warm, salted water and turning on the gas."
"The temperature is currently quite clement."
Alen Ladavac, Croteam's CTO, comments on Windows 8
- Thread starter angular graphics
- Start date
"I see no problem," said the Frog, "with the chef placing us into this pot of warm, salted water and turning on the gas."
"The temperature is currently quite clement."
bigtroyjon
Member
I thought we were talking about Windows 8 and how much it sucked.
None of this is the problem. Your attempts at deflection are transparent.
The issue is that you lose control of your own PC.
Please tell me in your own words how it is good for me that I can not simply write an application that makes use of all the features of my own OS, on my own PC.
because Windows RT is the IOS competitor.... and IOS has the same restrictions
so you know....
also having a virus on a tablet is a much bigger deal than a PC right now really because A/V software for the RT tabs doesn't exist. So ms lock it down
virus on pc still bad but there is software to help prevent it
Desktop apps can't be sold through the store but they can be listed on the store with a direct link to the purchase page.
ok what, seriously. Tell me how you lose control of your PC because of metro?
i am intrigued
if its for yourself? You can
load up visual studio, build the metro app, install your dev certificate
if Microsoft really is dumb enough to put everything through its app store only then yes this is bad, but they won't do it. If anyone is going to do that its apple because apple is generally 1000x worse on this shit (but the app store on ios is fine). Apple isn't going to do it neither is MS.
I could be wrong, doubt i am.
For example right, Visual Studio 2012 you don't buy in the Microsoft store, they fucking sell it elsewhere. I mean if they wanted to hardcore go down this path all their shit would be in the app store only.....
they want to sell apps that will work on winph8 win rt and win 8 form the one store. and ultimately, guess what, the next Xbox is going to have this as well. Microsoft has invested to much in it for it to be ignored for the XB
I can't imagine why any game would want a live tile. I mean, it's not as if games sell DLC, update leaderboards or do anything else to try to draw you into their community or multiplayer these days.
Truly, there would be absolutely no two-tiered system on Windows 8 between two games, one displaying a dull, lifeless tile icon and the other, having paid it's Microsoft tax, displaying that your friend had just beaten your highscore, or that they were currently in game, or that it was a double XP weekend....or they were having a DLC sale...or there was new DLC out...or.. or...
Truly, there would be absolutely no two-tiered system on Windows 8 between two games, one displaying a dull, lifeless tile icon and the other, having paid it's Microsoft tax, displaying that your friend had just beaten your highscore, or that they were currently in game, or that it was a double XP weekend....or they were having a DLC sale...or there was new DLC out...or.. or...
Vol5
Member
Why should anyone adhere to anything MS dictates?
It's meant to be an open platform. Kinda pointless anyway considering the array of PC hardware that's available.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
So basically, his entire rant is based on speculation of what might happen with Windows 9, not with an actual, factual issue with Windows 8? Can you concede that?
Those standards make for a better user experience.
bigtroyjon
Member
Anyone with at least half a brain would ignore that. The EU would never allow it to happen.
It is called foresight... use it!
See the bold? He's obviously just saying that you cannot download any apps from the internet, ever, Windows Store or no. The Windows store process must mean that Microsoft then mails you a DVD, we can't possibly take into account the rest of what he just said because we're only allowed to read the bolded bit.
Alternately, Choc is a tosser and/or mentally disabled.
That is what people hope, but it is a bad idea to base all your actions on what a gov might do.
He clearly has an issue with both, current microsoft practice and what it points to... Its not rocket science, you dont need the rosetta stone to translate what he wrote.
if its for yourself? You can
load up visual studio, build the metro app, install your dev certificate
if Microsoft really is dumb enough to put everything through its app store only then yes this is bad, but they won't do it. If anyone is going to do that its apple because apple is generally 1000x worse on this shit (but the app store on ios is fine). Apple isn't going to do it neither is MS.
I could be wrong, doubt i am.
For example right, Visual Studio 2012 you don't buy in the Microsoft store, they fucking sell it elsewhere. I mean if they wanted to hardcore go down this path all their shit would be in the app store only.....
they want to sell apps that will work on winph8 win rt and win 8 form the one store. and ultimately, guess what, the next Xbox is going to have this as well. Microsoft has invested to much in it for it to be ignored for the XB
It's funny you bring up Visual Studio when at one point Microsoft was intending to remove support for developing standard desktop applications in the Express edition.
hrmmm interesting. Wonder if PC gaming devs will do this.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
This isn't a political debate, it's the internet. You can't just make wild unsourced claims without people calling you out on your bullshit.
Please tell me if something is stopping a developer from releasing a free companion application on the Windows Store that would do everything you mention above.
If not, all I am seeing from the plethora of belly aching developers is a lack of imagination.
Chiaroscuro
Member
That is not exactly true, as far as I understand. While tile applications has to come from Windows Store, devs do not need to follow MS certification unless they want to release a "Live" game. You can put anything in the store, including links to your own webpage/store (Capcom is doing that) and devs are not forced to use MS billing system (which takes a charge) but can you a third party solution or even your own.
And the banned mature issue was already resolved days ago. It was a misunderstanting of Europe Rating System.
Some of his points are valid (tiled applications), but others are really overeacting.
What is so far fetched about what he is saying? Micrsoft is going in one direction, and its not stupid to extrapolate from that to where they may end up, and be worried....
Srsly, can you read what he wrote? Is it in arabic for you or something? use google translate.
Base it on what businesses would do then? Making W9 completely closed would kill most interest from the most important market.
They can't. It's an exception for browsers only.
bigtroyjon
Member
MS gets fined billions of dollars for not giving people a choice on which initial browser gets installed on their computer(just happened again). You really think there is a chance they are going to allow MS to not give people a choice where they download all programs from?
Use your brain please.
He said may be removed!
That is not something you need to source!
There is really no reason to be hostile over wild speculation.
Actually I'd be interested in knowing why someone thinks Microsoft doesn't want an increasingly walled garden approach with their OS software, at least for the versions of their OS intended for home use. Because from a business perspective being able to leverage your unrivalled market dominance into an additional revenue stream that also segues into the rapidly increasing tablet/smartphone market makes perfect sense.
I understand fully what the dude's problem is. My post was more concerned with his implication that somehow MS has tried to hide how "Metro" apps can be installed on a device. You don't have to dig deep in any documentation to get this information. It diminishes arguments in my point of view when silly stuff like that is in there.
Chiaroscuro
Member
And the key really is "Live" tile. Live as animated. You can download an application from the Internet and place a normal tile in your screen. Devs can even install their games from links inside games sold in the Windows Store. I have installed Bad Piggies (which is not a Live title) from inside Angry Birds Space (which is a Live title) something I would think MS would not allow, but they do.
So he is really complaining about animated icons? What a CEO.....
And putting Skyrim and other games into the mix is just to confuse the reader, those games can be in the Windows Store. Bad writing is just bad writing. Back to school, CEO.
So he is really complaining about animated icons? What a CEO.....
And putting Skyrim and other games into the mix is just to confuse the reader, those games can be in the Windows Store. Bad writing is just bad writing. Back to school, CEO.
He's spot on. You may be able to run desktop applications now, but it's pretty obvious that MS wants to kill that functionality as soon as possible, so it wouldn't surprise me if it vanishes in future versions of Windows. It's bad enough that the Metro UI fucking sucks, but for it to be a walled garden too is doubly ridiculous.
People keep accusing Valve/Gabe of crying about a bit of competition, but the reality is that MS decided they wanted no competition, and opted to obstruct it (as they are now) and, eventually, remove it entirely.
People keep accusing Valve/Gabe of crying about a bit of competition, but the reality is that MS decided they wanted no competition, and opted to obstruct it (as they are now) and, eventually, remove it entirely.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
"MS will abandon the 360 in 2008. Aftet all, they abandoned the Xbox in 2004. All precedents are true."
MS is =/= MS will
Windows RT =/= Windows 8
Windows 8 =/= Windows 9
Speculation == fact
It's FUD.
Who's hostile? I'm not the one pretending to be unable to understand what's written because I . Apparently we aren't allowed to think anymore about the future.... cause you know, its not fact yet.
Its cute how developers airing concerns about a platform they use is baseless because it hasn't happened yet... that's the point... they are worried about what may happen.... but keep pretending that they're not allowed to cause you say so.
Well done for completely ignoring the word "possibility" in the initial quote. It is speculation and opinion, not a statement of fact.
Chiaroscuro
Member
MS could remove the desktop applications in the future, a meteor can crash on Earth and kill all gamers, etc. In the real of possibilities, those arguments are pointless.
It is clear that MS want to have a closed ecosystem in their tablet business (why not, since the main competitor does the same?). What about desktops and notebooks pcs? They will not be crazy to close the system as bad as you are thinking about.
I remember Windows 95 being bad for games/gamers.... DOS is all we need, you know. (I really miss those hours tweaking EMS/XMS memory to play that specific game).
My petition, MS should release DOS 2013. It will be the best scenario for gaming developers.
Grow up.
He has every right to state what he thinks might happen!
You are just upset that he has not share your reason less MS fanboying.
Chiaroscuro
Member
To discuss the possibility of a closed system in the future is ok, it is a valid concern. However, he is not also being a fair playing by stating as fact things that are not true right now and mentioning the game rating thing (which was already corrected). Those statements just confuse the reader and gives him an invalid support.
No one is playing far in this discussion, thus the whole point is worthless.
Is it possible to have a Window 8 thread without a bunch of people running in with Slippery Slope arguments?
I mean the apocalyptic scenario happens and MS stops unauthorized distribution of desktop apps (which isn't happening but let's pretend because everyone has active imaginations). Are we going to tell them to heed the warning of that failed iOS experiment? Or that the game console industry has been hurting game makers for the last 30 years? People will always prefer platforms like Linux? This is rather insane. I know people love to get into principal battles in the software community but what provides good experiences for consumers is always going to massively benefit makers of consumer software. Consistency, accountability and standards are very important to make that happen.
I mean the apocalyptic scenario happens and MS stops unauthorized distribution of desktop apps (which isn't happening but let's pretend because everyone has active imaginations). Are we going to tell them to heed the warning of that failed iOS experiment? Or that the game console industry has been hurting game makers for the last 30 years? People will always prefer platforms like Linux? This is rather insane. I know people love to get into principal battles in the software community but what provides good experiences for consumers is always going to massively benefit makers of consumer software. Consistency, accountability and standards are very important to make that happen.
My first reaction is...common sense. Making your customers jump through arbitrary and confusing extra hoops for some intangible reason that they won't understand is not good business. "You just bought our game! Now get the app! Simply navigate to Windows Store... download the app. Create an account and password.... add your friends... now you can look at all the great live stuff we made...but you can't launch from here, go back to your other tile." compared to "You just bought our game...now you can look at all the great live stuff we made."
Secondly, clearly Microsoft could stop it? At any time? "I'm sorry, we are currently unable to certify your companion app and will be unable to do so in the future - perhaps you might consider simply placing your game on the Windows StoreTM and giving us a cut of your revenue?"
What a government might do, ten years after it would have made a difference.
I am hoping that people grow up and stop defending something that clearly has problems.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I personally do not have anything against a Windows App Store and delivering applications and most importantly OS and application updates through said store. Instead, it is something I welcome. People should find it as easy and as immediate as possible to keep the OS and all apps updated as this is perhaps the biggest security risk for modern OS's which are pretty secure in and of themselves compared to 5-10 years ago.
The problem with Metro apps vs desktop apps is that desktop apps are going to be more and more limited compared to Metro apps as time goes on as MS will make the new API's and UI features Metro exclusive probably.
I would have liked MS to use a more pragmatic approach, which strangely enough some people might say, "control freak" Apple did indeed take (although a few API's are reserved for Mac App Store apps, but those MAS exclusive features are relatively few).
On MacOS X, pardon OS X, you are limited to the sandbox + entitlements system only if you ship as on the Mac App Store, but the default setting for Gatekeeper, which people should keep IMHO, is not bad at all:
1.) applications that are not signed are blocked, unless the user right clicks on the app and selects Open from the menu: this helps less technical savvy users from installing just about anything without a second thought (or have it happen behind their backs) and is very quick to bypass for power users who take responsibility for it.
2.) Gatekeeper can revoke the permission for a signed app to be installed by Apple if the app is found to be a security threat, is reported as such and this is verified, as the signature can revoked. Power users can still install the app as I was saying earlier on.
The problem with Metro apps vs desktop apps is that desktop apps are going to be more and more limited compared to Metro apps as time goes on as MS will make the new API's and UI features Metro exclusive probably.
I would have liked MS to use a more pragmatic approach, which strangely enough some people might say, "control freak" Apple did indeed take (although a few API's are reserved for Mac App Store apps, but those MAS exclusive features are relatively few).
On MacOS X, pardon OS X, you are limited to the sandbox + entitlements system only if you ship as on the Mac App Store, but the default setting for Gatekeeper, which people should keep IMHO, is not bad at all:
1.) applications that are not signed are blocked, unless the user right clicks on the app and selects Open from the menu: this helps less technical savvy users from installing just about anything without a second thought (or have it happen behind their backs) and is very quick to bypass for power users who take responsibility for it.
2.) Gatekeeper can revoke the permission for a signed app to be installed by Apple if the app is found to be a security threat, is reported as such and this is verified, as the signature can revoked. Power users can still install the app as I was saying earlier on.
Or you could stop using marketer level BS to demand the PC become something it is not!
Killing a whole ton of things that make the PC good!
If you mean the "Windows 9" claims, then show me where he's stating them as fact. He isn't.